Voting yes for awesomeness and new strategies. I liked the alternate take on Gate 2 in particular, and seeing X run all over the place in the Gate fight was fun.
Wouldn't the final shot be faster if he did flame sword instead of body strike? Could it not be done?
Also it seemed you had to allow that because letting him do that fire tornado move would've killed you. Maybe you need to let him do more fire swords so you can allow one more fire tornado at the very end?
Other than that, I'm not sure how the strategy could improved. That one seemed to work quite well. Is that one hit with the buster+ice crawler intended to happen?
That reminds me, with enough distance it could probably be done with the ice weapon, too (assuming it damages Duo while it's crawling on the floor). The advantage with that weapon is that it's a delayed weapon, but it still moves so it wouldn't do another hit afterwards (like Flash Bomb might). I'm not sure if theres enough room to do that properly, though, and the charged shot would take some extra time to hit.
It could work if Duo was jumping away from you.
I was so certain this wasn't the case in MM8. My memory is playing tricks on me again. Argh!
Then how about using a Flash Bomb to do that one damage, since it lingers and therefore you can shoot it earlier than a single buster shot? (Ie., shoot it immediately after launching the charge shot and start recharging.)
Looking good, but couldn't you shoot special weapons while you charge your buster in the Duo fight?? If buster indeed takes 120 frames to charge, you could have 3dmg/120 frames vs. the current 2dmg/120 frames. Was there a reason this wouldn't work? There shouldn't be.
I'm a bit surprised all special weapons suck against Duo, though.
Edit: Damn Clown Man stage is so long. Also, you shouldnt had used the bomb against the miniboss in Clown Man in your speedrun. Those only do 2hp damage.
Got to keep that in mind in case I ever redo the run.
Atma wrote:
AngerFist wrote:
2. How are you supposed to stop him doing his crazy destroyer? As far as I'm concerned, when he has 5hp left, he will hang on the wall and destroy the ground, no matter what.
You can only kill him before a crazy destroyer with thunder claw, as it's the only thing that deals enough damage to kill him before it goes off.
I've personally killed Grenade Man with the buster before he did Crazy destroyer (although it was PAL, on console and only once). I'm not sure if it can be done faster than just letting Grenade Man do his thing, but I know it can be done. Shooting a fully charged shot as he's starting a longer move might work out. It's been years since that happened, so I can't remember it in good detail.
Cremator wrote:
Also is it truly faster to let Grenade Man do his Crazy Destroyer (and also not to alternate between mid/non-charged and fully charged shots)?
3. The way I killed him (semi charge shooting) is the fastest as its related with Mega Man's time to fully charge and Grenade Man's vulnerability period.
I'll expand on that a little, since I told AngerFist to redo it in the first place. Grenade Man has a 60 frame invulnerability period or thereabouts. A first level charged buster shot does 2 damage against him, a second level, 3 (uncharged, 1). It takes 120 frames to fully charge the buster for 3 damage, meaning 3 damage/120 frames, vs 4 damage/120.
So alternating between charged shots and uncharged ones while changing distance like is done in MM3GB, for example, wouldn't work out? Alternating between charged shots and Mega Balls wouldn't do either, I suppose, since they only to 1 damage/hit as far as I can tell.
So I take it you either didn't get the Frost Man death abuse working with Mega Ball or it was too slow? Also is it truly faster to let Grenade Man do his Crazy Destroyer (and also not to alternate between mid/non-charged and fully charged shots)?
Other than those, looks good up to what FractalFusion has encoded so far. Haven't seen Tengu Man yet.
Finally, it might be better to try to first get rid of the bosses that cannot be SDC'd. Guys like Mijinion.
I don't quite understand this one. Why would you want to get rid of those bosses first who would possibly benefit from more weapons/items? Of course you want to kill bosses who can be killed quickly without extra stuff, right?
I think getting Saber+ and Hyper Dash right away is the way to go (then again I've always said that and nobody's interested to go with it). They are the most beneficial abilities you can get in the game, after all. This assuming we're talking about 8-boss here. 100% might differ a bit and for 1-boss it isn't worth it.
