Editor, Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Experienced player
(730)
Joined: 6/13/2006
Posts: 3300
Location: Massachussetts, USA
Hm, um, I don't know how many 'floats' are possible from that section, or if indeed that would A) let me reach the platform or B) let me get the moving platform because it'll definetly take longer to float up then with a cutter. It's worth trying though. It does seem that the last 2-3 floats lose a lot of velocity.
Edit: Yes it's possible to float up to there. No, it does not let me reach the moving platform, because the last floats lose velocity. I'll try again with aerial a moves, but those seem to be dependent on the velocity that you're going at. I can cutter up to the moving platform, but I miss the platform I'm supposed to land on. And using cutter the way I do is fine, since I have to wait for the second moving platform anyway. All I get is slightly more time to wait.
Editor, Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Experienced player
(730)
Joined: 6/13/2006
Posts: 3300
Location: Massachussetts, USA
there's no way of cancelling the cutter as far as I know. a jump on the first possible frame actually got me closer to landing on the platform than doing another cutter would, because the animation for doing another cutter takes more time to set up than a normal jump. with cutter I was very short; by jumping I was BARELY short.
Editor, Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Experienced player
(730)
Joined: 6/13/2006
Posts: 3300
Location: Massachussetts, USA
Improvements by others? Ha! antd and I claim monopoly on this game!!!
lol just kidding.
decided to keep going. what you suggested psychoticworm is exactly what I was thinking; finish this, then V9, then improve this. we seem to think a lot alike...
I tried everything to get that first platform- using cutter, jumping on first possible frame, using aerial a's to get there faster... Kirby is inside the platform when it shoots up. I swear I am 1-2 frame behind it. that'd be something to try and get for next time around.
Kirby Team, I'm going to try the projectile thing and see if that works on them. If I remember though, throwing was the one move that was an absolute kill (the hidden bonus of any character's up+b being better against Yoshis is lost on Kirby team if I remember correctly.)
Editor, Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Experienced player
(730)
Joined: 6/13/2006
Posts: 3300
Location: Massachussetts, USA
well, my point is twofold:
1) The Yoshi stage is improvable in both time and score
2) there are mistakes noticed by myself and others.
-BtT does not beat world record. It is recommended that TASes beat world records.
-Lost 0.5 seconds (ish, estimating) in the title screen for vs. mario Bros. This is an EASY mistake, something that's actually really obvious if you know what you're looking for. All the rest of the title screens go by faster, so it's noticable.
-It is slightly possible that there are some frame mistakes.
Link: I'm 97% sure this is optimal. Only other way is if Link can suicide himself, by at least one second slower at maximum, so that I can still taunt.
Yoshi Stage: improvable in time and score by my suggestion to aim for shooter and speedster bonus.
Fox: very optimal, although it is slightly possible to have Fox charge towards me the entire time.
BtT: doesn't beat world record.
Mario Bros.: Title screen mistake, however the fighting is IMO very impressive, the only way that a faster time is possible is if I use a cutter to spike Luigi as well. But thta level was so difficult to get both True Friend AND Brothers Calamity.
Pikachu: Optimal. 2 seconds is max.
Giant DK: if a ledge grab is possible (after much testing I don't think it is with Kirby) then improvable. If not, optimal of 5 seconds.
BtP: optimal.
In general, the run is optimal IMO beacuase of Link, Fox, Mario Bros, Pikachu, and Giant DK.
I am NOT counting the debate to use Pacifist in every single stage, as I have stated before it's going against my highest score in shortest time goal and would greatly decrease the entertainment.
The lack of a hex editor for .m64 relle hurts here.
This always happens when people notice mistakes halfway through the run, and is a huge dilemma for the author.
what happened with DKC2 102% is I was working on V8, and commited to having that be the submitted run. Halfway through I made a V9, and it was much faster and was going to deal with all the TINY mistakes that other people noticed in V8. I went ahead and submitted V8 anyways, under the assumption that I was going to work immediatly on improving it with V9 and I thought V8 was excellent quality on its own. (which it proved to be.) a few people had a problem with this, pointing out that I should auto cancel since I had already started a V9 and that it was faster. V8 was published anyways, and now I'm working in V9. (or was, then this run came along, and V9 was put on hold until this is done.)
