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Yoshi rainbow gives 50,000, so it's a nescessity to have. Does the polygon team have somthing similar?
If there's more bonuses than 1 screen, there's an arrow, and if you press a or start if maes another screen to accomodate for extra bonuses. If you don't hit a or start, it progresses to the next level without counting the bonus on the second screen. very weird.
I highly suggest you use dehacked's microstorage for posting .m64's it much easier: DeHackEd's Microstorage
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Yes vote, in submission text list the specific things that you improved and how you gained time, people like to see that in submissions that obsolete movies
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That's a shame.
I'm similarly down to my last Yoshis, test run should be done soon. Of course, the only point increase would be in the shorter time, I'll have to test a little to see if I can manipulate one of the items to work in my favor to give me some more bonuses. I could not make Mew appear, and throwing an item up at a Yoshi does not make him bounce up so my star rod to get tricker + item pitcher idea doesn't work. I'll see what the last item that spawns is, and if I can get that to work but otherwise it'll just be an optimally throw all Yoshi test run.
I've encountered a problem... unless I don't taunt, the Yoshi's rainbow bonus will not schow because it's suppoed to scroll down, but even though I got Yoshi's Rainbow it won't give me +50,000 because it's not scrolling like it's suppoed to. I'll keep testing it, but it's weird.
edit: nvm it works, i just need to press a or start.
Yoshi Stage Test Run Complete
beat the vid by 3 seconds; however, I might toy around a little to see if I can relle get the first item to drop a pokeball and therefore get Mew. Any increase in points of this stage is going to be dependant on that. If waiting around for each Yoshi looks a little boring, I can redo and move around and catch Yoshi in different ways, to keep it interesting; throwing Yoshi all the time like that took lillte effort to TAS.
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so kill him with someting else :P
the only problem with throwing is you can't make double kills unless you hit another yoshi on the way. and you must wait for them to get close to the ground before killing them.
I think if shine is the fastest, stick with it. The problem with Yoshi Team as compared to Kirby team is that Yoshis, if you jump up at them to shine, tend to scatter away from each other, making double kills more difficult.
What you should do is try to get to the top platform as fast as possible, that way when they fall you have the least amoiunt of wait time. I'm not sure if nico did this, but you should try to get up there ASAP, even if it means forgoing a Yoshi or two on the bottom platform, they'll jump up anyways and you're not gong for score so no need to get them in order.
I got a clefairy to be produced from a pokeball and mimiced Mew, but did not get the bonus. Every single pokemon has appeared except for Mew, perhaps the pokeball coming from the crate has something to do with it. I have done a lot of rerecords, and cannot find a way to make Mew show up, so I'll probably just finish the level faster than intended.
or even better, I can make a star rod appear, and on the very last Yoshi throw it up at him, getting 10,000 for item pitcher instead of throwdown for 2,000. but it'd take impeccable aim to make the last Yoshi fall up and die.
Qucik question: how do I taunt while running back and forth?
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I was beyond correct. movement before an item appears affects what item it is. I have a savestate with a crate that has a pokeball in it, but I'll try to see if I can directly get a pokeball to drop, so far I've gotten crates, eggs, star rods, in different places too.
So far 10/18 Yoshi dead, 9 seconds left to likk 8 Yoshi = no speedster here.
well, getting that pokeball to drop is quite difficult. I've gotten stars rods, ray guns, crates, eggs, flowers, tomoato, heart, but no pokeball. and with the pokeball, I am finding a lot of different pokemon, but still no mew yet.
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Sir VG wrote:
Zurreco wrote:
Sir VG wrote:
Question: This is a Mega Man run. WHY IS THIS NOT PUBLISHED YET?!
You posted this less than 24 hours after the file was submitted. Kindly SHUT THE FUCK UP. This whole trend of "omg its been a whole day and this excellend run hasnt been published?" is retarded.
Obviously you don't know the rule around here.
"If it's one of the 3 M's, it's always published in a day."
The 3 M's being Mario, Metroid, and Mega Man. Hence why I ask.
Shut the fuck up, lurk more. Thank you.
that's not a rule, it's a trend. trends are not 100% consistent. While you were correct in assuming that it'd be published fast because it is one of the 3 M's. it WAS in fact published very fast, something of this calibre and being a megaman game means that it was publication was inevitable.
