Posts for Comicalflop

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Posted: 11/30/2006 12:11 AM
(Edited: 4/24/2007 4:15 AM)
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Comicalflop
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Joined: 6/13/2006
Posts: 3300
Location: Massachussetts, USA
Speedy TAS of 2009
I know I'd say I wouldn't give anything away so as not to spoil anything, however I will tell a sad little story with Lava lagoon... (which actually desynched for me twice, I have no idea why since those stopped when I switched to 1.0 ROM *shrug*) I watched Snapdragon's 102% SS and I found that yes you can use Enguarde in the section before the bonus, and that while you have to backtrack a little to get him and then dismount in order to hit clapper, that it was still lightning fast to zoom through the levels. But of course, I have to test whether this is faster or not.... and it's not it's slower by 100 frames than the method in V8 which is just leave him and swim normally. :'( poor Enguarde. Here's a halfway mark spoiler, halfway done with Lava Lagoon and halfway done with Crocodile Cauldron (normally I hate giving WIPs with incomplete levels) but this is to showcase what it would look like if I used Enguarde, plus show the first 3 stages of Crocodile Cauldron done (Hothead Hop, Kannon's Klaim, Jungle Jinxes.) When Lava Lagoon is done it won't have that Enguarde section. Crocodile Cauldron midway spoiler, Enguarde test run in Lava Lagoon
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Posted: 11/29/2006 11:34 PM
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Comicalflop
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Speedy TAS of 2009
Yes, the full glitched run would be the theoretical 0 ir 1 star that is not quite possible yet, though potential thanks to the newly discovered glitches in 120 and 16. I was in support for the 70 run before, but now I'm not so sure. I'm not trying to disuade, but I'm seeing JXQ's point of view
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Posted: 11/29/2006 11:32 PM
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Comicalflop
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Speedy TAS of 2009
up+B not for Fox, but every characters' up+B has a much greater affect on the "teams" as well as all R-Throws. Yes Fox's shine will be used, but if I'm going to try Yoshi Team and get speedster and Yoshi Rainbow with Kirby the uppercut should be considered to kill them quickly, since up+B has a greater result which is true for all characters. Any item I want... too bad only pokeball with Mew, and tomatoes and hearts for the high score run. what sort of input is used to make the right item fall, and what input makes a certain pokemon appear? I probably will aim for 8 minutes for the high score, if every level can be improved to uber quality and the Yoshi rainbow with speedster is gotten, and if the polygon is manpulated perfectly than 8 minutes might be doable. You're right, the speed demon award is too good not to shoot for it. And it is a speedrun fastest possible time and getitng highest score should be priority :p Although, the rejected 7:09 run is 7 minutes with fastest completion, the only real slow down which is Metal mario that lasts 17 seconds, so I figure I can shave off that 17 seconds from the fast Metal Mario fight with swallow suicide, however Fox is way faster in many of the fighting levels with Shine pushing, and really excels at getting speedsters of the teams, so maybe sub 8 minutes os going to be very difficult...
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Posted: 11/29/2006 9:33 PM
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Comicalflop
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Speedy TAS of 2009
14 hours = maybe crawl run not so hot an idea...
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Posted: 11/29/2006 7:07 PM
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Comicalflop
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Speedy TAS of 2009
I'm torn between #1 and #3. #1 would be the closest to a fastest 70 star TAS, whereas #3 seems to have the best goals while still utilizing glitches and techniques to make those goals happen the fastest possible.
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Posted: 11/29/2006 6:40 PM
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Comicalflop
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Speedy TAS of 2009
haha that would explain it. so yeah we have a skilled runner, and proof that the run itself will be entertaining, so I hope Wyster does this, I'll check WIPs throughout.
