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If I start a run and do a savestate after the first room , could you get me the initial seed value? I think I could then use that information to edit the initial RTC in the save state file to achieve the longest Spider Droid timer. Make sense?
EDIT: This save for example.
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OK so that confirms that the random call for setting the spider droid timer doesn't happen until AFTER exiting the crashed escape pod.
So was the initial seed value set at room 2, or at room 4?
It looks like my original thought was correct of 5-6 being the minimum possible before the spider droid timer is set.
It looks like the acid drips and skimmer sequence are going to have a much greater impact on where we are seed wise when we get to the slots. I'd say that definitely suggests that we try to maximize the timer for the spider droid.
If I start a run and do a savestate after the first room , could you get me the initial seed value? I think I could then use that information to edit the initial RTC in the save state file to achieve the longest Spider Droid timer. Make sense?
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If I understand Logic.000 correctly,
Getting something increases the random seed.
looking at something increases the random seed.
entering something increases the random seed.
specifically typing "use" something increases the random seed
Or maybe these only increase random if the 'something' is a non-recognized object in the game.
Radiant, can you clarify/confirm?
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OK the above is for sure incorrect.
If I understand Logic.000 correctly,
Getting something increases the random seed.
looking at something increases the random seed.
entering something increases the random seed.
specifically typing "use" something increases the random seed
also, if flag f2 is set AND flag f4 is not set, random is called.
I have no idea what these two flags are.
So...the following is probably more accurate, but may still be incorrect due to the f2 & f4 flags
2 - Janitor Closet (Starting Room) - RANDOM CALLED 1x
1 - Data Archive - no random calls
4 - Hallway w damaged door - RANDOM CALLED 1-2x
3 - Keycard Body - RANDOM CALLED 1x by getting keycard.
4 - Hallway w damaged door - RANDOM CALLED 1-2x
2 - Janitor Closet bottom floor - RANDOM CALLED 1-2x
5 - Bottom of elevator - RANDOM CALLED 1-2x
6 - Control room - no random calls
7 - Keycard Slot - RANDOM CALLED 1-2x
9 - Prep Room - RANDOM CALLED 2x for getting suit and for getting translator
8 - Shuttle Bay - RANDOM CALLED 1x for entering pod
10 - Inside Escape Pod - no random calls
8 - Shuttle Bay (briefly as escape pod launches) - no random calls
12 - Escaping Arcada - No random calls
10 - Inside Escape Pod - no random calls
104 - AutoNav Status Screen - no random calls
13 - Kerona Approach animation - no random calls
30 - Crash Site - RANDOM CALLED 1 or more times (maybe)
14 - Inside Crashed Escape Pod - no random calls
30 - Crash Site - RANDOM CALLED 1 or more times
So it looks like the minimum is 10 calls before the spider droid timer is set. Again, this DOESN'T include random calls by the f2 & f4 flags.
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I'm probably going to need Radiant's help with this...
Here's the sequence of rooms from beginning in Room 2 until exiting the crashed escape pod.
2 - Janitor Closet (Starting Room) - RANDOM CALLED 1x
1 - Data Archive - no random calls
4 - Hallway w damaged door - RANDOM CALLED 1-2x
3 - Keycard Body - no random calls
4 - Hallway w damaged door - RANDOM CALLED 1-2x
2 - Janitor Closet bottom floor - RANDOM CALLED 1-2x
5 - Bottom of elevator - RANDOM CALLED 1-2x
6 - Control room - no random calls
7 - Keycard Slot - RANDOM CALLED 1-2x
9 - Prep Room - no random calls
8 - Shuttle Bay - no random calls
10 - Inside Escape Pod - no random calls
8 - Shuttle Bay (briefly as escape pod launches) - no random calls
12 - Escaping Arcada - No random calls
10 - Inside Escape Pod - no random calls
104 - AutoNav Status Screen - no random calls
13 - Kerona Approach animation - no random calls
30 - Crash Site - RANDOM CALLED 1 or more times (maybe)
14 - Inside Crashed Escape Pod - no random calls
30 - Crash Site - RANDOM CALLED 1 or more times
Any room where a guard can attack, calls logic.103 which has a random call in it. (timer for the attack?)
The key question is, does the spider droid random call happen when the crash site room is shown DURING the crash or does the counter not start until AFTER exiting escape pod into room 30?
It looks like we may be able to manipulate the initial RTC timer to have as few as 6 random calls before entering room 30 where the spider droid counter is set.
Unfortunately room 30 itself is complicated (to me). It calls logic.110 which itself has 6 random calls in it. So the actual number of random seeds before the spider droid counter may be more.
Can you confirm/clarify this theory?