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that it would, but I noticed that the pinwheel has a very high chance of either missing or not really sending the Yoshis flying, and more importantly the bonuses gained from doing only throws is lost. I believe throwing is the best, it's also to manipulate pokeballs to appear, or an invincible star at the end and using only throws for single move bonus.
For the Fox fight, getting Arwing clear is worth it, because assuming I only have 25 seconds range to get speedster, that's up to 1,250 points lost, which is made up for by Arwing clear's 4,000. Basically, Arwing loses it's bonuses in terms of seconds lost after 80 seconds of gameplay. How soon does the Arwing make its appearance?
I think these are some important notes that I found on a website:
On items in general:
* If you pick up an item, *but don't use it*, you still earn No Item.
* Using any item nullifies Single Move, even if the only move you make during a
match is with an item. Even if the item doesn't connect it disqualifies you.
Health restoration items disqualify you, too.
* You never earn No Item on the Master Hand stage (where there are no items
anyway).
On Pokémon:
Pokémon you produce...
* Do count towards Item Strike (assuming no other non-item attacks are used).
* Do count towards nullifying Pacifist. *only if they damage the opponent i.e. Mew won't.
On thrown items:
* They *probably* disqualify you for Shooter.
* They do *not* disqualify you for Item Strike.
* They do disqualify you for No Item.
On Pacifist:
* Shooter, Item Strike, Smash Mania and some other bonuses which require you to
use only one type of move in defeating your opponent are NOT earned when you
get Pacifist (which happens when NO move connects).
On Shooter:
* Projectile attacks you can use that won't disqualify you are:
The "slash" part of Kirby's Air Slash (Up+B)
On Single Move:
* All item attacks disqualify you.
* All throws disqualify you.
On allies:
* Whatever they do, they don't affect special bonuses dependent on your
actions. If you sit back and let your comrades finish off Giant Donkey Kong,
you *do* earn Pacifist!
Note about the Mario Bros. fight- getting Fox as the ally shouldn't be difficult, based on this logic:
when entering the Yoshi stage ona different frame, the Yoshis are different colors.
So, alternating which frame I enter Mario Bros. should get me Fox. Although, if I find a perfect Bros. Calamity + True friend strategy, maybe it won't be nescessary to need Fox.
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Here's what I've discovered for making a plain old item appearing:
Item appearing TRULY is random. it is entirely on character movement. You can test this by making a savetstate at the beginning of Yoshi stage, then go about starting to kill Yoshis in real time as fast as possible. eventually, an item will drop. note what item it is, then go back to the savestate, and then go about killing Yoshis as fast as possible in real time. (real time ensures that your actions will be VERY different.) a different item will drop at about the same time.
So my guess is to TAS as fast as possible for all Yoshis, and then note which Yoshi dies before the first item appears, then keep trying different methods of killing that Yoshi until the desired item appears.
Crates drop 3 items, I think I remember 3 pokeballs being possible from dropping from playing on the console, so Crate is the absolute best item to have dropped? since I'm not going for speedster since that's improbable the time wasted throwing the crate and getting the 3 pokeballs is way worth it. Can 3 mews be out at the same time? if not maybe two pokeballs can be left there, and one thrown just before Mew leaves the stage.
For your Yoshi fight, throwing actually is very good, Fox has the fastest grab/throw speed and it's guaranteed to send them sideways off the screen. Double/Triple kills is also good, nico had it right in the Kirby Team fight.
Also, try to manipulate at least one pokeball, because some are excellent Team killers, noticably Staryu, Snorlax, Hitmonlee, Meowth (good because you already know what spawns Meowth.)
progress: currently 1 second ahead by the 3rd Yoshi grabbed.
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yes that's what I was thinking... the ony restriction is for cutter, does that count as an aerial attack if you start it on the ground or hanging on a ledge? and are spikes possible in Mario Bros?
and for doing hawk in Samus and Master hand, there seem to be faster attacks that deal more damage, for instance up tilt+a, smash attack, etc. would restricting myself to aerial make the fight be slightly longer?
but of course, 1 time unit = 50 points so yeah that tradeoff is good
I should end the Polygon team at 3:33 to get an extra bonus there, I can definetly get way faster times than the other two high score runs, however I will not be able to match nico's 4:24. but 3:33 gives some extra time for items, should be managable, plus give me 9990 points.