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Posted: 11/29/2006 5:58 PM
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Comicalflop
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Speedy TAS of 2009
8 minutes I'm not so sure about, if I tried to speedster the Yoshi's with rainbow bonus, and had insane luck manipulation on every enemy and optimal bonus/Master Hand fights than 8 might be possible, but not likely. 8+ to under 10 is my expected range. I think normal mystic is a complete no go, as it makes you lose a life. Taking no damage is a given :p As with Starfox 64, should time be wasted to get a higher score, like setting up a comet mystic or trying to get mew catch (+15,000 for finding mew in pokeball)? Insane luck manipulation is going to be the name of the game, throughout the entire run (except of course for bonuses and master hand.) to manipulate enemies, do you move in different directions, do different input or test different frames to do stuff in order to make them move the way you want? I'm used to the luck manipulation of DKC2 where the frame you enter a level determines the outcome in most bosses, I'm not familiar with enemy movement manipulating. One trick I need to know about is: Kirby swallowing, how do you move while you have someone swallowed? or do you have to swallow/spit them out and keep going until you spit them beyond the platform and do the suicide swallow maneveur?
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Posted: 11/29/2006 5:39 PM
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Comicalflop
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Speedy TAS of 2009
Match? Aren't we to beat records at this site? I just downloaded the ROM because I deleted mine a while back, I'll give some input on the gameplay in a short while. Edit: I'm suprised in a good way. I was getting the vibe that TWINE is not as uber as GE due to some gameplay differences, but you seemed to have nailed it. Points of interest: no floor looking- thank you! optimization of turns- you seemed to go in straight lines to destinations and rounded curves perfectly or near perfectly, so that's good. You seem to be beating missions as fast as possible, so that's good. I liked how you ducked under a door to get in faster ;P The two factors that are kept from GE in your playing style: 1) the movement, using C button movement while turning and running is not quite as fast you still have the 007 style of running, so that's good 2) more important the killing and headshots of enemies was exactly the quality it needed to be, there is no loss in killing speed/entertainment of enemies between GE and TWINE, so good job. I say, especially since this looks better than I expected and that you seem to suffer no desynchs, to go for it all the way. My only advice is not to follow the WR's all the time- try to beat them with better optimization or testing of new strategies.
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Posted: 11/29/2006 5:37 PM
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Comicalflop
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Speedy TAS of 2009
Mukki wrote:
Personally, I'm stunned that there isn't an active and specific thread purely for arguing time vs. entertainment. It seems to be argued with the same vivacity as many of the more extreme persuasion would debate abortion or capital punishment. Someone should really start one...
actually I was thinking about this and a general discussion thread for it wouldn't work, since every game is different and varies on what is better speed vs. entertainment. Making a general thread entailing all games with the debate of speed vs. entertainment is probably a bad idea and a flaming thread waiting to happen. It should be discussed per game in their respective threads, since the arguments/reasons are different.
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Posted: 11/29/2006 5:35 PM
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Comicalflop
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Speedy TAS of 2009
My friend had the Wii and showed it to me, Zelda Twilight Princess was simply breathtaking. And apparently a long game too, he said initial testers took when speedrunning 70 hours. However, all of the Z movements are no longer as fast as in OoT and MM, however backflipping and actually rolling is nice. TP is actually so huge, which is a good thing because there are hours and hours to be had in the game, with all sorts of new stuff. graphics, gameplay, it's all good. However, it's advised to play Windwaker before TP, because there's plot stuff that you need to see after MM and OoT.
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Posted: 11/29/2006 8:14 AM
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Comicalflop
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Speedy TAS of 2009
Woop um hm got to the miniboss in 2-1 and sorta took a little break... finals are coming up, I might have 2-1 and maybe 2-2 finished by christmas vacation and then I have until late January off, and I should hopefully get a lot done. I notice that when I get around and TAS these levels that they go by fast, but since I'm working on a lot of runs and schoolwork's picking up I haven't found time yet. I'll finish this eventually though. update: officially put on hold for a very long time. Jet Force Gemini has become run #1, and boy is it going to take a very long time to do. If anyone else wants to take what I have and continue, be my guest. when done with JFG (hehehe LONG time from now) and my other projects I'll pick this up again. Despite being easy to make it just seems like not the best game to TAS.
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Posted: 11/29/2006 7:57 AM
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Comicalflop
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Speedy TAS of 2009
haha what the heck?
