I fail to see how it is possible to say that all memory corruption glitches are the same.
Because when it gets down to it you're basically saying "well this run skips the whole game", "well this one skips most of it, but some of it is still remaining".
It's just a bit redundant to have one run with total skipping and a second, coexisting run that doesn't skip "as much". The only coexisting run should be one without such skips.
Yeah, I agree, let's un-publish every any% or warped run for every game that has ACE potential or a low% run. While we're at it, let's un-publish the SM64 70 star run because it gets 70 more stars than necessary and 50 less than the whole game. Say goodbye to several Super Metroid runs since they get unnecessary items and go to areas not in the ACE run. So long, any run that strays off the absolute fastest route to get something that would heavily speed up the run. You're supposed to skip as much as possible, not just most of it.
You shouldn't even be able to take the warped route intended by the developers, entering each intended level and playing it in some way and possibly ending them early due to some form of 100% consistent and easily replicable memory corruption! Because all memory corruption is exactly the same, and there's another run that does entirely different things and crashes the game and rewrites the game code and calls the ending! That's the exact same thing as using Yoshi to eat an enemy, right? Of course it is!
Your logic is absolutely brilliant and not at all idiotic and uninformed! The future of TASvideos is upon us, and it starts on page 127 of the Super Mario World thread!
Hyperbole/10. Can't argue with (il)logic like that.
You're missing the point though. When two runs both use extensive memory corruption, it really is "well this run skips the whole game", "well this one skips most of it, but some of it is still remaining".
@Eszik: Nice linking the Mega Man run, which IS redundant amongst the other ACE one.
The falsely-titled "warp glitch" Pokemon run, though impressive, is also redundant. It uses ACE to reach the end just like the Pokemon Yellow one, it merely executes the code differently.
When the ACE run of Mega Man was submitted a lot of people, myself and Bisqwit included said Deign's run prior (which didn't use any memory corruption/ACE to skip stages) to the 12-minute one should've been the coexisting one considering there was severe redundancy between the two runs.
I fail to see how it is possible to say that all memory corruption glitches are the same.
Because when it gets down to it you're basically saying "well this run skips the whole game", "well this one skips most of it, but some of it is still remaining".
It's just a bit redundant to have one run with total skipping and a second, coexisting run that doesn't skip "as much". The only coexisting run should be one without such skips.
Again I'd like to bring up A Link to the Past. We currently have two runs. One with tremendous multidirectional glitching to beat it in about two minutes, and one that goes through the game "normally" (as in, all dungeons cleared).
If an ACE glitch was found that can be activated in the first screen of the game, should it obsolete the two-minute run? By your logic... no, because the two-minute one shows off more of the game.
When you get down to it memory corruption and ACE are one in the same - the former is only useful when it ends the game for you or allows you access to glitchy, overpowered stats or items (see: the A Link to the Past "Four Swords Palace" GBA run we have here), the latter is a result of the former and is more powerful due to better control (though that's not to say memory corruption doesn't allow for absurdly fast clears).
I believe there was/is some confusion. What is the "cloud glitch"? I thought that referred to the generation of the Orb/other glitch items.
Orb glitch is when you eat a Clappin' Chuck while having a fireflower.
Cloud glitch is when you eat a Chargin' Chuck while being small Mario.
Dyshonest wrote:
we're still talking about a run that uses memory corruption to skip the game and one that uses it to skip portions and keeping both of them published together.
Yeah, they also both use hopping glitch which makes moving faster and they both use double Yoshi glitch to make Yoshi spawn faster, so what?
I fail to see how glitches (that largely stem from games not being prepared to accept input so quickly generally) like that are comparable to memory corruption skipping parts of/all of a game.
I think it begs the question as to why both runs coexist instead of one being obsoleted.
Which 2 runs?
The 42 second one is the only one that uses this glitch that always jumps to open bus. The 10 minute run does not use this glitch. Orb glitch is a different one.
I believe there was/is some confusion. What is the "cloud glitch"? I thought that referred to the generation of the Orb/other glitch items.