I just did a bunch of testing; changing which frame you enter a level does not affect what items drop, as I varied entering the Yoshi stage on the same frame different times, didn't get the same items, and tested entering the next possible frame different times, and again different results. So probably, in order for extreme item manipulation just play to beat the very first Yoshi, and keep doing that until an item drops; then, if it's a non good item, go back one or two Yoshis, and beat them again slightly differently.
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So I cannot MAKE a pokeball drop as the first item, but if a crate/capsule/barrel drops I can make pokeballs drop out of that? Hm... Barrel will be hard because most levels it needs to smash against something
psychoticworm wrote:
I was thinking along the lines of close to 2.45mil-2.5mil...
Trust me, I've spent years, since the game was released on N64, up to recently, trying strategies and attempts to get the highest score concievable in the game. I have been eager to go for a world record for this game(which finally happened) and possibly more. For some reason SSB high scoring intrigues me. I've thought it out several times, what bonuses would be better off getting, what strategies would give me ultimately more points...I'm pretty sure, there really is no other huge thing I'm missing...my strategy is basically it. It just needs optimized very thouroughly.
Optimization up the wazoo is what I'm aiming for ;P
One bonus of interest is Hawk, giving 18,000! possibly in the Mario fight I can use down+a in the air to rack up damage and use cutter to spike them downwards? and I should definetly try to get Hawk in the Master Hand fight because it is so easy
For those interested, I made a Microsoft Excel chart comparing in game time units for all 5 runs (Kirby High score V1, Kirby High Score V2, Kirby High Score TAS, Nico Fox, antd Fox.) antd's and my times are obviously blank because we've only gotten up to Yoshi Team, but you can download to compare times and fill in the char as we produce WIPs.
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correct.
A thought just occured to me... bonus wise, psychoticworm's vid is very precise, except for doing things faster/flawlessly, making mew appear, making fighting polygon team better, and getting Bros. Calamity + True friend in Mario Bros. match, plus a few other tiny things, is a significantly higher score even possible?
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the damage accumulated would nullify the throw down and judo warrior bonuses, as those require throws to be strictly used for the stage.
I just rewatched the Mario Bros. fight, WOW was that awesome. I'm still writing up all the bonuses you had earned per stage and the total score at the end of each stage to use as a benchmark. when I finish that, on to Yoshi strategizing.
antd have you made any progress of Fox run?
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it compromised Pacifist, it dealt 6% damage. plus, I reduced it down to 4:52 anyways, I'm very satisfied with that time and score. check the .m64, it was a perfect swallow drop spitting Link out just slightly above the bottom of the level, and used a cutter to just barely avoid death by one frame.
That's good advice for the Yoshi stage, I figured that backthrows were better since they took less time. and I'm guessing that the throw bonuses of throwdown, judo warior etc. are better than the special move, smashless etc. of using only upper cut. Since I'm testing everything, I think it might not hurt to try out both, but maybe a little research into the available bonuses would remove the need for that.
Hrm you seem to have gotten 41 seconds, and yet it was really well executed, is speedster possible with Kirby doing throws? I guess we'll see. I noted that two items dropped, a crate and a hammer, so those can be two potential mews right?
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Luck is based on what input happens on what specific frame. It might seem like Luck in real time, but it's manipulatable in TAS. What I'm wondering is what to manipulate to make certain items appear. Luck manipulation is not my forte, I generally need to know ahead of time how to do it and then I can manage.
mmm, chicken ramen noodles tastes so good....
tonight I should have a gameplan for mopping the floor with them yoshis. I'll be writing down that psychoticworm got for bonuses, consider more available bonuses that can be got within the 30 second time range for speedster, and compare up+b vs. all throwing.
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for single player, a predefined time when an item drops you can affect what item it'll be? I think that changing the frequency of item drop rate would not be allowed/practical, because changing item drop frequency only applies to multiplayer.
So maybe it's just make do with what items do drop, manipulate the pokeball to be the item that drops, and get Mew out for 15,000? So you said controller input after the pokeball is thrown affects the pokemon, what affects what item will drop? same thing?
