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petrie911 wrote:
One more category could be Game Boy/GBA games, as there are a lot of those. Another is the horribly glitched runs. There are a number of runs that use glitches to skip pretty much the entire game, and a lot of them are quite fun to watch, with the added benefit that they are generally very short. Things like the Link's Awakening DX and especially the Pokemon Yellow run are just awesomely hilarious and really should be seen. If they don't deserve stars, we should at least have some way of acknowledging these sorts of TAS.
23 seems a bit restrictive. perhaps 25 or even 30 could allow just a few more deserving games to get stars. Actually, I'd prefer that there was no strict limit on starred games, just strict requirements, but that doesn't seem to be the way the community wants to go.
I didn't have a seperate gb/gba section since a lot of its great runs are already present in the other categories. Franchises like Sonic advance, the castlevania series, metroid series, spiderman 3, Links Adventure DX and ninja five-0 are already listed. There were no other suggestions at all sofar for a gb/gba section... and even if there was one, it would be a single TAS in one group. I don't think GBA games will be especially underrepresented in the starlist. If you are have strong arguments for the pokemon game, it could be in the special concept group, as a skipped game (although we already have two of those there).
My aim was not to have more than 25... so that won't happen very fast. Too many stars, and the concept is gone. I think currently aiming for 23 is good, since once the list is done, there can always be arguments like "this run would really complete the list" or a new published movie could come along, where it could be strange to obsolete any of the then current stars. So for those cases, I think it's good to aim for 23 for now, and have 1 or 2 stars in reserve. There is no strict limit... but it aren't called special stars for no reason ;)
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DrJones wrote:
For groups I suggest the following two categories of runs. I must say beforehand that in my experience (about 30 people) they are either wildly popular or heavily disliked. (Marked with Asterisks the ones I would suggest)
1. Glitch Festival
Examples: *Sonic 3 & Knuckles, *Rygar (either version), Zelda II, *Mega Man, Pokemon, NES Strider, Comix Zone, *0-star Mario 64, Zelda 2nd Quest.
2. Skips most of the game
Examples: I think Baxter knows all already, but specially the ones that also belong to the first category, like the Castlevania ones.
The group that disliked those two categories enjoyed the most the luck manipulation ones, and the ones that shown amazing skillplay/playing with death, while not using any bug/glitch that looked "cheap".
3. Exhibition/plays with death:
Examples: *Ninja Gaiden I & II, Arkanoid, Ghost n Goblins, *Mario 3, *SMW, *River City Ransom playaround, Genesis Golden Axe, *SNES Prince of Persia, Super Bomberman 2 (last levels, mostly), Gunstar Heroes, *Sonic 2 and Ninja Five-O.
However, both groups enjoyed any game they had previously played.
1. Glitchfest: All of the suggestions you made here are already in other groups, and some of them seem currently likely to get a star. So I don't think such a group it needed to get variety... as these type of runs will be represented already anyway, and secondly, every TAS can only be in one group, and they are better fit in the groups they are now in.
2. Skips most of the game: A TAS like Super Mario 64 0 star is currently already on the "instant star" list (as pretty much everyone wants this to get a star). This means this category already has a TAS that somewhat represents it. It is also however a special concept, and if people feel like this concept is underrepresented, they are able to vote for Kings Bounty in the special concept section (In my opinion though, since it's already represented somewhat with the 0 star run, there might be other special concepts which might be better for variety purposes than Kings Bounty).
3. Plays with death: Once again, the movies you mentioned are already in probably better suited groups, and it's very likely that this aspect will be represented with one (or more) of those movies.
DrJones wrote:
In addition, I suggest 3-players "Lost Vikings" as an alternative to 4-players "Nightmare on Elmstreet".
Ok, I'll add it for now... although I would generally like it better if each movie represented a different concept there, since the concept seems to be the important thing about that group.
Edit: I've added which special concept these movies have.
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Bezman wrote:
Baxter wrote:
(if people say "I'm against deciding that later, since I want to vote on a particular version, THEN I'll list both... for now, I'll just list the game.)
I don't think it makes sense to vote on a game as opposed to a particular movie. If voting on a game, it's essentially getting the combined votes that all its movies would get.
