Editor, Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Experienced player
(730)
Joined: 6/13/2006
Posts: 3300
Location: Massachussetts, USA
GuanoBowl and I restarted this, especially since I conveniently had a WIP that got to the Deku Tree 6 seconds faster.
However, I have gotten 20+ desynchs in trying to get over this fence in Hyrule Field, and it is really frustrating me. I would've been in the Spirit Temple already if it weren't for this major setback.
Editor, Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Experienced player
(730)
Joined: 6/13/2006
Posts: 3300
Location: Massachussetts, USA
haha that was awesome. I still can't believe you guys did PSS with that camera angle. I suggest that, while unorthodox and kinda cool with "wtf how did they know where they were going" I'd still say keeping Mario in view is better.
Editor, Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Experienced player
(730)
Joined: 6/13/2006
Posts: 3300
Location: Massachussetts, USA
Wyster wrote:
On topic again: Comicalflop, can't you just do huryle field exactly like the old TAS? As far as i remember Guano didn't have any desynch problems there?
I'll try that today. I can probably backflip over the fence, then backwalk over to the first hill, instead of backflipping onto the fence and sidehopping off it like I've been trying.
Editor, Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Experienced player
(730)
Joined: 6/13/2006
Posts: 3300
Location: Massachussetts, USA
Wow, 2-3 pages of BA research/discussion, and this makes me feel quite bad that I am still lagging behind in the run at Hyrule Field stuck at the desynch when trying to hop over a fence.
Editor, Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Experienced player
(730)
Joined: 6/13/2006
Posts: 3300
Location: Massachussetts, USA
I think on IRC I requested some run that has greater usage of Maxim... while he has the capability to go straight to Dracula and finish it right there in 27 seconds, I think that a more full run of Maxim would be cool, due to his superior capabilities. Best ending with Maxim? Warping throughout the castle and beating every boss in reverse order?
Kaz wrote:
I had an idea for a funny gimmick run like the reverse boss order Super Metroid run.
In this game, you meet Death four times:
1. Introduction in marble corridor A
2. Meeting in clock tower A (activation of the circular warps)
3. Lydie's kidnapping in castle top floor A
4. Fight in Luminous Cavern A
With door glitching and quicksave + soft resetting, I could do these 4 in reverse order.
Editor, Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Experienced player
(730)
Joined: 6/13/2006
Posts: 3300
Location: Massachussetts, USA
awesome! just be careful that the 2 player run that was submitted aimed for fastest time, and people whined about it not being entertaining enough. I'd suggest reading the submission thread and seeing what exactly it was viewer's wanted to see, and what fighting/stylistic choices they preferred.
Editor, Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Experienced player
(730)
Joined: 6/13/2006
Posts: 3300
Location: Massachussetts, USA
The .m64 I gave Vidar is for Terran Brood War. At this point, only that campaign is going to be done, in order to assess how easy it is to TAS this game. if it's easier than expected, then all 6 can be done; if it's as hard as we imagine it, then only Terran BW, because I believe that campaign to be the best to do for various reasons.
Editor, Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Experienced player
(730)
Joined: 6/13/2006
Posts: 3300
Location: Massachussetts, USA
I predict, in mission 1 at least with having ~5 seconds saved from being able to do things on the first possible frame i.e. perfect micro. a solid strategy, by bringing all units to the enemy base as fast as possible could be a good 10 seconds, maybe. Not getting distracted by any enemy units can be another 5, and you'll have more than 13 seconds improvement from dialogue skipping alone. subtract about 5ish seconds (unknown) from slightly slower speed.. yeah, you should come out 20+ seconds faster. this is all estimate of course.
some notes: Duran should be sent out as fast as possible. it's almost disheartening how easily he can make his way and start sniping the enemy base.
send the tanks out, and time it so that by the time they arrive there, the research for siege mode is complete. (this is a general rule for the entire TAS as well. send the unit out, and just before they reach their destination, research/upgrade complete.)
make sure everything synchs, delete .fla file all the time, etc. etc.
maintain good camera control.
Editor, Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Experienced player
(730)
Joined: 6/13/2006
Posts: 3300
Location: Massachussetts, USA
Update: I am experiencing a peculiar desynch in Hyrule Field... After the superslide off the Pea Hat and just as I backflip onto a fence and sidehop off it, on the way to Gerudo Valley, my hop off the fence keeps going haywire. Going to take me a lot of trial and error to get a hop off of the fence that stays in synch (a shame too, I was nearly at the cuccoo jump over the gate.)