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did nico get speedster on Yoshi Team?
edit: yes, he got 15 seconds :P
not pinwheel attacks, either throwing or up+b, depending on which gives better bonuses. Luck manipulation is going to be essential... the get specific pokemon thing I mostly understand, the make-the-pokeball-appear-trick not so much. I did not see a single item drop in nico's run, so maybe not... unless antd what causes items to drop?
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there is indeed. Every second counts!!!!
Actually, 1 second wasted = 50 points, so I have 200 seconds to acheieve a bonus of 10,000 to end up even.
Speedster is anything above 4:29. So, you only lose 1,500 points to have a 30 second margin, and in that margin, with extreme luck manipulation I bet a lot of other bonuses can get racked up.
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well, you were only 50 shy in your vid, which compared to the other large bonuses available is incredibly small. Bigger differences between scores will come once the larger "team" fights come, because frame perfection will really shine there.
So I think I can officially say, "Link Done".
psychoticworm wrote:
I don't quite remember what stage it was that I got the Hawk bonus on, I could swear it was on vs Link...I guess I'm wrong.
I did test it in Link, and it doesn't work. I don't know, maybe something else? *shrug* time to start Yoshi Team planning. That's what I love about TASes, you can stop after a difficult part and plan the next instead of having to do 100% of all research beforehand and cross fingers that all goes well.
Not that I haven't already done extensive researching of course, as evidenced by bringing the Kirby video back into use.
Now, for Yoshi team: You do all throws, and there are some juicy bonuses attached with that; is it also an option to do all up+B cutters? for the teams, they have reduced strength so that attacks have more oomph, and a cutter is a guarantee fast send yoshi/kirby/polygon to the top of the screen, possibly more than one enemy at a time, so speedster is slightly possible. Are the throwing bonuses higher than using only up+b?
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yes, I can imagine. The problem is that DK and Pikachu's up+B are ideal for them to miss the ledge, because it's fast moving, has little friction so a ledge is nescessary for them to stop, but it's not there because you're grabbing on. Link does not do his up+B frequently, you can reverse his direction mid spin, and is not as fast/frictionless. how many times when playing as the console did you DK spin too far off the ledge, same with pikachu? but Link never had that problem, he just couldn't reach back to the platform *ahem*
I'll make 2 copies of the .m64 tonight, one to test faster strategies to save at least one second for the swallow maneuver on the right, and one to test Link on the left side. I have my doubts though if it'll work. If all ends badly, I'll still have a backup with 4:51 completion (although it'd be nice if I can squeeze an aerial out of it.)
Edit: I just tested getting aerial bonus, it can't be gotten, not by sucking Link in by air and landing on the platform.
BOOM shakalaka!!!!!
Just got a 4:52, ending with Kirby off screen at the bottom. While it's not as impressive an ending like chasing after Link like in the posted WIP, it hits that exact sweet spot to spit out Link at the very bottom. I have it preserved with a savestate, so I'll try to replicate it to have Kirby show off more and such, and if that fails I have the 4:52.
Oh, and swallow/copying damages Link, so that's a no go.
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I'll definetly try that. A free Aerial- who could pass that up?
I noticed that Link did not use his down+a air at all. he only used bombs, boomerang, or used his Up+B to evade me in the air (I would start sucking when he got close, and he'd swirl over my head, wasting a full second.); those are the only moves he demonstrated in the 4 seconds that I toy with him.
antd wrote:
You can make Link come to the left edge. I don't know how to properly position myself on that edge though so the Link dies and not Kirby ^_^.
If it's at all posible?
I tried, not extensively though. I'm imagining a scenario like DK in Nico's run, by edge grabbing and haing Link fall down past. The problem I see with it is two fold:
One, Link does not use his up+B on the ground ever, especially not in the short time frame we have. (this is also actually a very good point- I have a very short time frame to manipulate enemies, so if they don't behave a certain way within that time frame, then that particular strategy won't work.) DK and Pikachu can be killed by this ledge grab because their up+B does not damage Kirby (in DK's case, if you're holding onto the ledge, he won't damage you because you're beneath him.) DK spirals and falls because he consistenltly does it and the mechanics of his spin make recovering difficult, same with Pikachu.
If I remember, Psychositcworm did you mention that the left edge is bad for Kirby to do the swallow rountine because it's sloped? I didtinctly remember this one piece of info being brought up before.
