TASVideos

Posted: 6/30/2017 9:27 PM

Post subject: Game-end Goals?

Quote

DrD2k9

He/Him

Editor, Experienced Forum User, Judge, Published Author, Expert player (2070)

Joined: 8/21/2016
Posts: 1012
Location: US

This game brings up an interesting thought on what constitutes completing a game to its end. For some games the end-game goal is easy to define: save the princess, kill the last boss, reach the "The End" screen, etc. Many in the TAS community have found amazing ways to get to these goals such as game-end glitches. This game is different. It will essentially run to the "end" every time it's started regardless of how poor a player is. Considering the intent of the actual event of Decathalon in track and field is highest cumulative score, I don't see a point in not going for the best score for any events just to save TAS time. "Highest Score" is thus the main game-end goal for a human player. Given that you can't be disqualified, anyone playing should eventually reach the "end" of the game no matter how poor a player they are (and assuming they aren't just leaving the character standing still). So the way I see it, "Highest Score" is really the only true game-end goal. Thus the game-end goal for a TASer as well. I hope that makes sense.

Posted: 6/30/2017 9:24 PM

Quote

DrD2k9

He/Him

Editor, Experienced Forum User, Judge, Published Author, Expert player (2070)

Joined: 8/21/2016
Posts: 1012
Location: US

feos wrote:

I always only check stuff when it's almost too late. Does aiming for max score cost any time for this game? Or fastest time automatically gives you max score?

Yes going for a max score takes longer time than a run that doesn't care about score. Unlike Track and Field on NES, failure to score in any particular event does not disqualify you from continuing on to the next event. Therefore, no minimum requirements are necessary to 'finish' an event. Most non-timed events could be completed faster with lower scores or scratches. Specifically, the High Jump and Pole Vault events could both be scratched for 0 points each and result in a significantly faster game completion as the bar would never raise to a new height requiring more attempts. All Speed based events yield higher score as the time to complete them decreases. As little entertainment value as this run may offer, a shorter version simply full of scratches and poor performance just to achieve a shorter TAS would be even less entertaining in my opinion.

Posted: 6/30/2017 8:01 PM

Quote

DrD2k9

He/Him

Editor, Experienced Forum User, Judge, Published Author, Expert player (2070)

Joined: 8/21/2016
Posts: 1012
Location: US

Woo hoo! Now I don't have to finish my old WIP on this game! I got bored with it and was dreading going back to it. Besides yours is better anyway.

Posted: 6/22/2017 2:49 PM

Quote

DrD2k9

He/Him

Editor, Experienced Forum User, Judge, Published Author, Expert player (2070)

Joined: 8/21/2016
Posts: 1012
Location: US

zoboner wrote:

At 9.40, i seen your character have more horizontal speed or is it simply attracted by the loading screen?

The increased speed only seems to occur while the background is also moving. It happens multiple times in the run. These are also the times when lag frames are most present. I couldn't otherwise reproduce this horizontal speed.

Posted: 6/18/2017 2:52 AM

Quote

DrD2k9

He/Him

Editor, Experienced Forum User, Judge, Published Author, Expert player (2070)

Joined: 8/21/2016
Posts: 1012
Location: US

PCachu wrote:

It's good to know that one of the great constants of the universe is "Double Dragon's back-elbow attack is stupid OP."

And thankfully for this version it's available from the start of the game. This would have been so much more tedious without it.

Posted: 6/16/2017 10:33 PM

Quote

DrD2k9

He/Him

Editor, Experienced Forum User, Judge, Published Author, Expert player (2070)

Joined: 8/21/2016
Posts: 1012
Location: US

Spikestuff wrote:

Basically this TAS is asking a simple thing. Do you like quirkiness or not? I prefer the quirkiness even if it is slower because the entire point of your TAS is going for in-game time not TAStime. I'm voting No on Entertainment.