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Ok for the spider droid timer...
There's a set number of random calls before he arrives correct?
If so (and if my calculations are correct) the earliest random call based on the default initial random seed (46218 milliseconds after midnight) which yields 250 into variable v93 when exiting the escape pod is 120 seeds into the game.
Specifically a seed of 42421 will yield 250 into v93. Can someone confirm my math for me?
So if we exit the escape pod before the 120th random call, we could simply adjust our initial time based on this, correct?
Additionally the 234th, 246th, 295th, 576th all will yield 250 for the spider droid logic (again, assuming my math is correct)
EDIT: My math was wrong.
EDIT#2: No I think it's correct.
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Ford wrote:
I liked the poetry during the unskippable space flight cutscene, though might I recommend that this go up along-side a version with the speed reduced to a point where it's actually possible to make out the action that's going on?
I'll look into making an encode at a slower FPS rate.
EDIT: Done. See description for 1/5th speed temp encode. The sound still sucks.
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MESHUGGAH wrote:
Sorry bout that, but I had to make a temporary encode since depending on the name no one would watched it in the first place (cause usually I submit those shitty vault runs)
Nothing wrong with vault runs. Archival of games that aren't as entertaining is still valuable if not equally important as archiving the entertaining ones. To me, entertainment is a bonus when it comes to TASing. (Which is probably part of why all my published runs thus far have been vaulted.)
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fsvgm777 wrote:
I'm completely mystified by the presence of the SIERRA.INF file that isn't present on several locations I got the game from. Moreover, I seemingly can't create the file from the game itself.
Where did you get your copy of Space Quest II (knowing it's available on Steam and GOG)?
GOG.
I simply copied all the files that installed as all CAPS for the filename (as that's how the original files were). I pasted these into a new folder eliminating all the extra GOG function stuff (launcher, documentation files, etc) and used that for the game image.
The SIERRA.INF file may be specific to the GOG version and in CAPS for some unknown reason.
I've also got a official copy of the SQ Collection (1-5) on CD (somewhere). But I have no idea where that is right now to check if the .INF file is there or not.
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Radiant wrote:
Firing the phaser is possibly slower than typing <N> <enter> though.
I think the phaser would be faster. It's only a 2-3 frame delay. Typing 'N' would require the 4-5 frames of clearing the resulting text response. I'll double check this though.
Are we concerned with also trying to set the initial RTC time to avoid guards on the Arcada? There's only a couple screens where it should impact.
I think we should be. The relevant guard has a 50% chance to show up, so that's straightforward to manipulate.[/quote]
I think guards can show up in the room with the destroyed door to the lab, but I'd need confirmation of that. So we might have to watch that room too. The room following, we can make the elevator before a guard shows up if one is called. Guards can show up in the rooms on either side of the control room. (Elevator room and Keycard Slot room). We'd have to watch both of these.
Are we worried about the spider droid?
Yes, because his movement is random. While he is on screen, he will generate calls to the random() function.
So delaying its arrival as long as possible may be beneficial
Question: if you take an existing run and alter the RTC time, does it still sync? I would expect it may desync at the guard in logic 7 (50% of the time), or at the skimmer sequence (obviously) but not at other spots; is that correct?
Correct. It will for sure de-sync where I waited for the guard at the bottom of the elevator. The rest seems mostly intact.
I briefly played around with manually editing the savestate files. By changing the Initial RTC time and the timing of button presses in the savestate, I was able to alter guard RNG actions. I think we may be able to get around redoing everything again with this method. I'll look more deeply into this tonight.
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FractalFusion wrote:
- What really bothers me is that, provided what everyone here is saying is indeed true, the AGI system only polls for movement input a fixed number of times per second (somewhere between 10-20 times a second) regardless of how fast the actual game is going (whether "normal", "fast", 100 ticks per second, or 5000) or how many times JPC-rr polls for input ("JPC-rr frames"). This has the effect that movement precision is inversely proportional to game speed, which paradoxically makes the TAS look less polished than if the game were capped at saner speeds.
I agree that it appears less polished due to this situation when slowed down enough to comprehend what's going on. That said, when watched at real-time speeds, the goofy movements are barely perceptible. This results in it just looking like insanely fast movement.
- Nice to see some glitches I mentioned before made it into this TAS.
Credit where credit is due.
- DrD2k9, I appreciate that you took the effort to entertain during the waiting times. I personally would have preferred if you entered text that was relevant to the game or this TAS instead.
I can understand that perspective. I also feel that there are plenty of viewers who will appreciate what I chose. It'd be impossible to please everyone with what I choose to type during those sequences. EDIT: Maybe think of it as the shuttle's radio.