I don't know if the time mistakes would get it rejected. Nico's was (unjustly) rejected partially because of a 17 frame mistake. my DKC2 102% was not rejected, despite me having discovered many mistakes and having already saved 10 seconds in the first two worlds.
So in general, at the moment I have no idea what to do.
Edit: made my decision to keep going. Going to try and make everything from now on be absolutely perfect., because honestly the Yoshi is a stretegy that was discovered late which happens to everyone, and the BtT and Mario Bros. thing is a few frames mistake, so meh. Plus, I'm close to the end, and to be honest everything I've done so far looks relle good, it'd be a shame to lose it.
Oh, and, uh, 1,000th post. w00t.
Editor, Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Experienced player
(730)
Joined: 6/13/2006
Posts: 3300
Location: Massachussetts, USA
Yes, much like I kept going with DKC2, and I'm improving that now... but I don't know, while it hasn't been many days spent working on this, there's a lot that has been done, while on the other hand there's the Yoshi stage which can be greatly improved by this discovery, plus my BtT doesn't beat the world record, and I think I lose 1/2 a second during the title screen of mario Bros. becuase I wasn't turbo A+Start during the whole time, which both could be considered mistakes.
OT: One more post until post #1,000!
Editor, Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Experienced player
(730)
Joined: 6/13/2006
Posts: 3300
Location: Massachussetts, USA
real time, antd had only done 5 bonus TASes, Link BtP, Ness BtP, Yoshi BtP, Cpt. Falcon BtP, and Link BtT. The Kirby BtP of 10"43 is real time, since (I think) antd and I are the only ones to do these bonuses TASed, and he didn't do any Kirby ones.
TASing the two bonus stages made me realize something- the 100% all BtT and BtP run that everyone wants is going to be much tougher than I thought, especially since it'd be nescessary to beat all 24 world records. antd, you were right- that was majorly tough.
Kirby team and Polygon team are going to be the same as Yoshi team I believe, so nothing new will come from those except speedster for Kirby. Although polygon stage I'll try to think of something else, maybe beat it with timer of 3:30, maybe try to rack up as much damage as possible, all variation (except every move done has to connect for variation to count right?) possibly some other bonus that you get from items.
Wait: Shooter bonus. 12,000. The wave part of Kirby's cutter counts as projectile. it kills teams faster than the trickster, since they go off the side instead of up and into the background. Egads!!!!! SHIT!!!! now I have to redo from Yoshi stage....
Reasoning: Yoshi stage I got 34 seconds, and if somehow they could be killed off the side instead of up, I could get speedster. Enter shooter bonus, by using the projectile part of Kirby's attack. I can still get Hawk, and double kills, get speedster, save time have higher bonus.
Now, from DKC2 102% I restarted the run 7 times, and since I'm so close to being done, and having many great levels in, and having beaten a world record.... do people want me to make another version using projectile against Yoshi Team? will you all stand by me on this one, or should I keep going? (I personally want to keep going, I'm not sure if I can replicate some of what I've accomplished so far.) I really do not want to start over, but the possibility of getting +11,000 additional points in Yoshi stage plus a shorter time is very promising. But I really don't want to restart...
Editor, Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Experienced player
(730)
Joined: 6/13/2006
Posts: 3300
Location: Massachussetts, USA
Just saved 6 frames exactly on target #8, so I'll try to optimize it a teensy bit more and keep that frame gain for the final 2.
BIG EDIT: JUST GOT 30"33. 12 frames faster than my goal. This beats the world record by 0"10.
Doesn't save any in-game time units, so no bigger score, but by frame calculations beats the 10"43.
BtP final 10"33 .m64
Editor, Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Experienced player
(730)
Joined: 6/13/2006
Posts: 3300
Location: Massachussetts, USA
using stone right after platform #5 is fastest, I lost 5 frames when trying to use down+a.
I could NOT get on to the first moving platform, it is impossible. literally 1-2 frames too slow for that move to work, too bad it's not a catchable ledge.
I tried a different method for getting past that bumper, and lost frames.
I'm close to giving up on improving by those 6 frames, I can't seem to gain any more time...
Editor, Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Experienced player
(730)
Joined: 6/13/2006
Posts: 3300
Location: Massachussetts, USA
30"43, which vid?
laughing gas is correct, in that I cannot gain any more score points, but since I BtP can be improved I think that it should, especially since I do fastest stuff except for using stone. What is the fastest downward travel, using down+a over and over?