Ok, that makes sense. Changed it back to 100 CD version, since it had the most suggestions currently. I feel like listing both is somehow strange, and they won't both get stars anyway... If there are more people in favor of the other run, I'll either add it too, or change the 100CD version... or whatever is best.
Bezman wrote:
Also, there's a few movies there that I've not seen. Can we be given a couple of weeks to watch them? Normally, I'd only need a day or two, but presentations are due and other folk may also have real-life complications.
Well, there is no particular hurry. I'd hate to commit to a certain time... but I am gonna watch/rewatch some movies also, so don't worry about it too much.
Bezman wrote:
2 movies I feel should be nominees: Your own Megaman 3,4,5,6 and HappyLee's SMB walkthrough.
Yeah, I didn't list a few of the suggestions posted in this thread. Maybe I should have eleborated more on them. I didn't list:
Super Mario Bros 1: Only person who argued in favor of it was Klmz, while there were arguments from quite a few people against it having a star.
Super Mario Bros 1 Walkathon: You were the only one who argued in favor of this, and I think very, very little people would have it in their star list. I'm 99% sure that the people arguing against the regular SMB1 run feel even more strongly about this run. If Bezman gets support in his suggestion from others, I'll could add it though.
Mega Man 3,4,5,6: MMX+MMX2 in the concept section already represents this concept. MM3456 might take the concept a step further, but by far the most people sofar argued that MMX+MMX2 was far more watchable. It seemed like it was pretty much agreed on generally that if this concept gets a star, that it should be the MMX+MMX2 TAS. In order for it to get on the list, more people will need to be in favor of it, instead of MMX+MMX2.
Four other TASes that were suggested by single people (by arkiandruski and Klmz... they suggested a LOT) that weren't added:
Marble Madness
Snake Rattle n Roll
Super Bomberman 2
Tetris 'fast 999999'
Super Mario land
If reasons for these are needed, I'll provide them, or if there are arguments why I should add them, let me know.
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Note to Derakon: I got very fast some reactions on why Sonic games only had 1 star assigned... and while I did this both for variety purposes and since I didn't want to distribute too many over groups right away (having one or two as backup stars is never bad :P), it seems like a great majority is in favor of two stars for the sonic games, so I changed it to two stars, instead of one, like written in your post.
Bablo wrote:
Why doesn't Megaman5 belong to the Megaman list?
It's indeed not very clear in this setting. I mainly formed groups first, then named them. Mega Man 1 and Mega Man 2 are in a group since probably either of them should at least have a star. There are quite a few similar aspects though, so probably not both. If I had for instance listed them in the NES section, and added an extra potential star to the NES section, then they might both be starred, which would be bad for variety.
MegaMan 5 is quite different than Megaman 1 and 2, and the NES section was first called "allround NES TASes, and I figured it fitted better there...
In a same way you might wanna ask why Rockman and Forte isn't listed there ;) It was just how groups were formed. If you think it should be changed, feel free to say so though.
Derakon wrote:
I actually prefer the R&F Forte run (with the insane lightning zipping) over the 100 CDs run
I'll remove the "100 CDs" part. If it gets voted on for a star, it can always be decided on then what version of the game gets the star... It was listed this way since most people suggested the 100 CD version (if people say "I'm against deciding that later, since I want to vote on a particular version, THEN I'll list both... for now, I'll just list the game.)
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I'll post a tentative list of the groups and how many stars there might be reserved for the groups. Nothing is final or anything. I will be happy to hear suggestions for:
- Adding/removing/changing groups
- Adding/removing TASes to existing groups
- Changing the number of stars reserved for groups
- Anything you feel is important/overlooked
Opinions about movies in the group and which one should get a star is obviously also appreciated.
With the current, tentative, amount of stars assigned to the groups, there are a total of 23 stars, which is one more than the current amount (although currently Super Metroid doesn't have a star). Adding one or two might be possible.
