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feos wrote:
Я тут перечитывал старье и решил забрать свои слова назад лол. Я не знаю сколько еще меня придется ждать, так что если хочешь то сабмить, пусть хоть что-то будет. А судьи пусть решают, но я думаю там все норм будет.
После стольких лет отправлять старый мувик было бы печально. Не хочется выкидывать те улучшения что ты нашел на первых двух уровнях.
Может всё-таки продолжишь тест с улучшениям ещё немного? Хотя бы ещё на один уровень вперед.
Самый сложный и интересный момент в игре для оптимизации это уровень 3-2, там где при помощи дрона надо забираться на фонари. Для этого требуется архисложная манипуляция поведением дрона. Мне очень хотелось дождаться твоего подхода к этому вопросу.
Моё предложение следующем: Если доделаешь тест-улучшение до вышеупомянутого момента с дроном, то после этого могу подключиться я и записать всё остальное до конца игры. И этот улучшенный тест отправим.
Спешки нет. Даю год на размышление, потом спрошу ещё раз. Если и через год решишь, что шансов на продолжение банкета нет и не предвидится, то тогда печально вздохнув можно будет отправить мой старый тест, просто что бы хоть что-то было в архиве.
I show you how deep the rabbit hole goes.
Current projects: NES: Tetris "fastest 999999" (improvement, with r57shell)
Genesis: Adventures of Batman & Robin (with Truncated); Pocahontas; Comix Zone (improvement); Mickey Mania (improvement); RoboCop versus The Terminator (improvement); Gargoyles (with feos)
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feos wrote:
I think we can finally rename this branch to just "maximum score" since that's a Standard goal on its own now.
Nowadays even weak human players can reach 2M+ scores. So to say that 999999 is maximum score for TAS is nonsense.
So better to keep "maximum score" branch in reserve to be able use it in the future for case if someone would like to make 1 hour long TAS with reaching trully maximum score before game is crushed or warped back to level 0.
I show you how deep the rabbit hole goes.
Current projects: NES: Tetris "fastest 999999" (improvement, with r57shell)
Genesis: Adventures of Batman & Robin (with Truncated); Pocahontas; Comix Zone (improvement); Mickey Mania (improvement); RoboCop versus The Terminator (improvement); Gargoyles (with feos)
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Moving charge trick is just beautiful. Excellent TAS. Voted yes.
EZGames69 wrote:
Changed the game name to be consistent with the SNES publication
I think it is wrong decision to rename it. Another World is main name of this game. It is more famous and recognizable than Out of This World.
Besides you even can see correct name of game appear at title screen.
I show you how deep the rabbit hole goes.
Current projects: NES: Tetris "fastest 999999" (improvement, with r57shell)
Genesis: Adventures of Batman & Robin (with Truncated); Pocahontas; Comix Zone (improvement); Mickey Mania (improvement); RoboCop versus The Terminator (improvement); Gargoyles (with feos)
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Truncated wrote:
shouldn't you put the final slot in the middle, so that you only have to rotate the final I-piece, and not also have to move it to the right-most edge? Then you could end input slightly earlier.
Very good question! You are absolutely correct, indeed if make final tetris at central hole it can be 4 frames faster for shortening input comparimg to rightmost hole.
Of course we researched this opportuniry in last two years. It even has own codename "Last trick".
However in reality turned out that rightmost hole is saving a lot more frames (about ~16 frames) during buildig Tree#2 crown than "Last trick" is able to save at the end for any alternative holes solutions.
I show you how deep the rabbit hole goes.
Current projects: NES: Tetris "fastest 999999" (improvement, with r57shell)
Genesis: Adventures of Batman & Robin (with Truncated); Pocahontas; Comix Zone (improvement); Mickey Mania (improvement); RoboCop versus The Terminator (improvement); Gargoyles (with feos)
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Personman wrote:
Oh my god, I remember delightedly poring over this post two years ago. What a lovely surprise to log in for the first time in a while and see it on the bench. And how much more beautiful it is to see than I ever imagined! Thank you both for all your hard work.
Yeah this TAS took a really long time to complete. Tetris is such a complex game that it's optimization is an absurdly difficult task. Very happy to finally finish this project.