I can't disagree with you. The quirkiness of that publication makes it more entertaining. I considered the quirky/humorous angle. Unfortunately this game doesn't have the funny animations like in NES Track & Field, so running a player that only fails just makes for a longer video without adding anything entertaining in my opinion. I also considered trying to match Ashton Eaton's event point values of the current real-world world record for Decathalon. While it may have been interesting from a 'matching real-world' perspective, I didn't feel it would add much entertainment value to a watcher over a run based on maximal scores. I'm frankly not expecting many 'yes' votes on this run for entertainment purposes. I'm not even sure it's vaultable. But the only way to find out was to submit it.

Posted: 6/15/2017 3:27 PM

Quote

DrD2k9

He/Him

Editor, Experienced Forum User, Judge, Published Author, Expert player (2070)

Joined: 8/21/2016
Posts: 1012
Location: US

Radiant wrote:

Wow, so many C64 runs suddenly! I approve :D

I'm hoping to do a lot more C64 stuff in the near future. Nostalgia is a powerful thing.

Posted: 6/13/2017 10:02 PM

Quote

DrD2k9

He/Him

Editor, Experienced Forum User, Judge, Published Author, Expert player (2070)

Joined: 8/21/2016
Posts: 1012
Location: US

Oops... Yes. The movie file should probably be updated...even for 1 frame, better is better.

Posted: 6/13/2017 2:41 PM

Quote

DrD2k9

He/Him

Editor, Experienced Forum User, Judge, Published Author, Expert player (2070)

Joined: 8/21/2016
Posts: 1012
Location: US

feos wrote:

1. Should I update the movie file? 2. Does bad ending equal not saving Ana? Or they are some sort of subsets of one another?

Answering those in reverse order... They are the same thing (I'm terrible at naming branches). As I mentioned in my earlier post, the branch probably isn't necessary at all given the only difference in the 'good' ending on NES is the text change at the end. It can be eliminated as far as I'm concerned.

Posted: 6/12/2017 10:41 PM

Quote

DrD2k9

He/Him

Editor, Experienced Forum User, Judge, Published Author, Expert player (2070)

Joined: 8/21/2016
Posts: 1012
Location: US

ruadath wrote:

Damn, you're really hitting up all those C64 runs, huh? Might I suggest Shogun as your next project?

I grew up with the C64, and love it for nostalgia reasons. I'll probably spend quite a bit of time working C64 games. I'm currently working the OCEAN port of Double Dragon for C64. I'll consider looking into Shogun at some point in the future (I don't remember playing that one as a kid).

Posted: 6/10/2017 4:19 PM

Quote

DrD2k9

He/Him

Editor, Experienced Forum User, Judge, Published Author, Expert player (2070)

Joined: 8/21/2016
Posts: 1012
Location: US

zoboner wrote:

...imagine Mothrayas or Adelikat submit PONG...

I wouldn't be surprised if one of them could find a way to make even PONG interesting. As far as this submission is concerned: I had actually started working on this game as well (through maybe 3 or 4 holes) but without LUA help. I don't know LUA well enough. It's quite a difficult game to optimize (not to mention tedious without the LUA). Kudos to link_7777 for completing it! While I'm excited to see the result...this game isn't very entertaining to watch. Voting 'Meh' because the work and result deserve better than 'No.'

Posted: 6/10/2017 3:57 PM

Quote

DrD2k9

He/Him

Editor, Experienced Forum User, Judge, Published Author, Expert player (2070)

Joined: 8/21/2016
Posts: 1012
Location: US

fsvgm777 wrote:

The run itself is good, but to me, it was also a tad boring to watch. No vote on entertainment. It's good for the Vault, however.

I completely understand...unfortunately many C64 games aren't the most exciting things to watch. Sadly Jungle Hunt is much more entertaining than a lot of other C64 games. Still, striving for vault runs can be a worthy goal at times.

Posted: 6/10/2017 3:47 PM

Quote

DrD2k9

He/Him

Editor, Experienced Forum User, Judge, Published Author, Expert player (2070)

Joined: 8/21/2016
Posts: 1012
Location: US

zoboner wrote:

-When you make smaller after drank the potion, you going on the enemy (6.25) and you reappeared to a differente position... It's a bug or well it's normal?