What will be the biggest time saver is if I can catch that first platform, I don't know if it's when you appear or on a set timer, I'll redo after getting platform #5 and see what happens. I don't know if it'll be tonight or not, but I'll definetly redo.
And THEN it'll be 6 more stages to go. and only two- Metal Mario and Race to the Finish- are going to be easy. well, easier than the others.
I just need to save 6 frames to match it 30"43, I currently have 30"53.
Editor, Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Experienced player
(730)
Joined: 6/13/2006
Posts: 3300
Location: Massachussetts, USA
Pikachu dies in synch with the music? haha I didn't realize that.
The Kirby's are very aggresive... there's no way I can wait for 4 seconds to spit a Kirby out, without getting damaged by the other.
I'm going to do it the same way I did Yoshi.
Finished BtP, got 30"75, which beats the only world record that I know of which gets 30"89. There might be some small thing that I'm missing to go faster, but here's just to show what I got:
BtP test run 30"75, 1:30 in-game timer
Edit: I found out why I couldn't squeeze more time: before platform # 7, there are the fast up moving platforms, and I tested and it's impossible to get on the first (I was very close though), so I have to wait for the second platform (I taunt beforehand :P). Therefore, I have to wait the same amount of time and get on the platform at the exact same time as the WR run, so from then on I once again have to gain frames after being directly tied, despite having a much greater lead in the beginning. So that's why my half second lead couldn't be kept. It stills beats that record though, and looks really good with sliding down platforms and such.
BtP 1:30 WMV
yay 6 more stages to go! Most of them difficult!
Editor, Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Experienced player
(730)
Joined: 6/13/2006
Posts: 3300
Location: Massachussetts, USA
L4yer wrote:
Won't that switch weapons? I was playing it and A was switching them.
Here is the only m64 i have of what i did before. It doesn't go all the way to where he sees me, it justs up until the speech skip. After that i was just screwing around. If you stop playback after the skip and head up the right way it's likely he won't make it in time or he'll see you. http://www.sendspace.com/file/85myql
Oh god this is going to be hard :(
I played it through and it worked, but it was confusing. it sped through the menu, and then you clipped into the wall, fell outside the building and entered back inside, which seems like the shortcut you intended, then you hit start to go to the menu a few times, make some perfect head shots against opponents, but thoughout the whole thing you keep pressing start, is that intended?
Editor, Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Experienced player
(730)
Joined: 6/13/2006
Posts: 3300
Location: Massachussetts, USA
vs. G. DK .m64 4:55vs. G. DK WMVvs. Pikachu Youtube linkvs. DK Youtube link
Edit: just started BtP and I'm doing very well... I should be able to break a world record here, for some reason TASing BtP is so much easier, sliding off of the platforms is easy and I've saved a lot of time from TAS optimization already, just did the 4th platform. Currently 0.56 seconds faster than the 30"89 vid that I have.
Editor, Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Experienced player
(730)
Joined: 6/13/2006
Posts: 3300
Location: Massachussetts, USA
I'm probably going to do DK with a swallow, because I cannot get DK to spin over me at all. the placement just doesn't work.
SpiDeY my .m64 is on last page for Pikachu, antd's is the page before that I think.
yes I know you didn't use Kirby, I believe you got the fastest time possible with Pikachu, but I was suprised myself that Kirby could ace Pikachu in two seconds. and yes, I shouldn't be comparing time wise against your run because of different goals. if that was the case, you've beaten my time for every other stage.
do you have a .m64 or WMV or youtube of your DK fight?
Agh I am having serious problems against G. DK... I cannot get a time above 4:53 at all, I was able to do a successful spit at the bottom, but he wastest two seconds by being able to jump and float, whereas in PW's video DK doesn't recover.
Edit: Nvm, just got a 4:55. *Phew* thank god,, he was really starting to get annoying.
Editor, Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Experienced player
(730)
Joined: 6/13/2006
Posts: 3300
Location: Massachussetts, USA
How do you get DK to spin over you? I can't quite get that to work. I know to edge grab, but he doesn't want to seem to spin when I'm in postion on the edge. He'll spin occasionally, but never to the right and over me.
Editor, Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Experienced player
(730)
Joined: 6/13/2006
Posts: 3300
Location: Massachussetts, USA
I'm glad you're impressed. Feel impressed yourself, a lot of this is based on your work so you're the pioneer.
vs. Pikachu WMV
I'm happy that things are coming along nicely and smoothly. Just 8 more levels to go!
