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FractalFusion wrote:
Watched it just now. The TAS looks pretty good (I'm not familiar with ZX unfortunately) but the cutscenes are long. Models exist in this game essentially so you can cosplay as Mega Man characters? That's my guess. Looks cool anyway.
Also, nice "Movie finished playing." at 1:08:08. (I don't think DeSmuME AVI recording is supposed to put that there, but what do I know.)
Yeah the cutscenes are a shame, can be skipped but only with a save file. The models are X, Zero and the four guardians from the Zero series. Glad you enjoyed it
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hellagels wrote:
Nice improvement. Yes vote.
Is it possible to open the door by standing on the platform that Lx' charge attack creates in the elevator sections of final stage, rather than waiting the elevators?
I attempted it, did not seem possible but I can triple check this afternoon.
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FractalFusion wrote:
Hetfield90 wrote:
minus the lack of a hot spring scene.
Nah, I don't really care about bath scenes. :P
By the way Flameberger, what is your next TAS project?
Megaman ZX, sometime this year I expect.
As for the entertainment quality of this TAS, I think it's in a weird place. Personally I find it really neat but mostly from a routing perspective, something that's not as visible to people who aren't as familiar with the game and the speedrunning thereof as I am. I think there's a lot here for people who are familiar enough with Riviera to be interested by the strats and preperation that went in to it, as well as for people who are charmed by the game itself (soundtrack, art, voice are all really good.) Mass appeal is a bit less than more action-packed movies obviously.
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Nach wrote:
Flameberger wrote:
It's not my hypothetical situation
The case of "release a lot hoping that maybe nobody notices that one encode" is a hypothetical. Maybe it can happen, maybe not. AFAIK, it's never been successfully tested on our channel.
Flameberger wrote:
"It's not a severe issue"
What actually happened, ~850 people possibly leaving forever due to what certain encoders did is a severe issue.
Insisting we should worry about a hypothetical, "makes it sound like", from your perspective, that ~850 people possibly permanently leaving "it's accepted but is something we just don't care about".
Alright now I'm lost. The only thing I've been trying to say is that your assigned
severity of 1/10 to the scenario of a publisher sabotaging a submission is too low of a value. I'm saying it's a more serious issue than that.
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Nach wrote:
Flameberger wrote:
Nach wrote:
Warp wrote:
Nach wrote:
Warp wrote:
Now we're being told that what some encoders/publishers really wanted was to release a lot hoping that maybe nobody notices that one encode. The same encode which appeared on the main site, RSS feeds, search features here, Google, YT and elsewhere, on unwatched lists, all without any sort of tampering. If that's actually what happened, on a scale of 1-10, I'd rate it a 1.
I think the idea that a publisher would intentionally try to sabotage a submission would rank worse than a 1 / 10. Even if the actual damage was minimal the issue here is whether or not there was malicious intent.
The actual damage that occurred in reality was not minimal. Possibly permanently losing ~850 users if not more?
Regarding your hypothetical situation, I'm not convinced it's even possible to sabotage a submission in that fashion. If we want to start worrying about imaginary offences, put down that voodoo doll you made, and stop putting pins in it.
It's not my hypothetical situation, I haven't accused anyone of anything. I just think that "It's not a severe issue" is not the correct response to claims of "a publisher sabotaged a submission." That makes it sound like it's accepted but is something we just don't care about.
If you think it's a false accusation just say that from the start.
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Nach wrote:
Warp wrote:
Nach wrote:
Warp wrote:
Now we're being told that what some encoders/publishers really wanted was to release a lot hoping that maybe nobody notices that one encode. The same encode which appeared on the main site, RSS feeds, search features here, Google, YT and elsewhere, on unwatched lists, all without any sort of tampering. If that's actually what happened, on a scale of 1-10, I'd rate it a 1.
I think the idea that a publisher would intentionally try to sabotage a submission would rank worse than a 1 / 10. Even if the actual damage was minimal the issue here is whether or not there was malicious intent.
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FractalFusion wrote:
Nice work, Flameberger! I wasn't sure at first how far you were into your project, but it looks like you got it completed pretty quickly. You did manage to kill the gnome in two hits; I wonder how hard it was to get the RNG required for that to happen. Also I noticed you manipulated a lot of triple rapier misses; doesn't seem easy to do, but you killed the gnome in two hits so anything is possible, really.
I got unreasonably lucky on the 2-hit gnome kill, iirc I only sacrificed like 10-20 frames manipulating for it, expected it to be way worse (Note this doesn't mean I only tried around 15 rng values for the result, I can affect the way the rng changes over time in a bunch of different ways while I pass the time.) Triple Rapier misses were definitely nasty as well as well as a variety of other things including the entire Boulder Dragon fight, the Barbarian King bird's Beak Barrage double miss, Fia taking three hits from the Sage's Swing Around (the issue with this one is that I need it to not only target Fia but to actually hit her as well, which happens only a bit over 50% of the time.) Probably a bunch of other fights too that I'm not recalling.