First, I'm glad you like the run. The position change going from small to regular size is normal and results from the enemy killing the wizard. He simply re-spawns in the room in a different location than where he was killed by the enemy. This is an instance where death is used to save time. In order to return to normal size without dying, you have to use another potion that is obtained from the same room the death happens in; it just takes more time.

zoboner wrote:

-Have you intention to make the version or Ana don't die, in a futur project?

I had originally considered doing a 'good ending' run, but as Pokota stated its extra time and work for very minimal change to the game. In fact, the only a change is the endgame text on the NES version; the graphic sprites of the rope coming down at the end of the game are the same with both endings. Sprite differences between endings are only on the Genesis version. See http://www.vgmuseum.com/end/nes/c/immortal.htm and http://www.vgmuseum.com/end/nes/c/immortalbad.htm for screenshots of both the NES endings. I had submitted this run with the 'bad ending' branch name while I was still planing on doing runs of both endings, but I have since changed my mind. Truthfully, I don't know if the differences between endings are enough to warrant multiple branches for this game. As far as the branch name is concerned, I'll leave it up to the judge and/or publisher to determine if a branch is necessary if the run is accepted for publication.

Posted: 5/25/2017 2:37 AM

Quote

DrD2k9

He/Him

Editor, Experienced Forum User, Judge, Published Author, Expert player (2070)

Joined: 8/21/2016
Posts: 1012
Location: US

Basic Differences: This one may just be me, but the ratio of wizard size to room size seems different. Some level layout changes including door locations and room placement (mostly in early levels). As mentioned above, no spider dungeon. Fireball spells - You do not need to pick up a special spell to shoot fireballs. Sadly, fireballs are only effective on flying enemies. Combat - You cannot defeat goblins/trolls with those fireballs; these enemies must be engaged hand to hand on the combat screen. At least in my opinion, enemies seem to be more direct chasing you and thus more difficult to dodge in the NES version. Other than the missing spider level, these aren't drastic changes

TheRealThingy wrote:

Saved 1 frame. No need to thank me. http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/39212392916414543

It may not be necessary, but gratitude never hurts...thanks.

Posted: 4/17/2017 4:11 PM

Quote

DrD2k9

He/Him

Editor, Experienced Forum User, Judge, Published Author, Expert player (2070)

Joined: 8/21/2016
Posts: 1012
Location: US

feos wrote:

My intent is to help you learn newer skills, especially when this run is a perfect example of things we need to understand and we don't. If you have any questions about reversing, I can guide you.

Thank you. One of the things I have appreciated about TASvideos.org is how many people in the community have been willing to help and teach.

Posted: 4/17/2017 4:01 PM

Quote

DrD2k9

He/Him

Editor, Experienced Forum User, Judge, Published Author, Expert player (2070)

Joined: 8/21/2016
Posts: 1012
Location: US

Archanfel, TheRealThingy: Did either of you read any of the discussion for the current published run? Did you completely read the comments for this submission? Your arguments are exactly what this submission's comments are all about. Both of you have claimed that the current submission is sub-optimal/sloppy in the same way that Feos did when I submitted the currently published movie. You've made an improvement over a few frames, but neither of you have shown anything that guarantees your 'improvement' will not negatively affect RNG and that the rest of the run will play out at the same pace or even faster resulting in a faster completion. The whole point of this submission is to show that doing one part of a game slower can still result in a faster overall run. And yes, I realize 8 frames is a minuscule improvement, but it is still better. It's also why I indicated the intended sarcasm regarding those 8 frames in the submission comments. Furthermore, Archanfel, I may still be a relative newcomer to TASing, but I'm not so naive to think that name dropping will somehow improve my chances of a submission being accepted. Feos had a legitimate part in why this submission even happened, it's only proper to give credit where credit is due. Feos:

feos wrote:

You can try yourself:

I'll look more into learning how to reverse engineer, but I know it is currently beyond my understanding. Hopefully that will change soon.

feos wrote:

Relying on trial and error isn't an effective way of tasing anymore.

While trial and error may not be the most effective or efficient method of actually TASing, it is still a method that those of us learning can use as a foundation to build knowledge of new methods upon. We shouldn't expect all new people to the TASing community to use the most up-to date or advanced methods from the moment they join. If I had perceived that as a requirement, I would likely have never started because I wouldn't have felt that I had the necessary knowledge or skills to participate.

