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Well I suppose I should add my input. Great job! It's impressive to see that it's possible. the music gave me a headache though. x-x. Not that it matters if I vote yes but ehhhhh I vote yes. :3
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AKA man, I'm so glad you decided to join in and question my tactics! It was bothering me so much that I kept missing that I tried again...and again...and again...and again. Finally after about 6 hours I found one more way of manipulating luck and it became the only way I was able to shorten the battle by one turn! Awesome dude. The Solvering battle is now one turn shorter! I obliterate him in only 9 turns. To top it all off I was able to avoid one more enemy battle on the field. This saved about 2 seconds or so. This new run is 9.7 seconds faster.
http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/5583/Quest64USAop2.m64
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I thought it was pretty good. I'm gonna vote yes, but I think it could be a little better. I don't know how far some of those enemy manipulations can go and some of those movements so I can't really fault you too much. Just think with some playing around those could go smoother. Still worth the yes though, and you chose a very entertaining game to watch.
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Y0SH1 wrote:
One time, I accidentaly bumped this game, and it froze. The next time I played, the file was still there. I entered it, and right when I started, it let me choose about 20 spirit gem powerups. I was still near the beginning of the game. I can't remember where I was, what I did, and how many gems I got to choose. My game is really old, though. I hope you can even do this on an emulator.
As cool as that would be to be able to find a glitch like that, I doubt shaking my hard drive will make the game mess up that nicely...That is awesome though. o-o
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AKA wrote:
I watched it and I'm deeply confused about the choices made. How come you miss enemies on several occassions? initally I thought the game has desynced but it came apparent that it wasn't the case. Is all that weird movement in field areas to avoid battles or to manipulate a better battle in the near future?
Misses in this game seem totally unavoidable in boss battles from what I can see. As hard as I tried and for as long as I tried that was the best possible thing I could get. I can't even believe I got Solvering in 10 turns. Initially I couldn't get fire lvl 3 to land all three more then one time!
My seemingly crazy movements avoid enemies and also make the battles faster to escape from later on. Without some of those crazy movements it would have taken 3+ turns to escape that battle.
The misses on the death warp battle were strange. Seems like if I missed them they would hit me. Those missed hits were on purpose though because the enemies were able to kill me faster.
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Twelvepack wrote:
were there no wings available at that first inn?
I seem to remember most inns giving out wings so you can warp back faster then suicide.
I'm fairly sure you have to be out of the forest to use them. Therefor it is faster to death warp. He did that in the SDA run, actually got the wings and never used them.
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Alrightie! Here is the first official optimized WIP. It's about 10 seconds faster then my last test, so I must have done something right..heh. Everything was pretty smooth going until the Solvering battle. No matter what I did I couldn't get that darn lvl. 3 fire to hit all three times every time! If I could have I would have saved one turn. Big deal right? It bothered me so much! I came to within 9 HP of saving that turn, but it's like the game knows I am going to do it or something. I can't crack this game when it comes to boss battles. Everything is predetermined for quite a few turns. The only thing that effects things it getting hit. Not even entering the battle at different frames did any good.
In the end I went for entertainment. I think I could have gotten 15 fire spirits and only had lvl 2 fire for Solvering. That I think would have taken me 14 turns or 4 more then I took...versus the 7 battle turns I took to get the extra spirit. Solvering is such a boring battle that I don't think there will be any objections to taking entertainment over speed. I could be wrong of course. Taking one route versus the other might save 10 seconds or so, but you have to admit that seeing Solvering get obliterated in 10 turns is much more entertaining? I also went for dramatic effect with HP and MP. I could have gone without going down to 1 HP and I sacrificed 3 frames to use my last 3 MP. Who wants to see someone with magic left? Heh. Well I hope you guys enjoy! Please tell me what you think!
http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/5536/Quest64USAOP1.m64
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Dang man you BROKE this game! I didn't even think those glitches existed and I've known the game for over a decade! Very nicely done. I definitely leave this my yes vote.
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Zurreco wrote:
When you walk up to an enemy, the staff icon appears above you or them. You press a button, and your character swings the staff at them, causing direct non-element damage. That is a melee attack.
Like I said, I remember it doing a lot more damage than most spells in the beginning of the game. I could be wrong, since I don't think I ever dumped all my points in to one element before Solvaring like you are, but it's worth at least seeing how much damage it does (un/modified).
Fortunately having Cheat Engine is saving me ungodly amounts of time in testing. If I want the elements to be different all I have to do is change them..so I've tried a lot of combos. I also tried melee attack on the first enemies. Requires a third turn on the enemy because of 1 HP :(
Fire is fastest so far. I am going to go with it. I think I will begin the optimizing process. I will save several turns on the field leveling up fire. Then I think I will level up earth so I can get avalanche and shield...at least shield will be needed later on because some attacks from bosses seem completely unavoidable. I will test this though...