Instant stars (4 Stars)SMB3 any%
Excitebike
Super Mario 64 "0 star"
GradiusSuper Mario World (1 Star)Super Mario World "small only"
Super Mario World any%
Super Mario World 96exit
Super Demo World 120exitSonic (2 Stars)Sonic 3 & Knuckles
Sonic Advance 2
Sonic The Hedgehog
Sonic The Hedgehog 2Metroid (2 Stars)Super Metroid 100%
Metroid Zero mission 100%
Metroid any%Megaman (1 Star)Mega Man 1
Mega Man 2Zelda (1 Star)Legend of Zelda
A Link to the Past
Links Awakening DXCastlevania (2 Stars)Castlevania
Castlevania: HoD
Castlevania: CotM
Super Castlevania IVWire TAS (1 Star)Ninja Five-0
Umihara Kawase
Spiderman 3
Bionic CommandoSpecial concept (2 Stars)MMX+MMX2 (2 games with one input)
Kings Bounty (skipped game by luck manipulation)
Monopoly (skipped game by luck manipulation)
Nightmare on Elmstreet “4player” (4 players)
Lost Vikings (3 players)
River City Ransom (playaround)NES games (3 Stars)Ninja Gaiden 2
Darkwing Duck
Mega Man 5
Gimmick!
Super Mario Bros 2
Journey to Silius
Batman
Arkanoid “Warpless”
Battle of Olympus
Legend of Zelda 2
Battletoads “2 player warpless”SNES games (2 Stars)Super Mario World 2: Yoshi’s Island
Rockman and Forte "100 CDs"
Sparkster
Donkey Kong Country 1 any%
Biker Mice from Mars
The MaskGenesis (1 Star)Gunstar Heroes “ 2 player”
Ecco (which run?)
Dynamite headdy
Golden Axe
Comix ZoneN64 (1 Star)Majora’s Mask
Goldeneye
Mischief Makers
Super Mario 64 120 star
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Derakon wrote:
So I'm not certain that "games with grappling hooks" is a good "category" to use here, since there's really only two games that take that element seriously
I've listed 4 nominees currently:
Ninja Five-0
Umihara Kawase
Spiderman 3
Bionic Commando
I think all of them 'take the wire element seriously'. I also think it's good to have this kind of category, just to be sure that at least one game with such physics gets represented in the star list... which is good for variety purpose; this kind of movement is generally hard to do in real time, and produces pretty distinct and awesome movies.
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Bezman wrote:
Debating within each group seems like it'll definitely help streamline all the thoughts. Rather than vote within each group, why not just use the groups as a way to force focused discussion
Yeah, it is more meant to cause discussion and draw conclusions from that than voting.
Bezman wrote:
after you bring forward a group
It can't really be done 1 by 1. Some TASes could technically be in multiple groups and it would cause problems. I don't plan on nominations for groups specifically either. I hope that there will be more discussion about which runs should be starred, and then from all suggestions, arguments and whatnot, I will post all groups with their TASes and possible amount of stars at once.
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DrJones wrote:
I think Umihara Kawase makes for a bad starred movie as the game is obscure, the graphics are weird, and the gameplay is uncomprehensible.
Being an obscure game shouldn't disqualify it for a star. The graphics are maybe different, but still nice, the gameplay is quite straightforward... everyone knows what is going on. I'm not saying it should have a star, as it has some though competition with some others... but I do disagree with your statements.
DrJones wrote:
I'd vote to bring back the star on Monopoly as it's very short and the best example of luck manipulation in a well-known game that is infamous for how long it usually takes. Also, it's a game that people that have never owned a console knows.
Are you talking about the regular version, or the one with 4 cpu's?
DrJones wrote:
I miss the stars on the rygar runs, oh well. :(
I'll take this as a suggestion. Same question: warpless version or warp glitch version?
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Satoryu wrote:
Baxter wrote:
We also don't have a 16 star category at super mario 64 anymore.
i find this comparison moot. this run opts not to use a glitch that the 6% uses. the 16 Star and 0 Star (and 1 Star) use the same trick, just at different quantities.
Very important arguments for this TAS are:
- The run has a history
- Entertaining parts of the game have been skipped with the lowest% run
- This run shows something different
All of these arguments also apply to my example.
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klmz wrote:
I forgot to mention that I haven't watched the "small only" movie. Maybe it has less flying.
Maybe less? Small only basically means no flying at all.
klmz wrote:
- At least 1 Mario 64 run
Most people are in favor of the 0 star run.
klmz wrote:
I can agree with both (funny?), if adelikat referred to the NES ones.