Posted: 4/16/2017 1:38 AM

Quote

DrD2k9

He/Him

Editor, Experienced Forum User, Judge, Published Author, Expert player (2070)

Joined: 8/21/2016
Posts: 1012
Location: US

feos wrote:

Oh man, please don't make me debug this freaking RNG :D

Nothing says you HAVE to. But...if you're so inclined...I'll help however I can. As I mentioned in the description...it was more of a curiosity to revisit it in the first place.

Posted: 2/3/2017 7:22 PM

Quote

DrD2k9

He/Him

Editor, Experienced Forum User, Judge, Published Author, Expert player (2070)

Joined: 8/21/2016
Posts: 1012
Location: US

Level 1 through the boss. http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/download/36789285352457459

Posted: 1/27/2017 8:05 PM

Quote

DrD2k9

He/Him

Editor, Experienced Forum User, Judge, Published Author, Expert player (2070)

Joined: 8/21/2016
Posts: 1012
Location: US

I think "delayed" would be the better choice until I can get the run tweaked again. Maybe "delayed pending anticipated improvements" or something along those lines. My only reasoning goes back to the "what if" situation that the resulting tweaked run isn't faster overall. Then again, if you reject this one by mentioning the anticipated improvements and then it turns out being the better run, I suppose it could be un-rejected with an accompanying note that the anticipated improvements didn't pan out. So either way could work. I suppose the choice of semantics is yours. It might be a bit before I can update it though. On a different (but related) note: if either this or a tweaked run gets published, should we include you as a contributing author for pointing out these improvements?

Posted: 1/26/2017 8:25 PM

Quote

DrD2k9

He/Him

Editor, Experienced Forum User, Judge, Published Author, Expert player (2070)

Joined: 8/21/2016
Posts: 1012
Location: US

feos wrote:

PS: Several site members including me really like your attitude in that you use to dig to the core of the situation, keep that up! You have the bronze medal there btw! We don't give prizes for that, but you beat quite some guys there!

I'm thankful that my thoughts aren't falling on deaf ears. Often I'm just trying to better understand for myself what even I'm attempting to do. But if my curiosities and comments are broadening the discussions regarding the more philosophical side of this hobby, then I'm very honored and humbled to have sparked those discussions. Prizes aren't as important as understanding. As wonderful as they may be, prizes don't help me TAS better in the future; understanding does.

Posted: 1/26/2017 6:15 PM

Post subject: Thoughts on Sub-Optimal play.

Quote

DrD2k9

He/Him

Editor, Experienced Forum User, Judge, Published Author, Expert player (2070)

Joined: 8/21/2016
Posts: 1012
Location: US

feos wrote:

Every time you jump from the floor, you lose one frame. Don't do that. http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/36588513630103101

Duly noted and appreciated. I'm not trying to be difficult with the following, just throwing out some thoughts I feel should be considered when judging games. Yes. Your tweak improved the character position by 2 pixels. I'll admit that your partial work is more optimal in the immediate sense, but I think it's unfair (and a bit of a speculation) to extrapolate out this minor positional/frame difference as a claim that my submitted complete run is less optimal than a complete run using this improvement would be. It very well may be an accurate assumption, but at this point we don't know that as fact. Isn't it possible that taking one portion of game slightly slower can result in a faster overall run? Until a complete run using this improvement is submitted, my submission is the most optimal complete run known. If it's valid to suggest that a run is sub-optimal based on one or two frames this early in the run, I feel that it's just as valid to suggest that even this minor improvement in the immediate sense could potentially have RNG effects that would lengthen the resulting complete video by those same couple frames. I'll gladly tweak this game again, but in the meantime shouldn't my submitted run stand as the current best, given that there is not yet proof that this improvement demonstrated in a partial run will result in an overall improvement? Forgive me if I sound like I'm complaining, I don't mean to. I just feel that a judgement of sub-optimal play should be based on full run times not on partials. One of the rules of the site is that runs must be complete to be submitted. I always assumed that there were two reasons for this: 1) Because people are unlikely to want to watch partial games. 2) Because doing one part of a game faster than someone else doesn't mean you can do the whole game faster. I realize that you're just trying to keep the best-of-the-best on the website, and rightly so. But isn't that what obsoleting previously published runs is all about? A complete run that is the best known gets published then when someone betters it with a new faster complete run it obsoletes the first. Again, I'm not trying to be difficult, but it does make me wonder how many games or runs have been rejected in the past due to "sub-optimal" play when there's no complete comparison to claim the submitted run as sub-optimal. I understand that we don't want sloppy play on the site, but there's a HUGE difference between sloppy and sub-optimal play. Thanks for reading this far, if you have. I'll step off my soapbox now.