- I look forward to the Space Quest 1 TAS.
Be prepared for the same insanely fast speeds and goofy movement. At least there aren't any crazy long real-time sequences like the shuttle in SQ2.
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So....
If c-square is able to Lua control the skimmer sequence for a specific number of random calls, then we can theoretically calculate an initial RTC time that will yield a good range of RNG seeds for the slots when we arrive there. Then we can use the spreadsheet of return-values to destroy the slots as fast as possible. Firing the phaser at nothing can help with Sarien guards after losing Roger's helmet.
Correct?
Are we concerned with also trying to set the initial RTC time to avoid guards on the Arcada? There's only a couple screens where it should impact.
Are we worried about the spider droid?
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Radiant wrote:
DrD2k9 wrote:
These are hilarious. Unfortunately not all can be used due to time constraints, but any that I can get on the screen for any length of time I will!
Great, happy to help :) I suppose that the now-cancelled run can give me an idea of where these time constraints are for commands in later parts of the game?
Yes, I don't believe there will be any changes to game actions after the slots with a new run.
As a note on RNG...I've figured out that firing the phaser while on the Deltaur changes the seed resulting in guards appearance in latter rooms.
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Radiant wrote:
Arcada control room.
(1) Push these out of the airlock.
(2) The press is all that is left.
(3) A little push for me, old sir, right?
(4) Rob is flashing another sarien uniform.
(5) A little swipe now at the translator.
Shuttle bay
(1) Push for third base now, I guess.
(2) I stand now under the little rocket.
(3) Push me over to the second power.
(4) First from the press, autopilot is in.
(5) Shut up, out of the door with you!
(6) The buckle is flashing on that belt.
(7) Move now to throttle me for a second.
Kerona
(1) Will you pick me for a little survival.
(2) Another open second, out of supplies.
(3) Get down for the belt will please you.
(4) Get off first, craft a little for you.
(5) I pick up that hunk from the mirror.
These are hilarious. Unfortunately not all can be used due to time constraints, but any that I can get on the screen for any length of time I will!
Side Note: I'm FINALLY through the shuttle sequence in SQ2 after trying to make it entertaining. Now just to finish the Asteroid portion itself. Finished the SQ2 run. Just have to make the temp encode and submit.
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Radiant wrote:
DrD2k9 wrote:
(Although I must admit, I'm going to miss seeing the root maze in the final run.)
That's a good reason to do a 100% run then :)
I thought the same thing!
Radiant wrote:
I'm hoping I can blow the whistle and immediately leave the screen and come back to have the hole in the boulder without having to watch the animation of the beast arriving.
Yes, that should work.
It does!
I've worked my way back to the shuttle sequence. I'm typing stuff in the command line that I hope will be entertaining...but no spoilers.
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OK, I'm officially cancelling this run.
Disabling the distress beacon does allow Roger to get beyond the big tree screen without the goon showing up.
Also, after trying various means for around 1.5 hours, I was FINALLY able to accomplish the bog-monster glitch without using berries. (Although I must admit, I'm going to miss seeing the root maze in the final run.)
Now I've got to explore whether the puzzle or leaving/exiting is faster than for the terror beast.
Radiant wrote:
...or maybe not since you cannot blow the whistle from within the water.
You can blow the whistle from the water, but you can't throw the puzzle.
I'm hoping I can blow the whistle and immediately leave the screen and come back to have the hole in the boulder without having to watch the animation of the beast arriving. (Wishful thinking? We'll see.)
Then on to the asteroid.
I have an idea for the shuttle sequence.
Thanks everyone for the input...keep it up!
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c-square wrote:
Looks like I'm not going to have time to work on this until the weekend, but I'll keep you posted. Or feel free to go ahead without me if you don't want to wait. Though it looks like you may have some tasks on hand already polishing your SQ2 run, which was great BTW.
No problem...I think we've accomplished quite a bit in a very short amount of time as it is.
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Radiant wrote:
Oh, and if you're considering cancelling this, I should mention that Roger's random movement in the first room can probably be manipulated by setting the system time.
Yep, I can confirm this...<sigh>
EDIT: Interestingly, after testing about 30 various initial RTC times, I cannot find a position that results in Roger triggering the airlock any sooner. It may still be possible, though I don't believe that it would save more than a couple frames.
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Radiant wrote:
Something else that came to mind.
Almost all words in the game have synonyms, sometimes lots of them, and sometimes really weird ones. On the one hand this means that several commands can probably be typed shorter; however I don't think that's actually going to save time (however, 'lever' is a synonym for 'throttle' in case it helps). On the other hand, if you have extra time, it does mean that you can type in commands in the most ridiculous way possible.