It is somewhat illogical indeed, although I find it probably illogical for different reasons. At page 3: klmz wrote:
OK:
* Arkanoid (awesome)
** Warpless
* NES Battle of Olympus (better than LoZ2 warped in my opinion)
* NES Castlevania
* NES Legend of Zelda (Can't you believe, huh?)
** Either
* NES Legend of Zelda 2
** Glitched
...
So it is true that you said that you preferred BoO over LoZ2... but you still suggested LoZ2, and you suggested LoZ1. So did you completely change your mind all of a sudden of both NES Zelda movies?
adelikat wrote:
River City Ransom Playaround. Playarounds are a part of this site, but a lot of newcomers don't realize that. If not this movie, some playaround needs to be demonstrated, to show off this element of TASing.
While of course essentially aiming for speed, isn't Gradius also a bit like a playaround? Goofing around is like 95% (or more) of the TAS.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
As for how to move forward (first, a lot more debate and suggestions need to be made... so this is what I plan in the future), possibly:
Some stars which are too evident, and which will cause probably no debate at all (basically everyone agrees). So I'll list these then, and unless there are some really big objections, these will get stars without further debate (since basically everyone already agreed on this). For most stars however, this isn't so clear.
I think it would be good if I devided all the suggestions into groups of somewhat similar movies (depending on the group name). Each group will get a certain number (or range) (although possibly/ideally mostly 1) stars to be devided amongst the TASes of that group. I generally like it if there is some sort of choice element for the stars. This means the groups must be larger than just one TAS. And not just give a star to a movie because it's the only movie that shows a certain concept. So I plan on grouping several TASes together, to get a star list with variety.
Goldeneye has been previously suggested for instance... but are there any movies somewhat similar to say "this one gets a star, or maybe this one"? I could see a group of for instance "3D games" (or "N64 games"), and that would put Goldeneye for instance in a group with Majora's Mask... but on the other side, these movies are extremely different... so any ideas?
Other groups I could see are for instance like: "Castlevania games", "wire games", "special concept TASes" etc. (just to give some ideas of what I'm thinking of). In the "special concept" case, these TASes could probably all have their own group, consisting of just that one TAS. An example of this is: adelikat wrote:
Nightmare on Elm street 4 - player
This isn't the most entertaining movie we have but it is definately a "must see". If someone ever does a more impressive 4 player run, it can take its star perhaps.
But since I wouldn't want to give a TAS a star just because it's the only option in that category. The actual movie should also matter, not just the concept... so I plan on grouping movies like this together, and probably have a few potential stars for them... but still have some debate on what particular concepts are the best suited.
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Kirkq wrote:
The awesomeness of the small only run came from watching the authors juggle 2-3 items at once in order to accomplish impossible feats to get to the exit.
klmz wrote:
If only one star can be given, just make it to the shortest one.
I feel like if it's going to be one star, there are gonna be debates no matter which one it's gonna be :P
klmz wrote:
AKA wrote:
Darkwing Duck: Yet another prime example of what a TAS is. Shows insane luck manipulation, accurate movements and hopping simalar to the SMW run. It also has a clever touch of using the hopping to dance to the music.
What about this as well?
"Journey to Silius: Yet another prime example of what a TAS is. Shows insane luck manipulation, accurate movements* and lag redution with bullets everywhere different from many other runs. It also has a clever touch of using the D-pad to dance to the music." [/biassed :)]
Well, if some stars from the current list are gonna be removed, that opens up some spots, so suggestions for/like these are very welcome. It is also useful to consider a bit which of these are somewhat in the same category, for variety purposes.
arkiandruski wrote:
For Megaman, I would drop 5.
klmz wrote:
But I think Mega Man 5 can be dropped because this time we consider which one to be dropped in the first place
Not particularly trying to defend Mega Man 5 (don't mean to be biased) but I thought I'd bring this point up: If there would be two NES megaman TASes with stars, then aren't megaman 1 and 2 too similar? They both have no sliding, and no fast horizontal movement besides zipping through ceilings, while megaman 5 does have sliding and quite a different way of moving forward in a fast way.
AKA wrote:
Legend of Zelda - Majora's Mask: A huge diversity of tricks and knowledge is displayed, while people complain about the cutscenes, there actually done in a very visual way rather than bland text from a typical old school RPG. Run also shows complex route planning.