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Zurreco wrote:
DonamerDragon wrote:
power staff is totally useless unless you actually use a staff...unless I am doing it wrong...heh...
I thought Power Staff charges your melee (since you melee with the staff, afterall). Confirm/Deny.
I eagerly await a new test run using Wind, but I'll still watch this one.
e: Well, at least we know that Earth isn't the way to go up to this point! So how much damage does melee incur on Solvaring?
I tested wind, which will be slower because the enemies on the way to Solvering are resistant to wind, making it slower in the end. I didn't even bother finishing the test. I was on the first enemy and it took five turns instead of 4...and I still had to fight that enemy 5 more times with unpowered fire or earth which normally defeats them well enough. What melee are you talking about though? I played this game a lot and I don't even know what you're talking about...
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OgreSlayeR wrote:
Wind magic might even do more damage to him. I did about 40 some damage to him with the Large Cutter attack.
I tried out wind but I couldn't take 40. The only thing that really took damage was fire. I will give some more tests to wind though, taking 40 would be pretty shweet. o-o
edit: Large cutter does take between 29-32 normally. Thank you so much for pointing that out! I think it will simply be faster...using fire 3 took almost that much and limited it to 9 turns. Large cutter brings that down to 8 turns if I do it right...and it might save me earlier on with some enemies. Very awesome. Looks like I have to do another test...heheh...
Edit 2: I tested out wind and it seems like all of the enemies I use on the way to level up my wind is resistant to it. Seems like no point to save one turn on Solvering if I have to gain 5 in normal battles to get elements strong enough. Gonna stick with fire.
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Zurreco wrote:
Well, I have this sneaking suspicion that your fastest tactic for Zephyr will also be melee, but I could be wrong. Do you think you can level Fire up to the Staff Charge spell, and then shift all focus to Earth?
Meh. If you don't power up Fire and still melee Solvaring, is it faster than using Earth spells with the occasional MP refresher? If that is the case, don't bother with Fire. The amount of time you're saving in non-boss fights using a strong multi-hitting spell is greater than the time lost using spells on Solvaring.
Well I made a third test run. It saves considerable time on Solvering. I think I might go with my tactic to level up earth after. power staff is totally useless unless you actually use a staff...unless I am doing it wrong...heh... Anyway give this a look, what do you think?
http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/5420/Quest64USA3.m64
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I gave fire a shot. It does make the battle a lot faster but I run into one problem. What about later in the game where I might need the earth shield? As much as I wish I could make the enemies miss every time...that's just not happening from what I can see right now...heh. But yeah fire allows me to take 8-10 damage 3 times a turn...great move but has some disadvantages later on. I don't know if it's more powerful then Avalanche. Perhaps I should power Fire to 16 to Solvering and power Earth from then on?
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I suppose at this point I don't really have to say anything or even add my yes but it appears I'm going to anyway doesn't it. :P
Great job on the run, looks really smooth. crazy lag cures. ;)
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Zurreco wrote:
Halamantariel wrote:
Aren't you a little too close to Solvaring to dodge his attacks after you melee him?
If memory serves me well, you can just barely dodge the huge dirt explosion if you melee from the farthest distance. I used to do it like that when I played the game way back in the day, since I (as I said before) thought that the staff was the strongest attack up until beating Zephyr. I could be wrong, but it's worth looking in to, since it should speed up the battle a bit.
Why doesn't Fire Fox have the word melee in its dictionary?
I'll give it a shot man, thanks for the help. I was never able to dodge that attack. I'm also looking into the possiblity of not going to Dondoron again. It appears as though in the SDA run he doesn't even bother talking to the king...you can complete that part of the game without returning the orb? geez....
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I manually lowered the number of earth spirits I had. It didn't desync at all! The same events happened exactly how I played them out! Until of course the last turn...taking one away extended the battle by one turn...I'm considering chopping off a 30 seconds at the beginning by not getting the spirit in the hey...at the sacrifice of one turn in Solvering.
On that other note it is very possible to GAIN one turn if I get more battle won spirit. I really don't think that will be as much of a time saver.
What do you guys think?
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Zurreco wrote:
e: You can call me Reading Joe!
What I didn't turbo through was fairly interesting, though I wonder if Solvaring would have been faster with just constant melee and dodge tactics. Regardless, keep at it!
Aye, you can dodge his far attack very easy, but in order to dodge the close attack you have to miss. Regardless of how much HP ups I get it will be faster I think to dodge his far attacks. Now I just have to figure out how in the world I'm going to manipulate this game to do what I want. As of right now I'm stuck doing what it wants...as can be seen by a few skipped turns.