There are several new tricks and improvements in strategy what didn't mention in this post. But as base line it is still ~90% correct.
Submission text with additional explanations will be added in a next few days.
I show you how deep the rabbit hole goes.
Current projects: NES: Tetris "fastest 999999" (improvement, with r57shell)
Genesis: Adventures of Batman & Robin (with Truncated); Pocahontas; Comix Zone (improvement); Mickey Mania (improvement); RoboCop versus The Terminator (improvement); Gargoyles (with feos)
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Just for case if someone would like to also update TAS for sequel of this game (http://tasvideos.org/3620M.html)
I found new better solution for 08-06 level. Here it is:
Solution: 260 Moves, 90 Pushes*
uuuuullDDllllllUdrUdrUdrUdrDDllUdrUruUdrrDDLUruLUrurrd
LrdddddddddllllllllllUUrrDurDurDurDuruuLLDurUdDrdDlllluUURDluUU
RDuUrrrrrdDDDDLDlllllullUURDldRDluuuURlURlUUUdRUdDDDDDldddll
uuuuuuuuuRldRldRldRldRldRldRldRDldRurrrrrrrruruLruLUUUruUrrdLrd
LrdLrdLrdLrdLrdLDrdL
*Flip vertically if necessary
I show you how deep the rabbit hole goes.
Current projects: NES: Tetris "fastest 999999" (improvement, with r57shell)
Genesis: Adventures of Batman & Robin (with Truncated); Pocahontas; Comix Zone (improvement); Mickey Mania (improvement); RoboCop versus The Terminator (improvement); Gargoyles (with feos)
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brunovalads wrote:
Such a marvelous run! Great use of the glitches thru the entire game.
SPOILER QUESTION: Is a "all stars" (well i guess a "6 stars", since 1 takes 2 hours to obtain and the last one requires all previous stars) run on the plans?
Why such important question hidden in spoilers? It need to be asked openly! If stars topic be skipped again we risk wait another ten years until someone pick this wonderfull game in next time. To get stars as fast as possible require extreme crazy strategies far beyond humans abilities. Only TAS is able to uncover true beauty of these extra puzzles.
I really hope that keylie the greatest hero of Braid has plans to make also TAS for "6 Stars" category.
I show you how deep the rabbit hole goes.
Current projects: NES: Tetris "fastest 999999" (improvement, with r57shell)
Genesis: Adventures of Batman & Robin (with Truncated); Pocahontas; Comix Zone (improvement); Mickey Mania (improvement); RoboCop versus The Terminator (improvement); Gargoyles (with feos)
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Amazing improvements!!!
Grab cancel is true superpower. Springload is crazy. All other improvements are also very cool.
Also very happy that sub19 mins in-game time is achived :)
This best TAS in this year in my humble opinion.
I show you how deep the rabbit hole goes.
Current projects: NES: Tetris "fastest 999999" (improvement, with r57shell)
Genesis: Adventures of Batman & Robin (with Truncated); Pocahontas; Comix Zone (improvement); Mickey Mania (improvement); RoboCop versus The Terminator (improvement); Gargoyles (with feos)
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Finally Genesis version is submitted here! I've been waiting this TAS for years.
Thanks to SBDWolf for making dream come true. Yes vote.
I show you how deep the rabbit hole goes.
Current projects: NES: Tetris "fastest 999999" (improvement, with r57shell)
Genesis: Adventures of Batman & Robin (with Truncated); Pocahontas; Comix Zone (improvement); Mickey Mania (improvement); RoboCop versus The Terminator (improvement); Gargoyles (with feos)
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Brilliant TAS! New glitch is awesome. Amazing improvements.
I show you how deep the rabbit hole goes.
Current projects: NES: Tetris "fastest 999999" (improvement, with r57shell)
Genesis: Adventures of Batman & Robin (with Truncated); Pocahontas; Comix Zone (improvement); Mickey Mania (improvement); RoboCop versus The Terminator (improvement); Gargoyles (with feos)
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What a pleasant surprise! Excellent TAS.
I show you how deep the rabbit hole goes.
Current projects: NES: Tetris "fastest 999999" (improvement, with r57shell)
Genesis: Adventures of Batman & Robin (with Truncated); Pocahontas; Comix Zone (improvement); Mickey Mania (improvement); RoboCop versus The Terminator (improvement); Gargoyles (with feos)
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Challenger wrote:
Very cool strategy!