Any more opinions on this suggestion? Any other similar runs? (The currently only really 3D game in the star list is Super Mario 64)
Also, what Metroid run(s?) is/are the best suited for a star?
Same question for the Castlevania series.
Some things pretty much everyone agrees on sofar:
- SMB3 any%
- Sonic 3 and Knuckles
- Excitebike
- At least 1 SMW run
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DarkKobold wrote:
Quick question:
What is the point of the star list?
I don't know about the rest of you, but the TASes I find most entertaining are the games I played ad naseum as a a kid.
Thus, if the purpose is to generate website interest, then it is best suited by the list being populated by popular games.
However, if it is to get people interested by watching TASes that they wouldn't have watched otherwise, it isn't served well by having all games that are best of the console in the list. No one from the super Nintendo generation really needs to be suggested to watch Super Mario World. Likewise, no one from the Nintendo generation needs to be suggested to watch Super Mario 3.
You wouldn't suggest to a football fan: "Hey, heard of the super bowl? You might want to check that out!"
So what's the goal?
I hope the guidelines make that somewhat clear. I posted some initial thoughts about this here, but I agree that this doesn't answer your question very well. Therefore I hope there will also be some suggestions made for guidelines, and if we end up agreeing on some kind of answer to your question, it might be good to work it into the guidelines somehow. I'm not satisfied with either the formulation, or the specifics of the guidelines, so input is welcome.
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Once again, they were just some general provocative statements, (some which I heard of others, some I might hold myself... but some are also just made up, just to have a critical comment at each star, so I don't necessarily agree with them).
Either way, I was interested in which ones were agreed with, and which ones weren't so thx :), I hope more comments are coming.
arkiandruski wrote:
How limitted do you think we are going to make the movies, like around what number? This would help me in making arguments as well.
I was thinking about keeping about the current number, plus or minus ~2 max. I think it's good to set course for the same number as we currently have, and should there be some choices too hard to make or agree on, then we could always add 1... but for now, lets aim for the same number as currently.
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arkiandruski wrote:
Anyway, hope this helps you, Baxter, or at least gets discussion started.
Yes, very much appreciated. Complete lists are especially helpful considering they basically also suggest which stars to remove.
I'll make a post here also to get the discussion started, basically questioning the current stars. These are not my suggestions/opinions (in some cases, I had a hard time thinking of some argument, or just disagree with the argument I provided), I just post them to get some discussion, and to get some arguments possibly in favor of the current stars.
First of all, most stars are of the popular franchises. Are these really more suitable for TASing, or is this just our familiarity with these games that affects our judgement? Can a game being well known be a reason counted as something positive, and a possible reason for giving it a star, or is this something which counts negative?
SMB3
Currently the any% run has a star. This is the current version of Morimoto's famous movie, and has a lot of history. It is however filled with autoscrollers, and doesn't provide anything noteworthy which is not in the "no warps" run. While the no warps run is a lot longer, it keeps up the pace, and is entertaining throughout the run. Shouldn't the any% star be transferred to the "no warps" run? (Note that options like "give neither a star" or "give both a star" are also possible.)
The three sonic stars
Sonic 2, Sonic 3 and Sonic advance 2 currently have a star. Are they really different enough? They all have a blue hedgehog moving through the stages with great speed and some occasional glitches and generally similar bossbattles. Are three stars really needed considering the total number of stars is limited? If so, why do they all deserve a star? If not, should there be one star less, or two? Why these?
The three NES megaman stars
Mega Man 1, 2 and 5 currently have stars. Similar argument here, are they different enough? All games have the same formula, and each of the TASes uses a movement item to go through the stages very fast (magnet beam, 123-items, super arrow). Are they different enough and should they all have stars? If so why? If not, which one(s) not?
Super Mario 64
Currently both the 0 star run, and the 120 star run are starred. Does the 0 star run have enough gameplay left? Doesn't the 120 star run include all levels the 0 star movie also plays, and does therefore the 0 star movie really add anything? On the other hand, the 120 star run includes all stars, which means also some of the less interesting stars. Can it really keep its pace the entire run, and can people sit through it in one sitting? Should the level of optimization be taken into account when deciding between these two? Which of these (or both or none) should or shouldn't have stars, and why?