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thegreginator wrote:
comicalflop, for you Link battle I have a few questions: Could it be faster by going to the left edge of the level to do it? Could you manipulate Link to not roll at the beginning (maybe if you jump over him or something instead of running through him)? And, is it possible to suck in Link as you're falling off the edge, so you dont have to wait on the ground with him? Maybe the problem here is that you cant spit him out in time and you end up dying. Also, I understand shooting Link out of your mouth horizontally ruins the pacifist bonus, but what about shooting him out the top by copying his ability? Could this work in conjuction with falling off the edge and then swallowing him as you fall? And could it be possible to save time by swallowing Link at a different time so he doesnt jump after you spit him out (as seen in psychoticworm's video)?
Good work.
Hm these are all interesting points, I'll address them all.
-faster going to the left ledge- no. Psychoticworm pointed out that the left ledge is sloped, and actually pushes Kirby closer inwards instead of out to fall down like desired. Nico showed that grabbing a ledge can make an enemy fall, but if I go to the left edge (I tried) all Link ever did was throw bombs and hit me out of my ledge grab with his sword.
-He rolls through me if I run right through him, and any method of jumping over him is going to negatively alter his actions; that's why I do those hops in the mini tower, because it made Link move non stop to the right. You must remember, this game I believe has the most sensitive enemy outcome based on input. That said, I might try to wait a little while and jump over him one second later; as I said that was a test run (one that nailed my projected time) but I might fiddle around with it a little more to see if I can squeeze one more second out of it.
-in a previous desynching .m64, I jumped and floated way above the ledge, and as I fell I sucked Link on the way down and was able to spit him out at the last second. I gained absolutely no time from it, as I got 4:51 as well.
-correct, I cannot spit him out in time, as I stated there is a 1-2 frame oppurtunity near the edge that requires Kirby's position to be very precise. I could've gotten a 4:53 or 4:52 if only my drop was perfect in an earlier version, sigh...
-I hadn't though about copying, I'd have to test if that damages the opponent or nullifies Pacifist.
-It's all about placement- it took psychotic worm a little more time to set up where he sucked up Link, and ended with a great drop that left Link with little jumping- the problem is that the manipulation before that is skethcy at best, he loses preciosu time waiting for Link to come over. I have Link arrive at the destination the fastest, which is offset by Link jumping. Interesting to note, we both suck Link at 4:56, so in reality both our Kirby placements were perfect.
Again, I'll have another go and see if I can shave off at least one more second. And if not I still matched the optimal projected length.
Thanks for taking such a critical + creative outlook to try and find interesting and new improvements.
thanks for constructive feedback
laughing_gas wrote:
comicalflop wrote:
My avatar matches my name? how so?
Well, kirby is in a "flopped" position, and it looks quite "comical"
Haha you're quite right. Alrighty, the avatar stays for a long time to come. I generally try to make my avatar match whatever game I'm working on, I cropped this picture to fit 80x80 and thought it'd be appropriate since I am doing two runs with Kirby. But as you've pointed out, it cuts to the core of my forum name, so kudos.
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I was thinking that I could probably position myself 1-2 pixels closer to the left... the problem is that there is a 1-2 frame range of Kirby's position as he sucks in Link (as Psychoticworm pointed out) where Kirby can fall down and spit Link safely on the wall... one frame too early, and you hit rock bottom and die before Link does (opposite of how DK, pikachu, and metal mario handle being inside Kirby when the bottom of the level is reached.) 1 frame too soon and you spit Link out before you start to descend, giving him plenty of time to recover. So I'll check and see if there's a frame I can turn one pixel closer to Link, and see if I can spit Lnik out JUST before hitting the bottom, who knows it might save a second.
My avatar matches my name? how so?
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yeah, based on the strategies, and how Kirby will be positioned at the end of every stage I don't think they're doable. There are other bonuses to abuse.
Plus, I am pretty sure Mystic ruins the No miss clear bonus at the end, 300,000 points down the drain.
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A vid is makeable? excellent, that means no worries about desynchs and such.
Comet mystic is when you die off the top of the screen without losing a life. normal mystic actually makes you lose a life, so it's no good. I don't know if either of those can/will fit into the run.
I have gotten Mystic, from testing a suicude throw against Link, it's activated by a death so no good.