Regardless, we're still talking about a run that uses memory corruption to skip the game and one that uses it to skip portions and keeping both of them published together.
The glitch always jumps to open bus. The reason why the game can continue is just because it managed to get back to the normal code again, but the fact that it executed open bus makes it not different from the ACE run.
So it, for all intentions and purposes, is ACE. It's just that the due to the way the memory corruption leading to it occurs, the ACE is short-lived and it returns to normal functions, but it is indeed running (short) arbitrary code that is of the user's choice.
I think it begs the question as to why both runs coexist instead of one being obsoleted.
I said if the glitches are the same, not if they look the same, have a similar effect or have the same setup.
Viewer appeal is what actually matters for the most part, and no one seemed to have actually agreed that they should've been separate runs as far as the Mega Man ones go.
"any% no skips"
"any% skips 3/10 stages only"
"any% skips all stages"
The middle one is inefficient - skip all or none.
Not exactly, because one skips directly to credits, not just skipping all stages. In my mind (and others), it doesn't effectively beat the game just activates the credits. Which in some sense, I argue that just activating credits is just activating credits, hardly "completing" the game at all. Which is why I think having an "any%" run makes sense, a run that completes the game as fast as possible (regardless that the same method is used to skip directly to credits). I think in this case, adding a "100%" category might be an effective solution.
Again I argue:
"100%"
"any%"
"Warps to credits"
Unless the categories overlap too much (redundancy), which with Mega Man I could see a point in removing "any%" in some sense, but I still think it makes more sense to have 3 categories here.
For SMW possibly having "any% - no ACE" might make sense because I'd call this the weird redundancy situation if we had both "warps to credits" and say, the april fools' submission for SMW.
Getting cloud itself is not ACE (at least it doesn't have to be used, or well this is what causes redundancy if it is used).
Confusing...
A run that glitch-warps to the credits (which can supposedly happen without ACE) and a run that glitch-warps stages of the game is wholly redundant.
I believe the point of dual categories when it comes to an ACE credits run and a non-ACE credits run is to see the rest of the game, not just see a little bit more.
If A Link to the Past had an ACE glitch that could be activated in the first room of the game should it be accepted with the current multidirectional glitch abusing run?
Of course there are exceptions, such as when games like Super Metroid appear and there's too many different ways to reach the ending in a bugged-up manner. How the game passed QA I'll never know, lol.
I said if the glitches are the same, not if they look the same, have a similar effect or have the same setup.
Viewer appeal is what actually matters for the most part, and no one seemed to have actually agreed that they should've been separate runs as far as the Mega Man ones go.
"any% no skips"
"any% skips 3/10 stages only"
"any% skips all stages"
The middle one is inefficient - skip all or none.
Doesn't it look a little silly to have a run that skips all stages via glitches and a run that only skips "some" via glitches?
Yes it does if the glitches are the same.
In the MM case, they are. Get tons of enemies to spawn, then I believe what has to happen is certain power-ups cause a game crash or something.
In the one that 'only" skips three stage the code executed calls for an end of the stage, not the end of the game.
But regardless. Why have two separate ones if one of them only skips less via glitchy methods instead of just not using said glitchy methods?
Memory corruption is memory corruption. Very, very rarely can ACE happen without it.
(though, for the Mega Man run the glitch was virtually the same, and for technical details they were very similar.)
Doesn't it look a little silly to have a run that skips all stages via glitches and a run that only skips "some" via glitches?
You can't get ACE with the orb glitch, is the difference.
Technical aspects don't matter that much. What matter is how the viewer perceives it
What.
Let's use my KSS submission as an example. So you say that climbing on a ladder should be banned because it looks similar to the ladder glitch?
jlun2 wrote:
MasterJun
never
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capitalize
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Comparing the KSS submission to the SMW one is rather silly. The KSS one lacks any of the unusual, erratic movement patterns that the SMW one does. Which similarly bizarre, confusing movements lead to the memory corruption that creates items like the Orb, or if it's taken a step further, out-right ACE.