SMW
Super Mario World has two starred movie... with such a limited amount of stars, does one game really need two stars? Are the runs different enough? Wouldn't the 96 exit run show off both lots of levels like the small only run does, and show some cape action? Or maybe a Super Demo World TAS should be starred instead of these?
The two Zelda stars
Currently, "The Legend of Zelda", and "Zelda: A Link to the Past" have stars. While they are well known games, can someone who doesn't know them also enjoy the TASes? Are they fast paced enough to have stars? Is AlttP too long for this kind of run?
Excitebike
A nice and short run, but is the speed accumulation enough for the star? Is there more to it than going in a straight line to the finish? Is it the best choice for this racing game to have a star or are Biker Mice From Mars or Super Mario Kart better options?
SMW2
It's quite a long run, and besides some interesting strategies, is there something really extraordinary about this run?
SMB1
Besides some nifty tricks, is there really something special going on in the run? The non-tool-assisted run is nearly equally fast, and especially during the middle of the stages, it's hard to see what's tool-assisted about it. If this game didn't have the title "Mario" on it, would it still have a star?
SMB2(U)
There are currently 8 mario runs starred, and all three nes mario games have stars. Is this one special enough to have a star? Some impressive strategies are used, but does the casual viewer really notice them? If the game is suitable for a star, shouldn't the "no warps" run get the star? It's equally paced, and the "warps" run doesn't show anything the warpless run doesn't show.
Castlevania
With a lot of NES runs currently starred, is the NES Castlevania version really the best to be starred? Aren't for instance HoD a lot faster paced? (If you suggest for more Castlevania movies than just this one to have stars, which other stars should make room for it?)
Umihara Kawase
TASes using some kind of rope mechanics can be very impressive, especially since it's generally hard to control it with great accuracy in realtime. But is this the best TAS that uses these mechanics? What about Bionic Commando, Ninja Five-0 or Spiderman 3?
"any%" Metroid
Besides being a very well known game, does it have much going for it? It has some major skips, but are these particularly interesting to watch? Aren't there other Metroid runs that are a lot faster paced and more suitable for a star?
Gradius
While the very fast movement might be a pleasant surprise at first, is it entertaining throughout the run? There is only so much you can do, and doesn't the circling become repetative very fast? Aren't there runs with very fast movie characters that show more variety or strategies?
Mega Man X & X2
While it shows off a very interesting concept, the question is, is it really entertaining to watch? Does it feel like watching one perfected run, or just two imperfect ones?
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So like I said, these aren't my opinions or ideas... they are just some statements to stirr up discussion, and hopefully it will produce some good arguments in favor, or against these currently starred movies. It would also be good to see some possible star lists, like arkiandruski's, and some suggestions for the star guidelines (which I posted above this post) would also be nice.
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Xkeeper wrote:
In that case, I would like to bring up the idea of making movies starred only one month after their publication, so that other movies can enjoy whatever spot will be revoked while the run in question merrily sits on the "Newest movies" list.
Well, if it actually has to be decided that another run has to lose its star because of the new star, than some time discussing that will go by anyway.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Here is a suggestion for some general guidelines for stars. They shouldn't be taken too literally in most cases. Every star will have its own individual reasons for its star. It might give a better idea what a star is. (They are actually quite similar to Bisqwit's previous guidelines.)
General guidelines for stars:
- The TAS should display a level of playing skill which clearly isn't normal. It should be apparent that the run is tool-assisted the entire run.
- The TAS should keep its pace throughout the run.
- The TAS should be attractive to both people who are familiar with the game, as well as people who are not.
- The star list should provide have variety. This does not mean that multiple TASes from the same series, or even multiple TASes from the same game are excluded per definition. It also doesn't mean that every aspect of TASing has to have a starred run that explicitly features this aspect.
- The TAS should be audiovisually attractive.
- There are a limited number of stars. If the number of stars increases, then their value decreases. One should keep in mind that if you suggest a TAS to get a star, it will come down to another TAS losing its star. This means that the discussion about which TASes should get a star becomes nearly as important as which TASes should lose their star.
Suggestions or comments are very welcome.
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Saturn wrote:
It could beat the game via a hacked sram trick with even 0% by triggering the Zebes escape sequence right at the beginning, and it still wouldn't count as a low%.
Hacked sram isn't allowed at this site.