FractalFusion wrote:
- (50:06) Against Accursed (invincible Isher), I noticed you have Lina use Hourglass four times. I think it should be possible to have Serene use Hourglass three times instead, if you have everyone use Hell Scythe on the first round (that should make Lina's WT high enough), and you manipulate the WT at the beginning.
- (1:29:38) In Chapter 4 where you have to dodge the arrows, I think it is faster to fail this one.
- (2:15:57) I forgot to mention before, but it seems the VBA-Next core has a problem with rendering LV3 Disaresta, such that it lags heavily. I don't think that is even supposed to be the proper emulation. The old VBA emulator as well as the mGBA core don't seem to have this problem. The previous TAS also had that happen as well whenever LV3 Disaresta was used.
- (2:25:41) I think it is slightly faster to let Ein take the trap hit instead of Lina (unless you weren't able to manipulate it in time).
Heck.
Yeah getting hit by the archers is 116 frames faster. One less hourglass use would be a few seconds, and Ein taking the poison trap is 13 frames. Time to remake the TAS again boys. (I jest.)
FractalFusion wrote:
- (2:39:19) Did you consider the Slime Ball strat to poison Malice? Or did it not work out?
Originally I didn't think it would work out because of inventory space limitations, reconsidering now though I realize I could replace the Zantetsu, though I would rather have both. There would be a lot of issues to resolve in terms of how many turns to let Malice get, how to generate the OVD I need for No Mercy as well as how to get to low HP for it, I think it would probably be fast though.
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ThunderAxe31 wrote:
Flameberger wrote:
EZGames69 wrote:
Not that it should matter that much, but is there any reason why you didnt include the GBA bios?
Is that something I'm supposed to list in the submission? I'm not sure I understand the question.
No, it's an emulator setting. Open BizHawk, open a GBA ROM, then in the BizHawk menu click on GBA > Settings...
In the tab "Sync Settings" you will find "Skip BIOS" at the beginning. It is preferred to have it set to "False".
Also, I see you used VBA-Next as emulation core for this movie. The preferred core is instead mGBA. You can set it on GBA > Core.
In any case, none of these settings are required for making a movie acceptable. But please, next time remember to have these settings before starting a new TAS. Also consider using the latest BizHawk version, 2.3.1 (for 64-bit computers) or 1.13.2 (for 32-bit computers).
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Got it, thanks.
To clarify, this isn't because of any change in plans with regards to remaking the TAS. It was just suggested that with how long the remake will take it'd be better to cancel and resubmit when it's done.
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EZGames69 wrote:
Any update on how the improvements are going?
Progress has slowed compared to version 1 cause I'm busier at work and also aiming for higher levels of optimization this time around. My improved understandings of how the RNG can be manipulated are a blessing and a curse. So far I've made it through Chapter 1 with significant improvements. Pace might pick up if I find more time for it, but either way it will be awhile before v2 is ready.
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Running into a bit of a problem on the Boulder Dragon strats. Something I've observed before but never studied in detail is that sometimes when an enemy uses a Rage skill the Rage meter depletes some amount, separate from the regular decay that happens between turns.
With the old Boulder Dragon (3x Rage), this effect was happening after each of his turns, reducing the meter by 4, 8 and then 12. In the new strats (1x Normal -> 2x Rage) this effect is not occurring for me at all on the first Saberfang, and then the meter ends up being maxed before his third turn.
Technically with near perfect rolls I can pull it off by having Ledah miss twice, it's gonna make the manipulation a nightmare though and it probably won't be realistic for me to dodge the Saberfangs.
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FractalFusion wrote:
I had a look at the code that generates random numbers to see why it was very difficult to manipulate initial waits other than shifting up or down.
The game generates an additional random initial wait delay from 0 to 9 for all party characters you could possibly have in the game (regardless of whether you have them or not) and 6 enemies you face in battle (not that there are ever that many). These 12 values are generated as:
((RNG+VCOUNT+SIMPLECOUNTER) mod 128 ) mod 10
where
(first is system bus, second is IWRAM)
RNG address = 30034E4 (34E4)
VCOUNT address = 3004FD4 (4FD4)
SIMPLECOUNTER address = 3001FD0 (1FD0)
However, there is a catch. RNG updates itself each time it is called (and only when called), whereas VCOUNT and SIMPLECOUNTER do not change during the calculation of these 12 values.
Since RNG only updates itself when called and VCOUNT and SIMPLECOUNTER don't change in the middle of calculation, the result is that it is difficult to manipulate initial waits for turn order unless you change RNG itself (which not a lot of actions do). Delaying for different VCOUNT and SIMPLECOUNTER only move initial waits up or down, although some values can be made to be off by two (because of the double mod in the formula).
As an aside, RNG updates as:
RNG = swap(RNG*41 mod 65536)
where
swap(n) = (n mod 256)*256 + floor(n/256).
