Editor, Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Experienced player
(730)
Joined: 6/13/2006
Posts: 3300
Location: Massachussetts, USA
I'm sorry that not a lot of people are posting to help out; I would, but I've never even heard the game before, let alone played it. If you get a strong WIP I'll download the ROM, just to see how you're doing.
Editor, Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Experienced player
(730)
Joined: 6/13/2006
Posts: 3300
Location: Massachussetts, USA
The strafe running style is going to be new to me, and it is going to be a long run... but if my ideas work out, it's gonna be awesome. I just need a few questions answered and a master at the game to offer input.
Editor, Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Experienced player
(730)
Joined: 6/13/2006
Posts: 3300
Location: Massachussetts, USA
It looked good... gave you an extra 4 seconds to fiddle around with, and I see you played around with the heartpiece even more.
What was weird was that the optimal movement, i.e. backwalking and such stopped as soon as scarecrow was done... I think this would seem weird to a first viewer watching optimal movements and then suddenly unoptimal movements (not counting flipping over the counter of course.)
By all means, I believe that this section is done, go start on the next section!
Editor, Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Experienced player
(730)
Joined: 6/13/2006
Posts: 3300
Location: Massachussetts, USA
Is it fast? does the game have good reflexes/action? is it a long game? is it entertaining/ would people watch it? if so, go for it.
what do you think of me doing Jetforce Gemini?
Editor, Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Experienced player
(730)
Joined: 6/13/2006
Posts: 3300
Location: Massachussetts, USA
Oh no it got rejected? bummer, 100% seemed like a lot of effort and from the sounds of it it seemed really good.
Back to this run, I was able to get the last .m64 post to work perfectly, it wasn't before, so I'm glad that I can view the .m64's for this from now on.
Editor, Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Experienced player
(730)
Joined: 6/13/2006
Posts: 3300
Location: Massachussetts, USA
well, I played the first level on Mupen, and watched Twisted Eye's test run, and watched 3/4 of the SDA run. I am quite impressed/intrigued with this game, to the point of consideration of TASing it.
Before I make a decision about trying it out I'd like to ask a few questions about the game itself, and making the run itself:
About the game itself:
What's the projected length? how much can be improved from the SDA?
What is the goal? Obviously it should be completed as fast as possible, what is the minimum required to beat this game? same as SDA, 100% Tribals and ship parts?
What is skippable? are there any glitches? What is the bare minimum to complete the game (seeing as how 100% would take too long, despite mostly picking up all items anyways)
does damage ignored look fine or sloppy?
should there be speed/entertainment tradeoffs, like shooting every monster that appears insetad of running past 1/2 of them? Because the guns a'blazing in this game looks wonderful. I noticed that some rooms you need to kill enemies and some you don't, but importantly like the Mario 64 120 star should there be a entertainment/speed tradeoff?
About making the TAS:
What settings/plugins should be used? gln64 graphic made this weird transparent white overview of Juno's body on the top left corner, covering the weapon. I also noticed this with jabo, is it going to be that much of a problem?
When you get hit, instead of the screen turning red it turns black for a few frames. again, is it going to be problematic?
Floyd: is he nescessary to use? do you have to do the Floyd missions? I found that a TAS will carefully plan every shot that's made, making running out of ammo not a problem, plus there's ammo to be found everywhere. while an infinite ammo source sounds good, it doesn't seem nescessary if many monsters are skipped, and the ones that are killed don't waste ammo with crazy aimed shots. Also, I'd haate to have to try to make a 2 player TAS of this, since I do not have a second gamepad and I do not possess the skills to control two players at once.
Does this movie desynch while making it? (This is a HUGE deal.) does the .fla file thing get too anoying or cause problems?
How long will it take to make a movie like this?
Would it be accepted in leiu of its length?
Feedback would be greatly appreciated, plus a guru at the game to help me out if I do decide to do this.
Editor, Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Experienced player
(730)
Joined: 6/13/2006
Posts: 3300
Location: Massachussetts, USA
sure no problem.
apparently in the workbench there's a lot of people that hate the run, despite the vote statistics so maybe I should cancel it... people think SSB is a bad choice for TASing and that my goals are fuzzy and the movie ie repetitive. Meh, I'll give it a few more days and see what happens.
From what they were saying though it seems your run will be fine.
But it still miffs me a little.
Editor, Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Experienced player
(730)
Joined: 6/13/2006
Posts: 3300
Location: Massachussetts, USA
When making these movies we're recording game button input, so that when you replay the file in the game itself it "plays out". A desynhc is when making or watching the movie, the input and what is going on in the game becomes thrown off by as little as one frame, which can be very crucial and cause the replay of the game to not work, in that the button input that is being done doesn't make the character progress, like running against walls, dying and such.