Saturn wrote:
The classic low% beats the game just like any other any% / 100% does: without skipping bosses etc., and thus it's accepted as the official low% in the SM community. Ask anybody else there if you need a confirmation.
Oh, I believe you, but this is not the SM community. Here we are interested in what's the shortest input sequence to achieve a certain goal.
Saturn wrote:
If it would get rejected for a good reason not against the majority of the audience
In case you haven't noticed with some other TASes, it's not about the majority. It's about what arguments are used, and a good argument of a single person can be enough to reject a movie. I think you are slightly underestimating the amount of people not in favor of a fifth super metroid category (or at least, this being the fifth).
NameSpoofer wrote:
Has different goals than the 6%. Stop making it complicated.
You could also say that the 1 star SM64 movie was just had different goals than the 16 star movie, and the 0 star movie also. Another way of looking at it is that they were just clear improvements.
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Saturn wrote:
the 14% has a long history in the SM speedrun community, and is accepted as the official low% there
It was accepted at the low% here, until we learned it wasn't the lowest percentage possible after all, which is what matters.
Saturn wrote:
The 14% category was a solid one that existed before the 6% TAS came out. It got obsoleted for no good reason by a run that aims for "completely" different goals
Even if it had completely different goals, it still obsoleted it, since it made the 14% obsolete. It's aim was to get the lowest % possible, and it turned out there was a possible input sequence which make the percentage lower.
We also don't have a 16 star category at super mario 64 anymore.
Saturn wrote:
Besides, the amount of categories doesn't matter as long as they present solid, unique goals, which the 14% one certainly does.
A 15% run is equally solid and unique, and also equally arbitrary. The amount of categories does matter actually, as mmbossman quoted in the submission text.
Baxter wrote:
Saturn wrote:
Xkeeper wrote:
I'm just going to come right out and suggest that this TAS's rejection is due to the author.
It's too obvious, yes. I actually thought that at least the judges on this site are already out of the age of not being able to judge something objectively, regardless of the author (as stated in the judge guidelines), but it seems I was wrong. New times, new rules, I guess.
Be honest here... was there any way this movie could have been rejected without you saying "It was because of me, and not because of the movie"?
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Saturn wrote:
Xkeeper wrote:
I'm just going to come right out and suggest that this TAS's rejection is due to the author.
It's too obvious, yes. I actually thought that at least the judges on this site are already out of the age of not being able to judge something objectively, regardless of the author (as stated in the judge guidelines), but it seems I was wrong. New times, new rules, I guess.
Be honest here... was there any way this movie could have been rejected without you saying "It was because of me, and not because of the movie"?
I think some pretty valid reasons were given, and Bablo just stated them again: Bablo wrote:
1) There is already a low% TAS published.
2) Doesn't use glitches, except it does?
3) I don't see a reason to make a fifth category for Super Metoid TASes.
Are there any good arguments against this? The glitch being boring is not really a good argument, as there are three other Super Metroid runs.
Edit: Xkeeper wrote:
I'm just going to come right out and suggest that this TAS's rejection is due to the author.
<irc quotes>
None of your quotes came from the person who actually rejected the movie...
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Xkeeper wrote:
Baxter wrote:
Generally, if one star is added, that means another star has to be removed to avoid inflation. I'll mention some of this in the general guidelines.
I greatly despise the idea of "one movie gains, one movie loses".
It would be a better idea to just be a bit more strict with giving them out in the first place, although I hope that this doesn't turn into another "99% of starred movies are from the same X series" disaster.
Well, I also don't really like the idea. I posted this before:
Baxter wrote:
Derakon wrote:
Well, it's pretty clear that there should be a maximum, to avoid dilution of what a star "means". Obviously there's no point if every movie gets starred (or, less extreme, if every good movie gets starred; then it just becomes a marker of what movies one person thinks are worth watching, and we have other better ways to do that). I don't think we need to set in stone what the maximum is, though. If whoever gets appointed is handing out too many, there's plenty of ways to deal with it.
I think we agree here, just phrased it differently. I meant that I don't think that it should be restricted to a certain number as in "now no star can be added before another one is removed". Of course the number of stars shouldn't get too big, or the entire concept is lost.
However, the fact is that the community might want changes in the list, and provide good arguments for it, or good arguments for a certain movie to lose its star. This is especially the case when a new movie is published, which might be extremely well suited for a star.