I was wondering if you knew about how Mega Man can warp from the pit to back to the platform as it's getting off the screen in Cossack 3 (essentially wrapping around the screen as far as I can tell). I had that happen to me just now when I was on the Cossack 3 autoscroller, playing on the console. I'm not sure if there are other factors to this.
Not very useful, but can be entertaining if it can be incorporated in a TAS.
Another thing, similarly to what t3h Icy demonstrated before, you can die vs. Bright Man repeat and if he kills himself on the Pharaoh Shot and drops his health refill on you, you get life energy and warp to the teleport room, with Bright Man still dead, Mega Buster equipped. Likely only wastes time, though.
Sorry if you knew these already, I haven't been keeping up with the latest WIPs, I'm a bit lazy in that regard.
Edit: Hahaha, apparently the latter isn't limited to getting energy post-mortem if the boss dies fast enough afterwards. Silly me.
Heh, the first SDC technique sounded simple enough, but in practice I just couldn't do it, it's really hard. I need to figure out how to position my arms to do the second technique. I just can't imagine myself doing that very fast, at least longer than short bursts.
If only there was another way to elevate oneself midair in addition to Wind Shredder... ah well.
I was also wondering if it was possible (or rather, feasible) to achieve level 8 (or whatever was needed to get items from bosses) from intro and virus blue alone (or that and 1 game over in case of non-assisted segmented running). It would probably make a big difference from the current 100% route I used back in 2006. Probably works out...
Anyway, thank you for the information. I appreciate it.
Speaking of things that would be useful for non-assisted running, that jump at the end of Dizzy part 1 gave me a wonderful idea. Using that jump & Nova Strike & Wind Shredder makes that part a hell of a lot faster than "levitating" across like we do now. No doubt it'll be useful.
I was thinking if this was useful for the TASers, too, but I scrapped that idea due to the various trade-offs you have to make to get the armor & wind shredder, even if the Ultimate Armor is a lot faster than Zero for that stage. Of course, if you can Nova Strike under the spiked platform and grab the other side mid-air without needing to lift oneself (and without dying), it'd be considerably faster than the current method, probably enough so to warrant getting the Ultimate Armor and fight Zero as X (special weapons & charged shots could possibly do damage a bit faster than just charged shots).
I'm sure there are lots of other things that can be used. The Duff McWhalen fight, for instance, could work. Like I said, there's a lot of new stuff in this TAS. A lot of new stuff to try out.
What's the advanced SDC technique used in the last stage? It may not be doable without tools, but I'd like to know so I can try it out. How precise do you need to be?
Amazing TAS all around. There was lots of stuff I didn't know about and I liked it a lot.
But say... did killing Dizzy when you did instead of later net you anything? Was that time stopper of any actual use before Glow and Skiver, or was it just for the show? I was thinking if changing order was possible.
There are other differences with the characters. For instance, Model P's charged attack is different between the two characters. I can't remember which was better right now, though, but the other shot a spinning blade and the other did something else that was less useful. (Or maybe I'm just remembering differences in the boss patterns?) Whether that counts as relevant or not is for you to decide.
Ashe's buster is more powerful, so I'd probably go with that.
Watched the scrabanian run; looked good otherwise, but wouldn't it be faster to simply chant-kill the last Slig rather than possess the other one, run all the way to the last Slig and kill him?
No reason to look down on X7. Though it wasn't exactly the best in the series, it's highly exploitable.
I disagree on the part about Zero being too slow. In fact, he's most destructive in quite the many boss fights. Also, he has that high slash dash jump ability/trick. Tornado Tonion's weapon is pretty good, but Explosion is by far the best weapon in the whole game.
Unless one'd be going for 100%, X isn't worth using. I'm not sure if it's worth collecting power-ups, because although Hyper Dash and * Barriers are highly useful, the actual activation takes forever. Of course, that's not a problem if you're using in-game time. Rank up takes a while, too, so that should be avoided.