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Posted: 11/29/2006 7:34 AM
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Comicalflop
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Speedy TAS of 2009
I agree and disagree, I feel that while a 70 requires planning of 70 fastest stars 70 IS the required number to finish the game normally and that the 70 is the best candidate for a glitchless run, I feel like the glitches can only improve the time for obvious reasons. I guess maybe the glitches can't be used to progress further than intended perhaps? I feel a 70 star run is justified, more so than, say, an all medallion OoT run because: it's beating the game the way it was intended, and due to the nature of the way stars are collected does not detract from entertainment, goals, and maintains a consistent seperate category.
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Posted: 11/29/2006 7:15 AM
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Comicalflop
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Speedy TAS of 2009
Here's my gameplan (sorry will be quite long and a little confusing, but it's tiny notes for me) *Fox Fastest TAS completion level by level analysis:* (most levels that normally shine-push the enemy I'll test to see if shield breaking can be faster, but I doubt it) Link: Shine, or shield break, if shine try to get Link to die faster on down with maybe aerial Z canceling? Yoshi Team: up+B seems to work perfectly, try to manipulate yoshis or hit them faster Fox: Shine or shield break, same as Link Bonus 1 BtT: Skip by jumping over ledge Mario/Luigi: Shine or shield break Pikachu: edge grab for fastest, shine may be faster? DK: edge grab, try to manipulate him to fall faster Bonus 2 BtP: Skip by falling through floor to save 17 frames Kirby Team: Shine works, maybe a little more manipulation Samus: definetly try shield break, test if up+A infinite is faster to make Samus fall off top screen (unlikely) or just improve the comboing; if these don't work, try to optimize making Samus go off screen right Metal Mario: MUST make faster, test all methods of attacking/luck manipulation Shield Breaking, Shining, jump cancel attacking- make Metal Mario’s not moving work to attack extremely fast, test if high%damage + smash attack can make Metal Mario go off platform fast to set up an edgeguard Polygon Team: Shine works, maybe try to manipulate them more, and use luck manipulation for better items? Pokeball, gun? Master Hand: fight was near perfect, try to squeeze in a few more lasers, maybe more aerial assaults, find the fastest/best damage attack and use it consistently Skip Ness fight? In hard mode seems necessary, plus credits go by super fast, unless credits count as end of game *Kirby High Score TAS level by level analysis:* Link: pacifist strat, test if swallow suicide maneuver works Yoshi Team: very tough/long, edge grab or swallow, possible Yoshi Rainbow award instead of Pacifist? Combine with comet mystic? Fox: pacifist strat, Arwing clear? Bonus 1 BtT: try to beat WR (I have a vid, I see areas of improvement so it's possible) will apply antd's BtT methods to make faster Mario/Luigi: pacifist strat, kill Luigi first for Brother’s Calamity Pikachu: easy Pacifist with edge grab DK: Swallow suicide maneuver, if not pacifist strat Bonus 2 BtP: try to beat WR (I have a vid, I see areas of improvement so it's possible) will apply antd's BtP methods to make faster Kirby Team: pacifist strat, attempt for Kirby ranks, luck manipulation a must to make Kirbies die in order, possible speedster/no pacifist? Lose out on 25,000 if so at gain of time Samus: Pacifist possible? Make Samus kill herself via Acid? Maybe not viable, speedster with star finish/kill off left edge? Comet mystic with star finish via cutter? Metal Mario: Pacifist with swallow Polygon Team: Harder than Yoshi fight, however no bonus for getting them in order and no chance of speedster so probably Pacifist a must, use items to boost score i.e. pokeball (mew) tomatoes/heart pieces Master Hand: use aerial attacks for hawk, probably down+A air for best damage, up+B for hitting Hand out of range? Skip Ness fight? In hard mode seems necessary, plus credits go by super fast, unless credits count as end of game Thoughts? The fast completion has a run that I'm trying to obsolete so planning will be less, but more care will be taken to ensure it's faster and better... High Score I don't have the run, so I made educated guesses (most of them right I think) on how each level should be fought, if anyone thinks/knows of a better strategy feel free to make addendums and/or suggestions antd I'd especially like any/all help that you can give, for how to perfect TASing this game, beating the WR's of the bonus stages, and mastering the moves you demonstrate on youtube. I actually have a question: I know enemy behavior is affected by movement (how so?), are the items luck manipulatable and if so how? like can the exact item be made to fall (can't affect item drop times because that's ingrained I believe) or variables within the item be selected? Normal Mystic is bad because you lose a life, but comet mystic is still possible since it requires that you don't die but are in falliing animation in background. So Taunts will be used, I'm guessing that a comet mystic is going to be very difficult to pull off, especially since A) there are few levels where you can float up, up+B and fall off and B) if you are edge guarding, good luck getting off the top of the screen before the CPU hits the bottom and dies Maybe... Fox level if Arwing comes fast enough (for it to bring me up the screen, I can't remember how fast the arwing comes or if I'd have time to fall off the ceiling), Samus level, since Samus is off killing herself from acid maybe it's possible to get both pacifist and comet mystic, since I believe the ceiling is low enough to jump from the highest platform; polygon/Yoshi team maybe, and I do not know about any others.