Working on this game is so, so laborious... and I never expected to see more than 10 seconds of improvement.
Looking forward for the lastest version :)
The strategy that used in test-TAS will look like a naive childish plan compared to the true beauty of Machiavelli's plan which we dare to put into final form.
If everything will goes perfectly may be even 15 seconds of improvement can be achieved.
Holy Grail of Tetris TAS is to get 4 "I"-tetromino in row at very end. It is really big timesaver, at least another 100+ frames can be saved this way. However to fulfill the conditions that allow to get such flawless ending need to do absolutely insane things.
Besides getting grail itself, there are also multiple other smaller treasures here and there each of them require non trivial changes to get these improvements works.
Hell a lot of preparation work is still needed before it be possible to start recording final version. Tetris is like abyss deeper you go the darker it become.
Fortunately comrade r57shell is crazy enough to jump into deepest parts of Tetris abyss and illuminate it with using bright flash of his programming skills.
I show you how deep the rabbit hole goes.
Current projects: NES: Tetris "fastest 999999" (improvement, with r57shell)
Genesis: Adventures of Batman & Robin (with Truncated); Pocahontas; Comix Zone (improvement); Mickey Mania (improvement); RoboCop versus The Terminator (improvement); Gargoyles (with feos)
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Personman wrote:
Heya, just wanted to say I'm excited for this TAS and thoroughly enjoy your updates :)
A few days ago we finished the first full test-TAS:
Link to video
It is about 11.7 seconds faster than currently-published TAS by Acmlm. 400+ frames were saved before transition to level 19 and also 300+ frames saved after transition.
Keep in mind that it is only rough test-TAS. It is far from perfect. A lot of work still wait ahead. With some changes in strategy and in tactics yet a couple of seconds will be possible to squeeze.
Further improvements that we want to apply are too complex to explain and even more complex to implement. The only one thing can be said for sure - final form of new Tetris TAS will blow your mind.
I show you how deep the rabbit hole goes.
Current projects: NES: Tetris "fastest 999999" (improvement, with r57shell)
Genesis: Adventures of Batman & Robin (with Truncated); Pocahontas; Comix Zone (improvement); Mickey Mania (improvement); RoboCop versus The Terminator (improvement); Gargoyles (with feos)
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Recenly r57shell got interested in Tetris project. He is very skilled coder. Insead of re-creating old Acmlm approach, he proposed to try completely new approach. More advanced.
He made generator that can search not Left and Right cases separately, but all possible 3-tetris packing sequences as one whole. Later bot with brute force can autocomplete any case from this data base.
That generator found even more cases than i was able to find by hands. Like in all other "Man vs. Machine" competitions the man came last. So case lists in my previous post now incomplete and outdated.
New aproach has great potential. With such powerfull tools will be possible execute new TAS even better.
It will not play Tetris like god.
It will not even play Tetris like devil.
Nope.
In new TAS it will be play of Tetris beyond good and evil.
I show you how deep the rabbit hole goes.
Current projects: NES: Tetris "fastest 999999" (improvement, with r57shell)
Genesis: Adventures of Batman & Robin (with Truncated); Pocahontas; Comix Zone (improvement); Mickey Mania (improvement); RoboCop versus The Terminator (improvement); Gargoyles (with feos)
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Watched this TAS with great pleasure.
Good work DreamYao! Yes vote.
@Spikestuff
Instead of complaining that improvements are not big enough try to make your own movie with a larger time difference. Or silently enjoy this version.
I show you how deep the rabbit hole goes.
Current projects: NES: Tetris "fastest 999999" (improvement, with r57shell)
Genesis: Adventures of Batman & Robin (with Truncated); Pocahontas; Comix Zone (improvement); Mickey Mania (improvement); RoboCop versus The Terminator (improvement); Gargoyles (with feos)
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r57shell wrote:
Вместо того чтобы писать бота я решил побрутать то, что ты руками смотрел... Получилось 2666979 заполнений для hole 0 и при этом, если верить моей программе 359213 из них имеют шансы на то чтобы собираться
Крайне интересный подход!