And I realized that currently I have a "highest score in fastest time" speed/score ratio going. I might create another run with an absolute highest score in mind, containing speed/score tradeoffs, but for now it's highest score in the lowest time. and no, that doesn't mean that beating it as fast as possible acheives that goal, because mathematically getting fastest time (like with Fox) in score per second calculations, is way lower than my Kirby run because 1 second = 50 bonus points, and comparitively my run scorewise is way higher than that. So official from now on: highest score in least possible time.
I'll look at highest score possible run later, like getting pacifist in Yoshi Team, etc., and really bilking out as many bonus points as possible per stage.
If anyone has a problem with me labeling my run as "highest Score in lowest time" feel free to comment. it's just that, given the new strategies that are debated, and how my run looks so far, it also seems to be most compatible with the requirements from TASvideos.org.
and it's good that it'll beat the highest score world record.
Editor, Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Experienced player
(730)
Joined: 6/13/2006
Posts: 3300
Location: Massachussetts, USA
heck, it was faster than antd's by 2 seconds. I'm very proud at how that turned out. I got 4:57 by swallowing him on the right side of the building, then thought that maybe I could lure him faster on the right. It took a bunch of tries, because most of the time he'd do an attack that slowed him down, but running right, then hopping backwards and he chased after me foolishly to his death.
OT: hey, I'm getting close to 1,000 posts.
Editor, Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Experienced player
(730)
Joined: 6/13/2006
Posts: 3300
Location: Massachussetts, USA
bumper clear? that's Mario Bros. using the bumper to defeat the opponent? it'd be hard to make that a killing move though, I've never seen an opponent be defeated by that bumper. Remember, on very hard the brothers have amazing recovery, you have to be very BM to spike them and make them not come back.
That seems like not easily reachable since a kill from that bumper is so hard, since it always makes them hit the triangle platforms and bounce back.... but I just got a 4:58 on Pikachu, and I'd hate to lose that.
Pikachu 4:58 .m64
Editor, Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Experienced player
(730)
Joined: 6/13/2006
Posts: 3300
Location: Massachussetts, USA
I'm going to try and rack up massive damage against Samus.
Pacifist in Mario Bros. is really difficult- on their own without me damaging them, they have incredible platform recovery. I have never seen them die on their own, not even on very easy.
about BtT... two jumps, it seems like thet up+air spinwheel gives upward momentum and lest me Z-cancel to start my run faster. AFA? what's AFA? I do downward drill to get the three in that tall column on the right, and I tested stone and it's slower, any other suggestions for that section? I work best when stuydying videos instead of word descriptions (I use SDA runs instead of FAQs for example.) I studied the 14"07 video and could not figure any way to improve an additional 21 frames in my run.
I'm going to go the full distance and keep working, and at the end if anyone finds any glaring faults or big improvements of time/score, I'll do a revised version right afterwards before submitting. i.e. if ppl do testing and get good results, I'll try having Link die by edge grabbing, I'll attempt Yoshi Pacifist, as well as Mario Pacifist, beating WR of BtT, etc. But they have to be good, PROVEN results.
currently I have 4:57 on Pikachu, I'm trying to reduce that to 4:58. I should have that, and maybe DK up as well tonight. definetly Pikachu fight should be up.
Editor, Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Experienced player
(730)
Joined: 6/13/2006
Posts: 3300
Location: Massachussetts, USA
agh I can't view it, youtube links don't work for me 100% of the time, bummer.
BtT Youtube LinkMario Bros. Youtube link
I'll try to squeeze in Pikachu tonight, maybe even DK as well. Then I'd have caught up with antd.
Editor, Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Experienced player
(730)
Joined: 6/13/2006
Posts: 3300
Location: Massachussetts, USA
you'd get 70,000 points for beating very easy, vs. 350,000 for beating very hard.
60,000 * 5 (number of stages that aren't pacifist) = 300,000, so you'd be 20,000 points ahead (300,000+70,000) for doing very easy. HOWEVER, you'd also lose the many ponts of speed demon, hawk, star finish, trickster, etc. bonuses.
so, no. and where's the fun in doing a TAS of very easy? C'mon, anyone can get a high score on very easy... :P
And Super Smash Bros. is a fighting game... it'd be an insult if Kirby got to the Masterhand without doing any damage.
but good thinking anyways.