For instance, instead of "get keycard", "swipe every credit card" is a valid input. "Put keycard in slot" can be written as "fill credit card from slot machine". A next command may be "press inside from first airlock". "Get up please, rock me now" is recognized. And so forth. It's silly, but if it wastes no time... :D
In the final version, I'll definitely consider rewording commands when extra frames aren't necessary to accomplish it. I believe there's a limited number of key presses allowed for text input per frame, but I never counted it.
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The BEST part about this website is the willingness of others to help! And apparently I don't know this game as well as I thought I did. Thanks to both of you for your input.
While some may claim this submission was premature, I wouldn't have figured out these potential improvements on my own.
Radiant wrote:
To confirm your suspicions, it is not possible to navigate the maze without the gem; Roger can't move until you are able to see something.
Thanks for the confirmation.
Radiant wrote:
Some suggestions... disabling the alarm on the crashed shuttle alters the timer for the other shuttle in the room with the two big trees. This means you can possibly skip him entirely by disabling the alarm, saving some time. Once the Labion terror beast is present, you can deal with him by leaving the room to the left and reentering; he'll be gone; this may be faster than tossing the puzzle, or maybe not since you cannot blow the whistle from within the water. Finally, when the escape pod robot starts chasing you, you can hide out in the tunnel you came from, instead of the tunnel to the far right. This may be faster too?
I'll check into these things. At the given speed setting, I couldn't get back into the cracked tunnel to hide without the robot catching me.
FractalFusion wrote:
The items in the locker are not necessary to complete the game. The're are alternate solutions for the Labion Terror Beast and the platform guard on the next screen. It is unknown which strategy is faster.
What is the other solution for the terror beast? The puzzle is the only one I know of and I can't find anything on another option.
FractalFusion wrote:
You don't need to get the keycard off the dead guard at the crashed hovercraft. I think it is faster to get the keycard from the platform guard if you stone him, especially in your TAS where he falls right in front of the door (if you lure him down, you don't even need a keycard).
I assumed (but will admit that I didn't test) that luring the guard would be longer than stoning him. As far as getting a keycard, the crash-site guard's can be gotten without movement modification making it an easy pickup. It would likely take extra movement inputs and time to get it off the guard by the elevator due to the 3 frame movement/input cycles.
FractalFusion wrote:
By taking advantage of a glitch, you can enter the deep part of the swamp before the monster gets you.
I thought this was the case as well, but I couldn't get it to work...I'll revisit this idea. Maybe I can shorten this run.
FractalFusion wrote:
I think there are fun things you could have done during this sequence, without slowing down the TAS.
You're right...I'm still new enough to TASing that I don't always think about how to entertain during these kind of sequences.
FractalFusion wrote:
DrD2k9 wrote:
He also briefly stumbles into a unisex bathroom
About that, since you came from the right side of the screen, you could have entered the right door and exited the left, instead of entering and exiting the left door.
It actually took more movement inputs to do that and made taking the extra distance to the left door faster. Again this was the 3 frame movement/input cycle's fault.
FractalFusion wrote:
it is possible to make it to the end of the game before the salesman launch timer runs out....
I hadn't even considered this as a possibility...it would definitely save time if indeed possible.
FractalFusion wrote:
About the oxygen mask and the tube glass cracking sequence: If the game is on a fast enough speed like "fastest", I think it is possible to make it to the door after the cracking occurs but before the game kills you off.
I'll have to check on this. Roger's motion is stopped when the tube starts to crack. I think I tried moving him again before it finished, but couldn't. I didn't try surviving without the mask though.
FractalFusion wrote:
DrD2k9 wrote:
Unable to both open a pod and enter before being caught, Roger must flee the robot.
This is why lower speeds exist. It should be possible to "press button" then quickly "go pod" in time, without having to flee the robot. If not possible on "fastest", it should be done on "fast".
The robot always got to me before the pod door was open far enough to enter, but I will look into this more using your suggestion of a slower setting.
FractalFusion wrote:
Speaking of "fastest" being hard to control, I'm not sure why the input fps is set so low. On PC, you should be capable of an input fps of 1000 at least. IIRC the last time I used JPC-rr, I think there was a way to change the input fps.
Um...I'm not even sure what you mean here. If you're referencing the 3 frame input cycle, I believe the situation is game related not emulator related.
ANYWAY...It looks like I have more testing to do on this run....should I cancel this submission?
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c-square wrote:
Can you search for an increment or decrement to v6? Also, how do you search in multiple files?
I'll do a deeper search as soon as I can.
I don't search multiple at once. I just did a basic search for "v6 " and hit F3 a bunch of times bouncing between logic files.