Editor, Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Experienced player
(730)
Joined: 6/13/2006
Posts: 3300
Location: Massachussetts, USA
I just did some testing of a few games:
Armorines: Project S.W.A.R.M. and Star soldier are both very good. Armorines is very similar to Goldeneye playstyle (same strafing shooter type) and Star soldier is very Gradius esque, when I got some power ups it got quite explosive and fast paced.
My aim is to systematically test some if not most N64 ROMs and see which would make good candidates for TASing. While I did that before, I'm trying to keep a more open mind now to really see if I can find good candidates.
I might consider Sin and Punishment or Jet Force Gemini. Those two are appealing to me.
Editor, Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Experienced player
(730)
Joined: 6/13/2006
Posts: 3300
Location: Massachussetts, USA
Good news- I was able to get through the entire first WIP. No desynch at the scarecrow.
And I did it through deleting the .fla file that is in the save folder in Mupen. I'd remebered that OrgeSlayeR said to delete the .fla to watch Command Conquer, so I tried deleting the Majora's Mask .fla and it worked. So I'll be able to watch all WIPs from now on.
I'm not sure if deleting the .f;a all the time is going to solve desynch problems Mukki, but it's worth trying. Every time you plaback the movie file it adds the .fla file in your save folder in the Mupen directory, so see if deleting that every time it pops up solves things. I'm guessing not, but it made me able to watch the WIP without desynching immediatly.
As to flying out of water... I believe a large body of water where you can dive under, and you go near the shore and somehow start swimming, and you'll get pushed into the air while still Zora swimming... I dunno, I saw it on youtube, can't remember it too well.
Editor, Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Experienced player
(730)
Joined: 6/13/2006
Posts: 3300
Location: Massachussetts, USA
I took a liitle looksie at the first level, seems pretty cool. I'd stick with 100% kills, that seems to work fine. I noticed there were points for some kills I made, but I didn't know what caused it and yeah it looks a little confusing.
Any chance for a .m64?
Also, what does this mean for your Starfox run?
Editor, Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Experienced player
(730)
Joined: 6/13/2006
Posts: 3300
Location: Massachussetts, USA
I'd have to make an AVI of the whole thing, and encode it to WMV, then put it on youtube. I do not have enough harddrive to make an AVI of all 8 minutes, the 2 second Pikcahu/metal Mario took up 1 GB because I was making it full frames uncompressed.
Editor, Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Experienced player
(730)
Joined: 6/13/2006
Posts: 3300
Location: Massachussetts, USA
JXQ wrote:
This game does not make a good TAS. It's repetitive, and the "suck someone in and fall with them" is boring.
I see no reason to vote yes on a run that is repetitive like this, even if it "has to be", or if there are other published runs that are repetitive. (stupid reasons btw)
so 4 out of 14 stages were boring because of suck and swallow, and that alone makes it unworthy? Despite that two of those stages are faster than the Fox run?
"has to be" is a bad term, optimal is better. This shouldn't be compared to other repetitive runs, but it should be noted that, IMO there are more repetitive runs out there. when you look beyond the 4 attacks that are used the most, Kirby is running around, manipulating enemies to exact behaviors/locations, and showing off with a fighter's stance at the end.
Mukki wrote:
And I'm not arguing that the fact that there is repetitveness in other runs is a reason to publish this, I'm saying that the repetitiveness of this run should not stand in its way. I'm sure that many will enjoy this run.
My thoughts exactly.
Inzult wrote:
First off, I enjoyed the youtube videos you posted of the WIP in the other thread. I have a question before I decidewhat I want to vote.
How would you go about improving a movie like this? It's obvious that a higher score in a faster time would be an improvement, but what about a higher score in a slower time? Or is a lower score in a faster time okay? What is it measured against?
The goals of this run seem to be 'I played SSB faailry quickly and also got a pretty good score'. Maybe I just don't understand.
I'm not exactly sure how I would improve this. (it'd have to be published first.) As per the goals it'd be a total higher score in a shorter time. In terms of adidng variety or doing this differently, I don't think that a higher score in a shorter time can be met, as this was pretty optimal. At best I could probably maybe save a second or two of in-game time for a few levels, but I'd be suprised if that AND score could be improved.
And, while the goals seem fuzzy due to its hybrid nature, at the moment it's the highest score ever seen for the game. AND it was done in only 8 minutes, which personally I think makes it better.
Zurreco wrote:
No, that's the gist of it. It is a high score in a fast time, possibly the best ratio of score to time. It is possible to beat this game much faster if you don't go for high score. It is also possible to beat the score in this run, if you take more time to do so.