As for just continuing to hit him. I think I might do that. The def down is a nice touch and does give me the ability to take 4 or so more HP...but only for a couple turns and totally evens out from having to us my Dew Drop...which I want to save for later in the game.
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OgreSlayeR wrote:
One thing you might want to do is put the text speed on max. I'm pretty sure you didn't do that though I wasn't paying that much attention. Do you think sub 2 hours is possible? There's A LOT of walking in this game so the shorter the better or it will get boring fast.
doesn't seem to make any difference. all text can be brought right to it's end by taping "a" and going to the next message after only one frame. it takes more time for the windows to apear and disappear then it does for the messeges to scroll...sorry if that's hard to understand. I can't figure out how to word it this late at night. :P
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Halamantariel wrote:
The WIP looked good, although I could see at some places that you hug walls and that slows you down a little bit (like one set of stairs in the starting castle, and then some walls elsewhere). It's clearly visible at full speed.
Other than that, it was good. The fight was still a little boring, but hey you can't do much about it. It's the first fight, and I think it's intended to be boring. :)
Good job, continue the great work!
That's just a test. I am far too much of a perfectionist to be allowing that kind of inaccuracy in a complete run...hehe...I will optimize it when I think I have a good plan down for it. New game...some testing...doing a new game is kind of new grounds for me too. Usually I try to find mistakes and correct them...heh.
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Alright guys, here is the new one. This is to Solvering getting a total of 16 spirits before fighting Solvering. I used a different battling technique..including leveling up before Solvering by manipulating strong enemies to be easy. Very nice. This is one more spirit then in the SDA run I do believe at a lot faster rate of speed. This movie appears longer then my other test because I went to the castle town and "death-warped" myself back to that inn...if I had gone back to the current position in my last test it would have been more then 15 minutes I think. Let me know what you think!
http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/5377/Quest64USA2.m64
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Halamantariel wrote:
DonamerDragon wrote:
If someone can figure out HOW I will do it.
Sounds like a job for Nitrodon! (Or some other ROM hacking and luck manipulation guru)
By the way ... I'm eager to see this run finished! That's one game that I liked a lot when I was younger. I used to rent it all the time, and then scream as my memory pack was not compatible with the game or something (the game crashed because of the memory pack, which was non-standard).
I just re-watched the SDA run of the game, and it looks very good. Of course, I wouldn't suggest copying that run for the TAS, but it can be a pretty good "guide" or something.
Good luck with the run!
Yes I figured I might be able to get help from him. He's really good at the memory stuff.
I'm using the SDA run as a guide but for a TAS a lot of his strategies aren't needed...
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Zurreco wrote:
I thought the fastest way to deal damage was pumping the Fire spell that makes you staff melee crazy buffed...
Perhaps it is, but loading everything on earth allows me to get the shield which I won't get hurt for up to 3 turns apparently. I know someone will ask why I don't manipulate misses. If someone can figure out HOW I will do it. turns are decided many moves in advance and I don't know how possible it is yet, though I will try. Maybe future runs will involve fire? I'll play with it...
IMPblackbelt wrote:
I remember beating Mammon with 41 Earth and enough Water to get the magic drain. Just go up to him and keep beating on him. I say 41 Earth because (without manipulation), the shield almost never lasts 3 turns. Keep in mind, that's:
0: Shield
1: Smack
2: Smack
3: Reshield;
Lather, rinse, repeat. At 40 Earth, I only rarely got the shield for 3 turns, usually having it last only 2, whereas 41 Earth almost guaranteed 3 turns.
The only spell that would really do better than constant melee would be Avalanche, but that needs some luck manipulation, and it isn't very effective in fights where there aren't lots of targets, or a really big target (like Mammon). 50 water isn't necessary at all, but it helps to get points in water almost immediately.
You have my full support on this game. It's really long, and seeing it completed quickly would be like watching porn... Almost seriously there. o_O
I plan on getting earth to level 50 for power regardless. Depending on how easy manipulation proves I will also try the possibility of all fire or getting no water. I will see about it. Yes seeing this game done so fast would be so awesome...I think it can be done in half the time of the SDA run, and that was pretty quick to me. In fact now that I've been playing it, going through the game manipulating it will almost be as fast as a normal console run getting mostly powered up in all elements.
ledauphinbenoit wrote:
Watched the WIP. Everything seemed pretty well done. You did skip the next to last spirit as was mentioned by someone already.
I would vote to stop in at the Inn before fighting Solvering. Both, because it will most likely save time and because there already is enough "running around" in this game so any chance to minimize running through already covered territory is a plus on the side of entertainment.
In my estimation, the Solvering battle is really the "hump" to get over for this game in terms of a TAS. You'll have some decent spells by the next boss (or at least Avalanche at 24 Earth) so they won't be as tough. Whether it's easier to do some leveling on the way to Solvering is probably worth investigating.