Editor, Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Experienced player
(730)
Joined: 6/13/2006
Posts: 3300
Location: Massachussetts, USA
See, the thing is, I looked at the SDA speedruns that pause before dialogue is started.... and yet the in-game timer is still going. I know this because the real time length of the movie is still the same length as the speedrun itself.
For N64, I know for a fact that the action always stops when a dialogue occurs (instead of pressing pause to manually make things stop) and this makes the in-game timer stop. Plus, the dialogues are not speeches that are spoken out, but text messages that you can skip naturally, thus lowering both the in-game time and the real time.
Waiting for a runner on my part. I'd work on this, but 4 other projects need to be done first. I've worked out most of the problems (ALWAYS remember to deleate the .fla save file before recording, and before watching in read only mode, and spam the move button to make units move somewhere without getting too distrcated), although you are probably still bound to run into desynchs due to the Exp Pak.
you can go ahead and take this .m64, (you can manually change the author info).) I have the Terran BW campaign already selected, and the necessary menu options changed to speed things up.
So yeah, Terran BW. you will have 8 missions, none over 8 minutes, with the best music and IMO the most missions with the greatest amount of action, and the least amount of "meticulously bring one or more unit character past hundreds of enemies". So, overall the best bang for your buck. Buene suerte!
Editor, Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Experienced player
(730)
Joined: 6/13/2006
Posts: 3300
Location: Massachussetts, USA
There's also the SDA speedruns to watch for ideas.
I've done some timings... and the N64 should automatically get faster times than PC regardless of how fast you can set the speed. The PC has the dialogues take up in-game time, and they can be long as the characters take their merry little time talking. the N64 has pop-up screens showing the dialogue, and you can skip each message by pressing A. You can scroll very quickly through these messages; thus, every single mission, in all 6 campaigns can be inherantly shorter than PC times.
But looking beyond that, you can still increase speed to 80-90% (I haven't accurately checked) of what the max PC speed is. having access to slowdown and savestates can lead to perfection, so you can get even lower times because of that. That, plus maybe doing some glitches (if they work for N64, like making a Terran command base landing on an opponents') and new strats can lead to shorter times. I predict Terran BW, in real time, to take no longer than 35 minutes, and it's very likely to be shorter than that.
Editor, Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Experienced player
(730)
Joined: 6/13/2006
Posts: 3300
Location: Massachussetts, USA
Don't worry, the only dead threads are the Castlevania ones in need of "necromantic revivals"
Having never played the game before I can't offer input... watched the test run and looked pretty good, I'll most likely watch it if submitted, and you probably know how supportive I am of N64 TASing :-)
Editor, Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Experienced player
(730)
Joined: 6/13/2006
Posts: 3300
Location: Massachussetts, USA
When I was collecting the deku sticks pre-Tree, I definitely remember looking through Guano's entire v2 WIP, and noticing that all 3 were used for very specific reasons and were fully drained by the end. Otherwise, I would have collected only two.
I'll take a look at the improvements you mention for deku tree, but the backwalk to the ladder was optimal (I checked, you'll notice his speed remains the same even if he is angled towards the wall- you see this many times in Jabu Jabu, it's done to keep the same speed and change direction once the wall is passed. I also made tests of my own; rolls have about the same speed as a backwalk, and end with a pause that should be cancelled in some way. When getting to the ladder, I was 2-3ish frames faster than Rolling then setting up a backwalk.
Jumping off the ledge we did was the best way to do the vine glitch off of the skulltula. You could jumpslash your way like in the published run, but would not be in any position to do the vine glitch.
I don't know about those deku scrubs. I am concerned about the loss of one full heart in getting there, since that puts me with half a heart for the entire spirit temple, so I might have to lose some frames to avoid damage, instead of cleverly take damage for the deathwarp. It might have been better to sidehop towards the deku scrubs, but I think the trigger for their appearance is as soon as you walk out of the water, so getting to them faster would be not needed.
So far, the only biggest improvements to deku tree would be rolling through that spider instead of slashing to stop it, and pulling off that zip that I haven't been able to replicate.
Acryte: you seem to have a good find there... how is it done, how can it help, and where would it save time?
Editor, Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Experienced player
(730)
Joined: 6/13/2006
Posts: 3300
Location: Massachussetts, USA
Just to inform: GANNON BANNING is when someone misspells Ganon.
Deku Nuts are collected in the spirit temple (if the well route is faster, which I doubt, they can be manipulated elsewhere.) We need like 7-8ish. The first batch we collect will be all we need.
Back at home, so hopefully I can get back to work on this. Just about at the part with cuccoo jumping the bridge.
Editor, Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Experienced player
(730)
Joined: 6/13/2006
Posts: 3300
Location: Massachussetts, USA
Yes vote, incredible improvement.