Masterjun's TAS of SMW on April Fool's might've been a joke but it being rejected was the real joke now that both Mega Man runs are featured alongside each other - because we now have a precedent that two runs may use the same glitch with one of them merely being more inefficient.
Both SMW runs being there is also a bit redundant due to the current non-ACE one using memory corruption to skip a stage, but at least only one level gets skipped, whereas the Mega Man one skips about three levels, over a quarter of the game.
The current warps run already uses incredibly sketchy memory corruption to skip at least one stage. This more or less follows the problems that surrounded the recent Mega Man TAS, that it's basically a less efficient version of the "game end glitch" one.
You can't get ACE with the orb glitch, is the difference.
It is similar enough though.
Technical aspects don't matter that much. What matter is how the viewer perceives it and the process of getting the orb and the process of initiating ACE aren't very different. The only difference is ACE is faster because it skips the whole game, not just one stage.
The current warps run already uses incredibly sketchy memory corruption to skip at least one stage. This more or less follows the problems that surrounded the recent Mega Man TAS, that it's basically a less efficient version of the "game end glitch" one.
The current Mega Man "any%" TAS uses a glitch that can lead to ACE to skip three of the ten stages.
The current Mega Man "game end glitch" TAS uses the same glitch to jump to the credits.
The first one is less efficient. And the two current SMW TASes are very similar - one of them outright skips a stage due to a memory-corrupting item, and another one skips the game through similar memory-corruption.
Just making sure, because this sounds like the same problem I had awhile back, but...
http://sourceforge.net/projects/bizhawk/files/Prerequisites/bizhawk_prereqs_v1.1.zip/download
Have they installed the pre-reqs? At one point in time on Windows 7 I didn't have to install them to run BizHawk, but when I reformatted and installed Windows 8, I had issues that sounded exactly like what you're describing.
I have a rbyg snes controller, r+l does not work on that. It works on some purple button controllers and not others. I have done it many times on mine and still no apparent damage, and still just as hard to do.
that's still original hardware with the original controller... just looking a bit different. :)
So is crooked cart. To my knowledge that isn't allowed here.
I know doing U+D/L+R on a GBA (SP too, probably) will cause damage to it overtime simply because there's too much pressure and it isn't supposed to do that.
Isn't it too hard to emulate a crooked cart because entirely random memory addresses get altered, not specific ones?
On the original SNES controller (and NES I think) multidirectional input isn't possible without a modded/opened controller.
False. Many snes (and maybe other consoles) controllers can receive both left and right as input on the same frame by pressing down really hard on both sides of the d-pad. this is done without breaking or opening the controller.
Was it only certain controllers? I had a later SNES controller (one with colored R/B/Y/G buttons instead of the solid purple) and, try as I might, I couldn't do U+D. (L+R is really hard even on a GBA SP, where I find I have an "easier" time doing it. The original GBA hurts to do it on even more.)
I guess it's possible I wasn't pushing hard enough. But it worked once I opened the controller, if I recall right. Regardless, you are indeed going to damage the D-Pad irreversibly if you try it unopened too many times for too long. There's too much force going on and it's being pressed in ways it shouldn't.
Also, even if it did require opening the controller, that's still original hardware with the original controller... just looking a bit different. :)
On the original SNES controller (and NES I think) multidirectional input isn't possible without a modded/opened controller. Opening a controller is still original hardware, though.
On a GBA/SP, it's possible, but hard and hurts the fingers and thus can't be done with the precision and finesse as a TAS.
Don't several of the RPG runs here not sync on real hardware because of something to do with the game state or something?
There's Power-On, which does what's expected... hard-resets the console and starts to record. It also doesn't use any current battery saves for the game, though.
Now seems to be self-explanatory, recording from the current moment (though I can't seem to get it to play back properly unless I had a save state from the exact frame it starts to record).
There's no option to record from a reset but enable battery saves (SRAM, I guess)?