I've done some extensive legwork on this game already - I'm fairly sure my current run uses the fastest possible route there is for low% and any%. I think it would be worth it to check out the run on SDA, at least for reference purposes.
Is PS2 emulation/tools really that advanced yet?
Heh, I've actually played this previously and planned a bit, too. I think I'll play it again to see what the route was again.
Good luck with this project. This game is one of my favorites on WS alongside RockMan.EXE WS, so I would love to see it TASed.
How did I manage to miss this topic?
A few things I believe hasn't been mentioned yet: First off, you can slide across the gaps in Frost Man's beginning without jumping (it looked like you jumped, I could be wrong). Secondly, this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ep3xOwH6_0M. I am 95% certain it can be done with Mega Ball.
Grenade Man can be killed before he uses his Crazy Destroyer, but I'm not sure if it's beneficial or even not damaging to manipulate him into not doing it.
It seems to occur when your character enters the portal just before being hit by a nightmare virus. In my case, it occurred when the virus was underneath.
YouTube video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8mCC0emna0E (may not be ready)
But getting the Reploid after entering the portal was when only your character's splitting image collides with it. So I don't know.
How does it allow travelling longer distances? You can't do anything until it is done. And is that really your video? I thought 65 was Decremated, because he claimed that video.
Yes, I am 65 and also Decremated on YouTube and some other places. I used to be Cremator on SDA, too, but I changed it later to 65, which unfortunately serves to confuse everyone that these nicks are not the same person whenever they are not too busy confusing me with Cromarty or Cauldrath on IRC. I can confirm you who I am by sending a PM on the SDA forums if you wish.
I still publish all my speed runs under the "Cremator" nick to keep it unified. Incidentally, that might cause me to look like a liar when I respond people on the forums as 65. The old system didn't give that much room for confusion as the old nick was still shown in my profile by default.
Enough about me. The reason I suspect you could possibly move after entering is how I got hit repeatedly after "entering" the portal and the screen got black. I didn't test moving at that point, because I was too confused at the time, but it's not a stretch to think that moving around could be possible.
So you tested that and it didn't work, then?
Do you have any further knowledge as to why it happens? I can only guess, so I was wondering if tools revealed anything new about it.
Actually, speaking of that, I was wondering if a similar death glitch (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1FdSXAGQcxE) that I got in Mijinion's stage could be possibly abused to travel longer distances or even beat the boss while the screen is black.
It seems to me like taking a hit during the transition cancels the transition unless/until you die, and unless I'm mistaken, you can normally still pick up items while the screen is fading (at least that's how it sounded like on your TAS through Sheldon's lower branch).
but since the triple slash works differently in those games, the button sequence is pretty much the opposite. I'm not sure if it'll save any time because of how the slashes work, though.
arukAdo wrote:
Off course, killing all end boss under 5 seconds was on purpose... seem very logic.. its a glitch... you was not suppose to rape the bosses like that
i wasn't talking about the new SDC method. i was referring to exactly what i quoted. namely, turning around to start the second slash.
I stated that I believe you are right and then went ahead and speculated how this technique could be used in X4/X5. Unlike in X6, in X4 & X5 your slashes appear in front of you, then behind you, which is the exact opposite of what happens in X6. Your point?
Yeah, I'm being master of the obvious here. It's what I do.
Satoryu: I think it can be done on X5 (and X4, for that matter), but since the triple slash works differently in those games, the button sequence is pretty much the opposite. I'm not sure if it'll save any time because of how the slashes work, though.
Seeing you found that 2/5 SDC strategy, FractalFusion, are you planning to use that against Nightmare Mother/Dual Cells, since the second slash reaches the core? Or does that trigger invulnerability?
Personally, I'd find 100% the most interesting category of the bunch, since it'll probably be worth it to unlock Gate stages early (not completely sure about that, especially since Hyper Dash could be gained early in any case and having to rely less on stuff like Double Barrier) and potentially overall go for the most unexpected of routes.
As for Ultimate X, not only would it be boring, it'd also be slower in most levels, the levels handled by X aside.