We can't only add stars, and never remove any... that would change the very meaning of a star (if half of the TASes have a star, the stars will mean something quite different than if, say, 5% of the TASes have a star).
I don't know what you mean by "being more strict in the first place". You cannot know what TASes are submitted in the future, or what new ideas or arguments are presented later on. And as I said, stars will only be assigned if there are some good arguments for it.
While I somewhat also dislike it essentially, in the end, it will amount to "one movie must go for another one to be added", I don't see any way around it... although I'm happy to hear suggestions.
I also don't quite see a problem with a movie losing its star... it's not like stars were never changed before.
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Bisqwit wrote:
I'm acting lazy so I went ahead and granted Baxter the access to promote and demote movies as special stars. In addition, admins such as Adelikat and DeHackEd have this privilege and have had that for a long time already.
Great :)
AKA wrote:
Not that I object to it, but does this mean a 1/3 of the list will contain Mega Man games?
Bezman wrote:
If I wanted to find out Baxter - or anyone else's
Bisqwit wrote:
(This doesn't mean I want him to be a dictator with regards to the starred movie question; he should still listen to the opinions of people :P)
Adelikat wrote:
I think Baxter is capable of a bit more objectivity than that.
Yeah, I think so too. It's supposed to be list generated by arguments from the community, keeping in mind things as variety and such.
Adelikat wrote:
Also, if we have put a limit to the number of stars, I think it should be a percentage of the total published movies, say 5%. The total publications is around 500 at the moment, so that would give us about 25 stars to work with.
Yeah, I agree with the percentage of the total published movies idea. Generally, if one star is added, that means another star has to be removed to avoid inflation. I'll mention some of this in the general guidelines.
Jimsfriend wrote:
Baxter wrote:
- State some general guidelines
So is that what you had in mind, or were you looking for something a bit more specific? If more specificitynessishdahddjfd is needed, then I'm guessing you have something in mind, and should share it :)
I'll post them as soon as I know them. Like I said, they are just general, and don't by definition include or exclude any particular runs for having a star. They aren't definitive or anything, I'm very open to suggestions and ideas.
Jimsfriend wrote:
why don't you give an example of a Star movie and it's motivation
Will post some shortly, although I do hope others will join in, as it should be some general arguments, and not specifically my arguments.
Jimsfriend wrote:
motivation (I don't like your word choice)
I don't either as a matter of fact. I just meant a list why movie X has a star. Call them reasons, arguments or whatever.
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This happened to me today:
Person: "How did your presentation go?"
Me: "That was last week."
Person: "Yeah, but I haven't seen you in the meantime."
Now I was thinking "But you did see me, and you asked me then also how the presentation went". Would you tell him, of think "fuck it"?
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The thread doesn't seem to be really moving anymore. Let me post a more concrete idea, lets see how it floats.
mmbossman wrote:
Just make someone in charge of stars
I wouldn't mind being in charge of them. I'm interested in the concept of stars, and care about the list. I can weigh arguments against each other, and think I'll be able to be pretty objective.
This is about what I would have in mind doing:
- State some general guidelines, somewhat like Bisqwit did here. These would just be some guidelines, and shouldn't be taken too strict and do not determine which movies can and can't have stars. The guidelines would be there just to have a general idea what stars/starred movies are. It might be good to have some suggestions or discussion about these guidelines.
- I think it would be a good idea that each star gets a motivation why this movie has a star. This could be either here at the forum, or at a page on the site. It would be an up to date list of all stars with their motivations. Objections to the motivations/arguments for a particular star, or arguments for giving other movies stars can be discussed at the forum. (Maybe we should also list why some movies lost their stars, or why it was decided they they didn't get one.) I think this will create some transparency, and encourage discussion.
- I think it's probably best to start off with the current list (maybe plus Super Metroid 100%, as I think it previously had a star), and list the arguments why these have stars.
======================================
Any thoughts on this?
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Seeing this thread made me think it would be nice if this page would work again.
I think the main idea of that thread could be easily implemented with this list (the idea of having some sort of something ongoing the entire year). I think that if for instance at a certain time, every day the scores on that list would be saved for every person, and then (eventually) have a graph of the players progression that year, and the overall score progression. It might give some fun statistics.