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Posted: 11/29/2006 6:05 AM
(Edited: 11/29/2006 8:25 AM)
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Comicalflop
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Speedy TAS of 2009
There is, but it's slow. It's featured in antd's youtube videos, here It's not wavedashing per se but mimics it... I believe that it more involves jump cancelling, and I think would only be useful for parrying (avoiding hits) and showing off, or for getting in lots of hits with the other techniques i.e. the shield breakers. I just spent 20 minutes reading through the gruefood forums of both the Fox SSB submissions (wow it got really heated and intense)... does anyone have input on what I should do differently in the TAS to avoid that? some ideas I've had: High score: you get 100 points for taungting, but the mystic and comet mystic bonus awards for being off screen give much more, +7,000 and +10,000 respectively (mystic is off screen but not dead, comet is falling in the background but still alive when CPU dies) I think that comet mystic would be hard to pull off (although maybe not with Kirby's flying and cutter) but 7,000/10,000 is better than 100. I have a list of all bonus awards, so maybe in some levels pacifist will not be used to favor something else doable. fastest completion: the shield breaking looks promising to drastically shorten the metal mario fight. I really feel as if some method to rapidly attack/move Mario will get him closer to the edge, and look more impressive. and poll: should final Ness fight be done as in the 7:09 submission?
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Posted: 11/29/2006 5:12 AM
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Comicalflop
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Speedy TAS of 2009
While I may be without the high score run, I was able to get antd's youtube vids... those are nice, I wonder if the wavedashing and shieldbreaking techniques can speed up the Fox's fastest completion... it'd be nice for say, the samus or metal mario levels. If it was as fast or faster than simply doing down+B all the time, it'd remove the repition. (too bad only the wavedashing or parry/jump cancelling can have usefulness to high score run.) antd I noticed that those used frame advance, how do you perform those moves? specifically: wavedashing jump cancelling/parry the shield breaking techniques And as a side note for the high score run, killing all the yoshi's in order nets +50,000 points, which may be a huge time saver as instead of waiting for all the yoshi's to kill themselves to instead kill them in order, saving time and only losing 10,000 points. (if of course that 10,000 can be made up for in other levels, which I assume can be done.) would definetly break up the monotony of always holding onto the ledge.
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Posted: 11/29/2006 3:55 AM
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Comicalflop
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Speedy TAS of 2009
it's in the process, so yes. It's a huge movie so yeah it is taking a little while. Shouldn't be long though, however I hope that the greatest amount of torrent peers will be when I download it, otherwise I'm looking at a 2-3 day download...
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Posted: 11/29/2006 2:01 AM
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Comicalflop
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Speedy TAS of 2009
Because if I test a specific angle/tilt, and then continue from there and have to change the direction to keep going, and the first angle/tilt was perfect but the movements afterwards weren't, then it becomes easier if it can be saved. Also, I haven't tested out enough, but is there a setting that keeps the analog stick where it is, but to change the angle and direction by 1? whenever I move angle/direction by 1 unit to the left or right the dot just goes back to the center... I just realized I can write down the angle/direction numbers on paper, so nvm.