This run isn't comparable to a pure score or pure speed run, though. I don't know how a future submission would obsolete this, unless it is faster and has a higher score. A pure speed or score run would be a different category, I guess.
Correct, as stated in the forum and submission.
JXQ wrote:
Mukki wrote:
[the game] has such a large fanbase
Another bad reason to publish a movie.
And I'm not arguing that the fact that there is repetitveness in other runs is a reason to publish this, I'm saying that the repetitiveness of this run should not stand in its way.
I'm seeing no difference in these statements, especially after you've compared other published runs on the site that you find repetitive. It sounds like you're saying "it's ok to vote yes on a repetitive run if you liked it, but not ok to vote no if you didn't like it'.
Also correct. Vote yes if you liked it, vote no if you don't. I'm not going to be personally insulted if this ends up not being published, since it wasn't as time consuming as my first run. However, I'd like it to be since it'd make a good addition to the N64 movies.
Editor, Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Experienced player
(730)
Joined: 6/13/2006
Posts: 3300
Location: Massachussetts, USA
kwinse wrote:
Mario Bros. 4:50 521371 56111
Did you forget a digit? :P
Yes vote; the movie was very entertaining and appears to be very optimized. :)
Fixed the digit. Oopsie.
moozooh wrote:
Umm… yeah, I see some extreme variety in this run: approximately two different attacks throughout all the battles except the last one, where you use the third one exclusively. The movie is well optimized, but I don't see anything interesting or surprising in it; it isn't even remotely as interesting as simply playing this game or watching some SSBM flicks by SuperDoodleMan.
So I vote meh.
I agree. A decked out TAS of 1 player vs. 3 lvl 9 CPU's team would be far more entertaining; I believe antd did something like this as a demo. But as a run, the lack of variety is needed because swallow, cutter, and down+a acheieve the goals of fast time and high score the best. I tried to make it more varied than the first SSB submission, which exclusively used Fox's reflector for the same purpose. I do think it's more varied- I also use smash attack, back kick A, and in general tried to kill opponents in different ways- but you're right, it's not 100% varied. It's as close as I could get it to varied while it still being optimized.
Wolfman2000 wrote:
Pure speed, pure score, and hybrid...the three categories. This run chose the third.
Was the run done optimally? Yes.
Was the run done with lots of repetition? Yes.
Was it fun in the end? Hell yes.
I only have one complaint really. You should have fought Captain Falcon at the end.
But that complaint doesn't detract my vote. It should be obvious what that vote is.
You fight Ness at the end :P but it was agreed upon in the forums that it detracts from a solid ending, plus the Ness fight would be boring if done as fast as possible, the only way to make it entertaining was my suggestion to give Ness the highest % damage while keeping him alive, but it's a very unnesscesary "encore" as laughing_gas put it.
Editor, Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Experienced player
(730)
Joined: 6/13/2006
Posts: 3300
Location: Massachussetts, USA
Yes vote, I though at first that a non Sonic+Tails run wouldn't be good, but damn that was awesome! I love how the 100% run had a very different route it showed me new parts of the game, I hate rewatching runs with the same route. plus great new applications of the recently discovered glitches. And Air Battery Zone 2 was my favorite, you skipped the boss and fought the next boss with the normal zone music while the odl one was still going!! haha! great job
Editor, Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Experienced player
(730)
Joined: 6/13/2006
Posts: 3300
Location: Massachussetts, USA
Looked good. I assume this was not a level where warping would've saved time.
And now Kiddy can double roll whenever he wants?!?
I recently added a Donkey Kong Country Tricks page to the website, and the DKC3 section is lacking, do you have a complete list of DKC3 tricks/glitches that I could add?
Editor, Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Experienced player
(730)
Joined: 6/13/2006
Posts: 3300
Location: Massachussetts, USA
I was personally thinking of one of the fighter's stance screenshots just before the score tally. It'd be hard for screenshots of what you describe, because those are a little too action packed where you need to see the level in real time to get what is going on. I tried to use the camera angles and such to set up some funny Kirby moments, so maybe the funniest fighter stance. Meh, we can debate it in the workbench once I submit.
Speaking of which... wait for antd, or submit now?
Editor, Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Experienced player
(730)
Joined: 6/13/2006
Posts: 3300
Location: Massachussetts, USA
BLJ, C up when sliding, MIPs, Lobby glitch/ all the applications of BLJing, going into the level and swimming through water, going through the triangle slope and jump/diving (like in wet dry word to get to the underground city). I think that with animations it would merit a tricks page.