While power staffing might be a possible solution to killing, I always stuck with Avalanche for its simplicity. You don't have to buff anything or worry about things wearing off. You can stand far away, avoiding close attacks (and sometimes longer animations). Most attacks from far away are avoidable. It just works. Even with Mammon, I remember hitting him with 2-3 boulders a cast and he would go down very quickly.
You might find some better battle strategies if you test some things out to see what you can find. I hope you decide to continue with this run.
Yes my new tested route has me going through town getting the element and stopping at the inn. I agree that the solvering battle is the hardest, even in the SDA run it was a very long battle. I will probably get avalanch mostly because I can manipulate up to four hits...that's considerable. I'll be playing some more. I think this game will end up being very short if I do it right...
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evilchen wrote:
i like the game, i played it hours for hours to get through(it was like a nightmare for me because i couldn't speak/understand the english at the time it came out) but..
are you going to take all this magic upgrades :P(100% run xD??) ??
or just an any% :/
well ill download your movie and check out what you have done until now!
---
edit:
wow baby what a boring fight even with fastforward :x!:/ there must be a solution :/!
and ps: you didnt take the magic upgrade before the last !! you just walked to it and then you go away
I can't do a 100% run of this game mostly because it would involve a lot of battling to get the left over spirits. As far as I know there is only about 100 free spirits. I could be wrong though...
Yes that fight is boring. I will be collecting as many spirits I can as fast as I possibly can.
JSmith wrote:
Even if he doesn't go 100%, the fact that there are level-ups literally sitting there waiting to be picked up can be useful. IIRC, there are several that are only a few seconds out of the way throughout the game.
Levelling one element only seems like the best tactic to get more powerful attack spells earlier. Also, if you level the right element to level 35(?) you get the Exit spell.
Yes, that does help. That allows me to become very powerful quite fast...
Exit and also there is a spell that protects me completely for 1-2 turns which I can hopefully manipulate. I plan to get earth and water to level 50 I think. water mixed with earth becomes potent as well.
ledauphinbenoit wrote:
I would think an any% run would be a great prerequisite to a 100%, especially since there is much to figure out the first time through.
As for Spirits, I would think you'd go for Avalanche straight away and every boss battle afterwards is much easier.
I definitely plan on this. You're right..planning this the first time through will be hard. I hope I can even do it. This game is reletively short without battles. I think it will be entertaining just to see someone kill this game in a short time knowing how long it normally takes.
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Since I don't have any artistic obligations I've been trying to take this game apart a little bit. I made a test run which goes through the forest and defeats Solvaring. What a long arse battle this is going to be regardless. Being that I am wizzing through without defeating enemies I figured this would be faster...however after going through that 45+ turn battle with Solvaring I've decided to change my idea on enemies. I think I will manipulate easy battles along the way to build my elements before trying to face him...while on this note I must also mention that I skip my turn a few times. There are more then 45 turns but I had to skip a few of them because no matter what I miss on those turns. ALL attacks, even healing misses when the game decides this...I haven't figured out how I could possibly work that.
I'm considering my path as well. I've run into a dilemma on this. If I go right to the forest...which I can I save having to go up to the castle one time. Since i don't really need bread or healing items as much as the SDA run did I just skipped it...but going to the inn would allow me to use death as a shortcut and warp me back to the castle where I do have to end up anyway. I'm not sure if this will save time, but I have a feeling that it will save some so I will try it.
Any suggestions and helpful advice is more then welcome. I'm trampling new ground here, I have to consider a different strategy then a console run because in theory I can manipulate whether I am hit or not...especially in this game where a lot of attacks are avoidable just by moving right.
THIS IS NOT OPTIMIZED. It looks a little sloppy. I mean it's just a test I don't want to spend an extra 5 hours making it look pretty when there is no point yet.
TEST 1: TO SOLVERING
http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/5281/Quest64USA.m64
TEST 2: TO SOLVERING
http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/5377/Quest64USA2.m64
TEST 3: TO SOLVERING
http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/5420/Quest64USA3.m64
OPTIMIZED 1: TO SOLVERING
http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/5536/Quest64USAOP1.m64
OPTIMIZED 2: TO SOLVERING
http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/5583/Quest64USAOP2.m64
TEST 4: THROUGH THE CAVES
http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/5596/Quest64USA4.m64
OPTIMIZED 3: TO WEST CARMAGH AREA
http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/5742/Quest64USAop3.m64
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I've actually started disliking runs this short. It's not long enough and I can't really see anything...and since I've never played this game before I just a bunch of SimCity-esk land building and destroying going on...heh. I know it probably doesn't matter now but I will leave it with a "meh"
Very well played, I mean obviously I couldn't even tell you if this could be improved. I can see it is very optimized, great job on that. Well played.