Yet can we please refrain from such speedy publications? It'd be better for various reasons if there was a minimum of 3-4 days for any submission to be accepted/published. Not enough people will get to vote, sometimes an improvement is found quickly that can be hexed in, and it makes TASers of less popular games feel insignificant when a popular game is submitted, accepted, and published while theirs sits and waits in the WB for weeks on end.
Editor, Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Experienced player
(730)
Joined: 6/13/2006
Posts: 3300
Location: Massachussetts, USA
I'm not going to get into the mk64 vs. f-zero debate... but do know that it's slightly insulting to, in a thread I made geared towards showing someone else's f-zero work, to bash my progress with mk64 by saying it's inferior to this game.
Anyways, White Land 2 is done (youtube on the way).
Editor, Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Experienced player
(730)
Joined: 6/13/2006
Posts: 3300
Location: Massachussetts, USA
I remember following a video or two that showed it. the quality was craptacular, but I was able to make out Mario getting them all. and there were like 3-4 videos all accomplishing the same thing, so I presume it's been done.
even if it hadn't, that's what a TAS is for, right?
Editor, Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Experienced player
(730)
Joined: 6/13/2006
Posts: 3300
Location: Massachussetts, USA
moozooh wrote:
Comicalflop, before you progress further, I URGE you to use Snes9x 1.51 for this run. Not only you gain the access to the FX addresses, but also much greater graphics.
Spezzafer already found the addresses for YI, as shown in a .txt. I tested them myself and they work perfectly, so there is no need for that. I also dislike 1.51; I do not notice any improvement in graphics nor sound, the occasional lowered frame rate my snes9x 1.43 experiences is not fixed by 1.51, and 1.51 has experienced desynchs. Honestly, there is no reason for me to use it. Don't fix what isn't broken.
Baxter wrote:
I am interested in doing a 100% run of this game, but I wouldn't start this before all of the movies I'm currently working on are completed. (And I also think Comicalflop should finish the 15 projects he is currently working on before adding another one.)
I wouldn't start until I have finished or have less projects as well. (and it's 4, not 15....)
Editor, Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Experienced player
(730)
Joined: 6/13/2006
Posts: 3300
Location: Massachussetts, USA
Chamale wrote:
Sure, it's insanely massive if you do it all in one go. But that's like saying "We don't know the best route yet for a Super Mario 64 run, let's not make it yet". If we all had that attitude, we would have a completion time of 16 minutes for that run. Improvements can come later.
Let's assess this...
We do know the best route for Super Mario 64. We know how to get 16 stars. We're very close to seeing a sub 15 minute submission.
SM64 16 star runs are easier to make, time wise, compared to Yoshi's Island. So SM64 was a very bad example to compare with.
YI is a massive undertaking of time. It is very tricky, you are expected to make it flashy and entertaining, and also hard pressed to keep speed at a high when navigating levels.
Also, as Spezzafer has pointed out, the egg management is very tricky for 100%. Figuring out which eggs you are going to make/use, where you are going to get your 30 stars, as well as which stars/flowers to hit with eggs, which to hit with enemies, which to grab manually, etc.
Here's how I see it:
100% has a 50% complete, 99% optimal WIP. It is insanely hard to do, to the point where our conventional YI runner fizzled. It is in theory the most entertaining, on the basis that it has the most opportunities to use dazzling egg throwing in the collection of stars, coins, and flowers.
Any% has a 100% complete, 75% optimal run. Many new tricks/precision techniques that have been found: skipping areas in 1-2 (which may work elsewhere) using different acceleration to gain a faster speed, using acceleration when flying, removal of mistakes (like passing through too many cloaked walls), using the spinning ball better for vertical ascension, and most of all: increased standards in entertainment because of 100%, which any% can attain. 100% only has more opportunities to showcase entertaining Yoshi play, not better.
Furthermore:
100%, despite having SDA runs to compare to, still has a lot of exploring, planning, and route making for the remaining levels, from 4-3 onwards. The 'hard stuff" of 100% is not just doing the motions, but in planning everything out. Any% already has everything already mapped out: improve the precision, improve routes when needed with new shortcuts, increase entertainment; the hard works is already done for the entire run.
Do I want to do a run of YI? Yes, I love this game. I probably can't at the moment, but I'd love to complete any%, and maybe eventually 100%. We shall see. I did 1-1 any% to show that the current run can be improved with precision and does not have to be "lesser" than 100%.
Oh, and the extra/special levels and such confuses me a little. I don't know too much on what their place is in the run, like when they're done and such.
Yeah.... it's taking a while. Truly sorry. Haven't made any progress in a while, but that should change.