Editor, Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Experienced player
(730)
Joined: 6/13/2006
Posts: 3300
Location: Massachussetts, USA
Oh, haha... eh, getting Bros. Calamity and True friend was difficult enough as it is... I had to A) not get hit B) not let Pikachu get hit, that's why I attack Luigi and Mario's fireballs C) Kill Luigi without getting Mario hit.
Throwing in Pacifist would be extremely difficult, I don't even thing on very hard that it is capable for them to kill themselves.
I think this run has more to it than "pacifist every stage!" Pacifist is used strategically to get an easy 60,000 points on individual targets who have a habit of either killing themsleves or setting themselves up for a pacifist kill. Trying to get Pacifist where it's extremely difficult to do so just for the sake of it.
Just on the record, here is the plan for the rest of the run:
Pikachu: Pacifist the sucker
DK: Pacifist the monkey
(for both, try to edge grab in the same time so that I can taunt,)
BtP: beat 30 seconds. anyone know what the world record is for BtP?
Kirby team: Kirby Ranks, and either pacifist (to appease the pacifist neophytes) or the same strat as Yoshi, cutter for Hawk, trickster, speedster.
Samus: you get points for more damage on bonus, so either psychotcworm's strategy or simply rack up as many points as possible and get an acid clear star finish in under 30 seconds.
Metal mario: Pacifist, either edge grab for taunt or swallow for speed. psychoticworm: your mario manipulation in your first 2.3 mil video was near perfect.
Polygon Team: maybe all variation, for entertainment? probably not, definetly use cutter for hawk and trickster, maybe get some triple kills ^-^
Master Hand: um, yep, beat him as fast as possible.
laughing_gas wrote:
EDIT: if it drives you insane trying to get it, then just move on.
YESSS it's driving me insane!!! I have 3-4 pacifist stages left, don't worry I'll pacifist some more guys. It's just that, Kirby was born a fighter, he needs to throw some punches, can't be pent up all the time, know what I'm sayin'?
Editor, Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Experienced player
(730)
Joined: 6/13/2006
Posts: 3300
Location: Massachussetts, USA
At Kirby Team? I'm not sure. I bet if I sucked them in and spat them underneath the level maybe... I seem to recall that, like Yoshi Team, in very easy they tend to die easily by themsleves as well, so maybe what applies in Yoshi Team will apply here, that very hard it's not as doable.
BtT
This is the BtT before I saved 6 frames.
Editor, Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Experienced player
(730)
Joined: 6/13/2006
Posts: 3300
Location: Massachussetts, USA
I didn't have time to get the taunt, since I used the cutter. I believe it saved the seconds it would've taken to kill Mario some other way and still spend time trying to get on land to taunt. I think nailing both Bros. Calamity and True Friend makes up for the missing taunt.
I must say, that was an extremely difficult level. antd, you were right- you did choose the easier run :P
Mario Bros. WMV
Editor, Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Experienced player
(730)
Joined: 6/13/2006
Posts: 3300
Location: Massachussetts, USA
I really do not see pacifist + rainbow working for me, I'm sorry. The theory is there, but we are talking about making 18 Yoshis kill themselves in order. I have studied them extremely carefully to learn the way they move, and the only way that you can get them to suicide when they grab the edge is if both of the other Yoshis are in the exact perfect spot, and the Yoshi that you want does a double jump i.e. float, heads towards the bottom ledge, and you are grabbing the edge. The Yoshis movement is already SO difficult to control even without the pacifist bonus, that it just seems impossible. All pacifist I could probably see happening, if I spent an entire 24 hours on it. Pacifist + Yoshi rainbow... not so much.
Bottom line: while I recognize that Yoshi rainbow + pacifist would net the highest score of all, I am uncertain of even being able to pull it off, and as the author of the run I appreciate everyone trying to find possible improvements, thank you but that's one improvement I can't quite do. I'll attempt it if I ever try to redo this run.
edit: actually, I'll consider doing pacifist at Kirby team, does that sound like a good tradeoff?
Moving on, and more exciting... I got Bros. Calamity and True Friend for Mario Bros. in ten seconds!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/3022/ssbhighscore-comicalflopv3.m64
WMV coming soon.