Posted: 1/10/2017 11:45 PM

Quote

DrD2k9

He/Him

Editor, Experienced Forum User, Judge, Published Author, Expert player (2070)

Joined: 8/21/2016
Posts: 1012
Location: US

Ok, removed the branch.

Posted: 1/10/2017 10:48 PM

Quote

DrD2k9

He/Him

Editor, Experienced Forum User, Judge, Published Author, Expert player (2070)

Joined: 8/21/2016
Posts: 1012
Location: US

Right. The inputs are still close together, but vary anywhere between 2-5 frames. Overall the new submission saves 131 frames over my original. RNG changes brought the overall improvement down from your 150ish frame improvement of Stage 1.

Posted: 1/10/2017 10:26 PM
(Edited: 1/10/2017 10:55 PM)

Post subject: A note of thanks and resubmission.

Quote

DrD2k9

He/Him

Editor, Experienced Forum User, Judge, Published Author, Expert player (2070)

Joined: 8/21/2016
Posts: 1012
Location: US

feos wrote:

...This run is also quite sloppy. Here's my 105 frame improvement of what looks like level 1. http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/36146295028709928 The jet controls are indeed shitty, but not shitty enough to lose so much time.

Thanks for pointing this out. Somehow I missed that attacking while airborne allows horizontal motion to continue while standing attacks don't. I've reworked this submission and was able to further improve on even your time through stage 1 by an additional 33 frames. Varying the frame delay between "A" button presses while using the jetpack affects lift height and I was able to more smoothly traverse a couple of the high platforms in that stage. I also discovered that there is a 1-frame window in which you can jump out of mid air after taking damage. I utilized this to speed up the final boss fight.

Spikestuff wrote:

Kinda disappointed you didn't playaround with the Kangaroo.

After rewatching the original submission, I agree; it is disappointing to see the character just stop. So this time I played along the whole time with the Aussie. New submission - http://tasvideos.org/5356S.html

Posted: 1/2/2017 5:50 PM

Post subject: On the concept of Glitches vs. Debug actions

Quote

DrD2k9

He/Him

Editor, Experienced Forum User, Judge, Published Author, Expert player (2070)

Joined: 8/21/2016
Posts: 1012
Location: US

Nicos wrote:

...but is it really a glitch or is a intended / left debug feature ? in the lion tamer / bear level you can clearly see the exit drawn on the screen

Fair question. In my opinion; unless we could discuss the left-side exits with a developer to confirm that they were intentional for testing purposes, we have to (at the very least) assume that any undrawn left exits were unintentional. Also, if it is an intentional/debug method, why would they not have included one for the 2nd part of Stage 1? Or why, if used a way to skip directly to bosses, wouldn't they have had the left exit of Stage 1 go directly to the Clown Boss skipping the second part entirely? To be fair and consider both sides of the coin, if we're willing to speculate that the all the left exits were debug intended, then we also have to consider the possibility that none of the left exits were intended including the drawn ones. Perhaps they were intended to be simply graphical tie-ins to previous stages. It's quite possible that it was these drawn left-side exits that prompted someone to try and leave an undrawn one in the first place. Either way, it brings up an interesting question/concept for all games: For any game, it seems to me more appropriate to consider an event like this a glitch as opposed to debug intent unless there is some sort of in-game indicator that it was debug intent--or unless a developer has (via interview or written confirmation somewhere) confirmed that the event in question was part of a debug process.

Posts for DrD2k9