Однако все далеко не так просто, механика игры накладывает ряд ограничений, которые значительно уменьшают все это многообразие, на много порядков:
1)Важны лишь те конфигурации, которые возможно построить на скорости 18 уровня. Из-за лимитированности движений 99%+ конфигурации построить невозможно.
2)Что бы получить 3-тетрис (который по очкам засчитывается за полноценный) последняя завершающая гештальт фигура обязательно должна быть I, J, или L, причем располагаться по шестому ряду.
3)Есть еще дополнительные нюансы, но лень расписывать все тонкости.
Оба приведенных выше примера не проходят сразу по нескольким пунктам. Поэтому боюсь на практике этот массив данных практически бесполезен, поскольку в конечном счете все равно надо перебирать вручную отделяя зерна от плевел.
Раз уже сгенерировал, то можешь кинуть этот архив мне на мыло: trust-no-one@mail.ru посмотрю конечно, но по причинам, что я описал выше, смысла в неотсортированных данных практически нет. Так что генерировать для других 9 дыр не надо.
В любом случае, спасибо за проделанную работу.
Сейчас стадия отсева полезных вариантов уже пройдена. Используя редукционный подход с разделением на левую и правую часть по определенной системе. А из половинок при помощи комбинаторики легко собирать полную картину всех легальных вариантов заполнений.
P.S. Если ты действительно любишь тетрис и есть желание заняться этой темой серьезно, то присоединяйся к команде. Возможная глубина оптимизации этой игры просто нечеловеческая.
Мой нынешний план улучшения, который я хочу исполнить это лишь небольшой шаг приближения к истине, если ты полноценно присоединишся, то можно будет попробовать еще более сложные схемы улучшения от которых волосы стынут в жилах.
I show you how deep the rabbit hole goes.
Current projects: NES: Tetris "fastest 999999" (improvement, with r57shell)
Genesis: Adventures of Batman & Robin (with Truncated); Pocahontas; Comix Zone (improvement); Mickey Mania (improvement); RoboCop versus The Terminator (improvement); Gargoyles (with feos)
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Ситуация изменилась, мой забаненный помощник написал, что через месяц-другой выйдет из депрессии и все таки сделает мне брутфорс.
Так что может быть моя сделка с дьяволом закончится благополучно. Буду ждать.
Извините за ложную тревогу, на текущий момент помощь с тетрисом больше не нужна.
Всем всех благ и хороших тасов!
I show you how deep the rabbit hole goes.
Current projects: NES: Tetris "fastest 999999" (improvement, with r57shell)
Genesis: Adventures of Batman & Robin (with Truncated); Pocahontas; Comix Zone (improvement); Mickey Mania (improvement); RoboCop versus The Terminator (improvement); Gargoyles (with feos)
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Тут нужен не совсем бот. Вот процедура таинства как она описана в опубликованном 10 лет назад тасе.
Acmlm wrote:
Find all possible ways to fit blocks into each side (or as many as I can, I got a few dozen)
Get the player input for each of them (and how many frames it takes to place each block)
Also get the input to delay the next block by any amount of frames (up to about 10, and pausing when left+right+down isn't enough)
Using the above, code the bruteforcer in C, and use it for a (mostly) easy ride to level 19 and above.
Последовательности левых и правых частей у меня есть. Теперь их стало знаменательно больше, несколько сотен вместо дюжин, но в остальном ничто не мешает придерживаться старой схемы.
Понадобится ввести инпут для каждого случая - не вопрос, покажите куда и я введу.
Самая загадочная и сложная часть это брутфорсер, который как я понял проверяет все легальные последовательности тетрамино вперемешку из левых и правых частей одновременно и высчитывает необходимое число дополнительных кадров задержки для построения каждого суммарного варианта. Остается просто выбирать тот вариант, где эти задержки минимальны.
---
Может все-таки удастся повторить эту методу?
I show you how deep the rabbit hole goes.
Current projects: NES: Tetris "fastest 999999" (improvement, with r57shell)
Genesis: Adventures of Batman & Robin (with Truncated); Pocahontas; Comix Zone (improvement); Mickey Mania (improvement); RoboCop versus The Terminator (improvement); Gargoyles (with feos)
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Про тетрис. Тут такая петрушка приключилась, в общем мой забаненный помощник окончательно потерял мотивацию заниматься тасом и покинул проект так и не написав мне обещанный генератор.