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Posted: 11/28/2006 9:50 PM
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Comicalflop
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Speedy TAS of 2009
Alright so I'll be starting these and see what happens, I guess since neither run is playing the game a second time then Ness and Falcon are out of the equation. I assume that if antd wanted to ever combine his work of the BtT and BtP into one run, he could complete the game 3 times, first with Fox, second with Ness, third with Falcon to keep it interesting, than procede to beat all 48 records. Before I start, if anyone wants to heavily look at what can be improved in either of the previous runs, feel free, as I don't think I'll be able to 100% check that by myself. I think I have a rough idea of a few things that can be corrected, but if someone could find all the faults that'd be great. And in the menu selection, hardest difficulty is selected, and because you have to wait a while before you can hit start, I can bring it down to 1 stock and still start on the first possible frame. Of course that does nothing because I'm not going to lose any lives anyways, but I might as well since I have a 20 frame time with nothing better to do. The high score run will benefit at the end for having 1 stock only, but the fast run it doesn't matter at all since that's time and not score (although it loses no time to do so.) Fastest time menu navigation SSB High Score menu navigation No action yet, but just to give an idea of the two seperate game files. Edit: I tried emailing psychoticworm, I couldn't reach him so unfortunately unless someone completely memorized the high score video, I'm going to be going in blind... hopefully either myself or someone can refind or discover the strategies to make this possible. A question (mostly cuz I don't want to go ahead all for naught): fixing the mistakes of fastest completion, and all the edge-grabbing and swallowing of the high score.... would it be publishable and not get rejected? haha um yeah I think I've asked this before, but it would be a shame to get another rejected run...
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Posted: 11/28/2006 9:22 PM
(Edited: 11/28/2006 9:47 PM)
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Comicalflop
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Speedy TAS of 2009
any character can do that though, and some better than DK like Ness, Fox, Kirby... I have Ness after letting the SSB submission fight Ness, and I have no idea how to DUI or whatever that jump cancelling stuff is... Ness would be a good contender if anyone wanted to play through a second or thirs time through the game... Edit: just for kicks I started two files, one with aiming for fastest time with Fox (I have both of the previous fastest runs with Fox, so I'll look at those for mistakes to fix but they are minor, unless I am missing something major) and the other file started with highest score with Kirby. as I start these test runs, if anyone can point out glaring faults in the cancelled/rejected runs and either find the movie or remembers enough about the Kirby high score to offer input, it'd be greatly appreciated.
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Posted: 11/28/2006 8:46 PM
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Comicalflop
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Speedy TAS of 2009
The previous two SSB fastest runs used Fox for good reason, being the fastest and having very clever use of the down+B to basically push everybody away. While the move got repetitive, I think it is THE best to use for most cases in the fastest run. I just hope improving the mistakes won't make it get rejected again. DK's spin attack is only good versus Kirby team, Yoshi Team and Polygon team because I've noticed up+B attacks for any character make the enemies fly away the farthest. I'm also leaning to the Kirby pacifist run as well, but the link expired so I can't see the 10 minute high score run... I'm sure it could be improved, but I'd need to see it because I vaguely remember it but don't have memorized all of the strategies. So if anyone has or can get, that'd be great.
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Posted: 11/28/2006 8:15 PM
(Edited: 4/24/2007 4:15 AM)
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Comicalflop
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Speedy TAS of 2009
78 frames saved in Jungle Jinxes, the bonus is way improved and I was able to do some things that I couldn't do in V8 (namely try some tire shortcuts.) I lost a little bit of time in some places due to the placements of the tires and from doing those shortcuts, but the new techniques/shortcuts I do save more time than is lost, which is apparent by the large number of frames saved.
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Posted: 11/28/2006 8:11 PM
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Comicalflop
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Speedy TAS of 2009
so in theory then yes it could, so Spezzafer would that help?
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Posted: 11/28/2006 8:11 PM
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Comicalflop
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Speedy TAS of 2009
so would a flawless fastest time/highest score be accepted that had no such mistakes? if so I'll consider this...
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Posted: 11/28/2006 5:35 PM
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Comicalflop
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Speedy TAS of 2009
show off some glitches, maybe do some funny stuff near townspeople, annoy the dog running around in north town, see if you can visit every person by at least standing next to them before time runs out, do some acrobatic stuff in this game, make patterns in the ground with deku spinning: would it be possible to spell your name?
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