I, too, liked the mystique of a "glitched" run. You knew from the length and tags ("Heavy glitch abuse", "Corrupts memory", etc) only some of what to expect.
When I saw the first ACE ending for SMW I had no idea what to expect! I had no idea what ACE was yet, so it was really exciting to see the twist! (it ending suddenly after a bunch of seemingly random actions)
Then I saw the save corruption runs of Pokemon (though this also falls under ACE because the save corruption is what enables the ACE so quickly) and Chrono Trigger which also interested me heavily in ACE runs because of how random they are.
What would this be like for three different accepted RM1 branches?
- executes arbitrary code (current one, this thread actually!)
- Deign's run that beats all bosses and stages, but heavily uses zips and other forms of "warps" throughout stages
- A zipless run (which probably means minimal Magnet Beam usage if you don't consider the fast fall that occurs from falling off a Magnet Beam as zipping, I don't, but this should probably take input from others)
The "Select trick" can be excluded if you want for #3, but honestly it just means Yellow Devil turns into a 3-4 minute fight. Not really too entertaining there because he's pretty boring to see after two or three repetitions and I think a properly done zipless run with the Select trick would easily get Moons or something as I see a lot of entertainment potential (same with other Mega Man games for "zipless" runs).
If you resurrect Deign's run, and then get glitchless submitted, won't those 2 be more similar to each other, and the 2 current branches? We want more variety, by sticking to the 3 branches Nach was talking about we get the most of it.
How do you figure that a run that completes ten stages and beats the game is too similar to a run that doesn't even complete one but beats the game?
The run that uses the same glitch to skip three of the ten stages instead of just skipping the game period is the one that's too similar.
Also, while the run was praised when it was released I'm sure (and no one is saying the 12-minute one is boring, but read on)... where is all this professed love and admiration that would prevent it from getting obsoleted? I'm not the only one who has said it should've been/should be obsoleted by this ACE run, adelikat above and Bisqwit have both suggested the same thing.
In fact the only people who said not to obsolete it were before anyone suggested Deign's run to be the listed one alongside the ACE one.
I see it was renamed to "game end glitch" on the front page at least, which is far more appropriate (and actually correct), however there's still the issue of it obsoleting the other existing run...
http://tasvideos.org/1686M.html
It skips three stages (Bomb Man, Wily Stage 2, and the last half (including the most important part... the boss) of Wily Stage 1) via a glitch that, to the viewer, is the same as the one that triggers the ACE in this run.
Supposedly the technical details are different (though I doubt they differ by much considering they appear to be caused by the same exact things), but to the viewer they sure look the same.
Regardless, it seems like the "stage skipping glitch" does lead to the ACE run see here if it's pulled off slightly differently, or something.
(what are the differences? It just looks like they're both caused by massive lag and probably luck with what items drop after the enemies die.)
In which case... it uses the same glitch but less efficiently as it only calls for the end of stages, not the game itself.
http://tasvideos.org/1103M.html I think this is the more appropriate "companion" run seeing as how it actually completes all the stages. A run that doesn't complete all stages (like the current 12-minute run) should be obsoleted by any run that reaches the game the fastest regardless of stages completed - hence any%.
EDIT:
Just saw the edits to the submission page by Nach...
I deem the following branches viable:
All levels completed using every technique available (the currently published run).
Skips three levels, though.
All levels completed without using the magnet beam, which incidentally is responsible for most of the glitches seen in the above branch, and is also deemed impossible by the creators.
As already mentioned, low% is actually an inaccurate rating. It is only relevant to list low% if it's a slower-than-normal method to beat the game, for instance, low% runs of Super Metroid or Mega Man X2.
I still think "glitched" is more descriptive than warp glitch, which doesn't even apply to the ALttP one. Though I guess this may just be my own personal disagreement that an out-of-bounds glitch like the ones leading to ALttP finishes don't necessarily qualify as warping.
My previous post was mostly hyperbole but the point(s) it makes still stand.