План улучшения текущего ТАСа давно готов. Теоретическая часть тоже завершена, я нашел все легальные методы построения 3-тетриса для всех 10 дыр. (Что бы оценить масштаб проделанной работы взгляните на картинки в последнем сообщении, что я недавно запостил в общем NESовском форуме.) Данные о последовательностях тетрамино для левых и правых частей так же есть в текстовом формате. Осталось только загрузить все эти данные в скрипты, отдельный скрипт для каждой дыры, что бы генератор мог искать наикратчайший путь построения с минимальными задержками. Вот только в скриптах я не секу и самостоятельно сделать это не могу.
Тетрис занимает особое место в истории компьютерных игр. Он заслуживает великолепно сделанного ТАСа. А учитывая что придумал тетрис наш соотечественник Пажитнов, то будет дополнительно приятно вернуть рекорд на родину.
Поэтому вначале я решил спросить помощи тут, возможно многоуважаемые товарищи feos или r57shell или еще кто-нибудь из наших мастеров скриптописания смогут помочь решить проблему с генератором?
Если тут желающих не найдется, то придется искать нового помощника в общем форуме... Ну а если и там никто не отзовется, то в принципе я могу записать улучшение опубликованного ТАСа голыми руками и без генератора, однако это получится значительно хуже, чем возможно, далеко до оптимального. Так как в грубом переборе вариантов человеку (даже такому гику как я) никогда не сравниться с машинным перебором. Очень хотелось бы сделать все по высшей пробе с генератором, а не абы как.
I show you how deep the rabbit hole goes.
Current projects: NES: Tetris "fastest 999999" (improvement, with r57shell)
Genesis: Adventures of Batman & Robin (with Truncated); Pocahontas; Comix Zone (improvement); Mickey Mania (improvement); RoboCop versus The Terminator (improvement); Gargoyles (with feos)
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ChallengingRiptide wrote:
Why doesn't this piece in this image tuck?
Not sure your question is serious or joke (or i misunderstood it). But seems you simply press L too early. Try to press it at frame 1092 and it will tuck.
---
Some news about TAS:
1)Discovered a few new useful tricks:
a)Pausing trick allow not only "I piece" at left but also two "L pieces" (and some other). It expand 3-tetris packing possibilities at left side.
b)With help of LR input is possible to make two consecutive inputs! It alow to move pieces further to right. It significantly expand possibilities packing at right side.
2)Turn out that placement of Tree is sigificant. It can affect playfienld. Invisivle blocks can appear above top that can ruin good attempt.
The playfield starts at 0x0400 in RAM. That's the topmost visible row, let's say row 0. Row 1 starts at 0x040A (10 further in hex) and so on. When pieces are moving in rows -1 and -2, it'll check at 0x0400 - 10 and - 20, but that underflows to being 0x0400 + 246 or + 236. That's 0x04EC and 0x04F6.
Normally these values would only get filled by blocks you place, but the glitchy triple-tetris pushes the bottom most row. Due to it being "+246" instead of "+250", the invisibles are on the right, offset by 4 spots from where the tree is.
So needed to be very careful with tree placement to avoid problems with invisible blocks.
3)I finished complete guides for 3-tetris packing for all 10 holes:
Hole#10Hole#09Hole#08Hole#07Hole#06Hole#05Hole#04Hole#03Hole#02Hole#01
This data need to be load load into lua script(s) to be able use bruteforce. As soon as loading be ready actual TAS can start recording.
4)Also i found a lot better RNG start for first tetris. Now current best start for first knee is 68 frames ahead of acmlm.
I show you how deep the rabbit hole goes.
Current projects: NES: Tetris "fastest 999999" (improvement, with r57shell)
Genesis: Adventures of Batman & Robin (with Truncated); Pocahontas; Comix Zone (improvement); Mickey Mania (improvement); RoboCop versus The Terminator (improvement); Gargoyles (with feos)
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EZGames69 wrote:
I really want to see this TAS in full force.
Currently project in long-term stasis but it is not abandoned and one day it be finished. It is one of my favorite Sega Genesis games. So i really want to make full force TAS for it.
After completing improvement for "fastest 999999" in NES Tetris i will try to reanimate Adventures of Batman & Robin after years of lethargic sleep.
Upd: Tried to reanimate it right now, perhaps i can slowly work on it parallely with tetris project.
Defeated that damn boss so stage 3-3 is finally finished:
Link to video
I show you how deep the rabbit hole goes.
Current projects: NES: Tetris "fastest 999999" (improvement, with r57shell)
Genesis: Adventures of Batman & Robin (with Truncated); Pocahontas; Comix Zone (improvement); Mickey Mania (improvement); RoboCop versus The Terminator (improvement); Gargoyles (with feos)
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Great improvement for great game.
I show you how deep the rabbit hole goes.
Current projects: NES: Tetris "fastest 999999" (improvement, with r57shell)
Genesis: Adventures of Batman & Robin (with Truncated); Pocahontas; Comix Zone (improvement); Mickey Mania (improvement); RoboCop versus The Terminator (improvement); Gargoyles (with feos)
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Skilled player
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Joined: 11/26/2011
Posts: 655
Location: RU
Due to unexpected circumstances with recent ban of Blazephlozard at TASVideos, our discussion here is no longer possible.
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But project is not canceled. We will continue to work via email conversation.
Fun fact, a month ago i wrote:
Archanfel wrote:
In current TAS Acmlm played tetris like god.
In the new TAS we will play tetris like devil.
Seems i was a prophet - to make good Tetris TAS need to make deal with devil.
I show you how deep the rabbit hole goes.
Current projects: NES: Tetris "fastest 999999" (improvement, with r57shell)
Genesis: Adventures of Batman & Robin (with Truncated); Pocahontas; Comix Zone (improvement); Mickey Mania (improvement); RoboCop versus The Terminator (improvement); Gargoyles (with feos)
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Skilled player
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Joined: 11/26/2011
Posts: 655
Location: RU
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Awesome glitch!!!
Hopefully keylie will make new improved TAS. Would be great to see new stuff.
Still remember old good times on Speed Demos Archive forum when first TAS was only planned. It was very fun:) Amazing that already 7 years have passed since publication. Need to refresh memories and play Braid again.
@keylie
If you going to make new TAS please also test this crazy idea:
Perhaps in level 3-6 "Irreversible" somehow can be possible to get this piece without waiting bridge and survive on backway with help of rabbits or/and goombas as step stones? In case of success it can save a several seconds.
I show you how deep the rabbit hole goes.
Current projects: NES: Tetris "fastest 999999" (improvement, with r57shell)
Genesis: Adventures of Batman & Robin (with Truncated); Pocahontas; Comix Zone (improvement); Mickey Mania (improvement); RoboCop versus The Terminator (improvement); Gargoyles (with feos)
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Skilled player
(1435)
Joined: 11/26/2011
Posts: 655
Location: RU
Yeah 5th-8th knees will be will be cleared at level 19 speed.
For ending input earlier 6th column is perfect - just single rotation, no extra movements needed. And yes multiple "I" pieces at end for sure will be troubleful to find RNG.
But now we very very far from endgame. So too early to discuss it in detals. So far we need to choose debut :) What starting RNG is best for first knee is most actual now.
Blazephlozard wrote:
Hmm, yeah, it'd have to be two J's... but what about this?
That "T"-piece at very rightmost corner is impossible to place like this.
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Small update:
Found 3 new cases for L+1 subgroup for hole#10 (and few other holes):
I-J-S-T-T-I
I-J-S-S-J-I
I-J-S-L-I-I
And respectively 3 their twins with "J" at end for L+0 subgroup for cental hole (and few other holes):
I show you how deep the rabbit hole goes.
Current projects: NES: Tetris "fastest 999999" (improvement, with r57shell)
Genesis: Adventures of Batman & Robin (with Truncated); Pocahontas; Comix Zone (improvement); Mickey Mania (improvement); RoboCop versus The Terminator (improvement); Gargoyles (with feos)
---
But project is not canceled. We will continue to work via email conversation.
Fun fact, a month ago i wrote:
Perhaps in level 3-6 "Irreversible" somehow can be possible to get this piece without waiting bridge and survive on backway with help of rabbits or/and goombas as step stones? In case of success it can save a several seconds.