Judging from Flameberger's posts and Google doc, I'm sure he knew most of this stuff already, but I wanted to put this down just in case it is useful to anyone in the future.
That's pretty neat. I have run into the off by 2s and wasn't really sure what was going on there.
One thing I've found I can often do even with these limitations is adjust the turn order by over or underflowing a unit's wait time. So if Ein starts at 16, the fastest he can get, I can roll him over to 25, putting him behind the other units (unless they also roll over.)
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FractalFusion wrote:
Sorry for the delay; I was very busy in real life.
I uploaded some of my test TASes here:
http://www.mediafire.com/file/1pxh71ja10cna94/riviera.zip
The U TASes use VBA v22 and the J TASes use VBA-rr-svn480.
The U TASes (the ones I could find) are pretty awful but maybe there are some strats there that could help. I don't know. The J TASes are a little better done but still a lot of improvement there (note that the J TASes use J glitches so they start to diverge after the Aghart fight where I first use the stat glitch).
By the way, two other things:
- Against Boulder Dragon (Red Dragon in Chapter 1), it is possible to have Red Dragon use 1x Normal skill (Bite) and 2x Rage skill (Saberfang) and still have everything else play out the same. You just need Ein to start with a much lower initial wait than Red Dragon (maybe 10 or 11 lower or more). I think it saves 1-2 seconds.
- I remember that getting a Game Over in battle allows you to retry with the enemy at less health (first time 75%, second time 50%, iirc). Have you ever considered using it as part of your strats?
Cool, I'll take a look at those. Luckily I'm not too far past the Boulder Dragon on the remake, Soul Hunters held me up for awhile.
Game Over to lower enemy health is something I would only do as a last resort, like if I just couldn't win a battle with how underleveled my team is. Thankfully it didn't come to that. Hector is the only fight I would really consider it, with his high HP, but even then it would only bring him down 2750, a bit more than a single No Mercy.
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FractalFusion wrote:
Flameberger, if you want, you can cancel this submission. (Though I think this submission would probably be accepted even if you had no intention of improving it.)
If you like, I can upload some of my older files. It will take a while to find them, because I did them a very long time ago during the VBA days.
Yeah that would be neat.
ruadath wrote:
Flameberger, I would recommend leaving it on the workbench and just asking for the submission to be set to delayed.
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In light of these potential optimizations I've decided to remake the TAS. idk if we want to take this submission down or what, but I'll be back in a month or two with a couple minutes improvement.
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FractalFusion wrote:
I only noticed this after looking over your TAS again, but in 6-4, it is faster to fail the minigame for the jump(the one right after getting Leyte Claw); it takes you directly to 6-5.
I like the strat you have for 5-4; didn't think about using LXA Ankhs by going to the red Crystal Sanctuary twice. How much faster is it than using LTA Ankhs (which is the intended route)?
Heck.
Don't have a measured time that LXA saves, I just figured it's definitely faster with all the walking around and two zone transitions being skipped.
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Yo nice, I wasn't expecting many people to be familiar with the game, much less someone else with experience TASing it.
FractalFusion wrote:
* It is a pain to manipulate initial waits (turn order and stuff), but it is possible. I think it is easier if you delay frames from some time back. Still not sure how it works.
Yeah I did do a ton of initial wait time manipulation by delaying for frames or doing some other things (scrolling up and down through item select in the previous battle, switching between "Fight" and "Run", etc. I just couldn't get the more limited vcount manipulations to gainfully change the turn orders.
FractalFusion wrote:
* Against Aghart, I think it is faster to let Ein die after the first Flare Tempest, so that Ledah uses a Divide in place of Ein using Double Slash twice (and Aghart doesn't use Flare Tempest again). Not sure of the timing.
I was under the impression I wouldn't do enough damage (2x double slash after the power wrist runs out is around 45 more than a divide,) looking at it more closely though I see it would be possible with really good rolls.
FractalFusion wrote:
* I think Slumber Ivy works just as well instead of Spider Web on the Black Wyrm in Jet Black Wind (although you'd have to play around with wait times). If you use Slumber Ivy, then you don't need to do the event to get Spider Web and you can skip one Rock event. The events cost about 34 seconds.
That's a really good catch, I had no idea the black wyrm was vulnerable to Sleep.
FractalFusion wrote:
* I typically use Fia->Longbow->(Lv2)Cleave Arrow rather than Lina->Longbow->(Lv3)Arrow Rain as the finisher for Black Wyrm because it doesn't take as long to level for a Lv2 skill compared to Lv3. Don't know how this changes the rest of the TAS though if Lina needs to be levelled.
Lina definitely needs the +6 STR to beat Lindwurm with the current strats. Saving time with Fia's faster overskill animation might be viable but I would need to make up for the lost Rapier EXP somewhere.
FractalFusion wrote:
* Spiked Hammer may be useful somewhere (low-accuracy attack that does 75% current HP damage when used by Lina and 50% otherwise). Obviously not in a RTA because of its extremely low accuracy.
* Perhaps the Tarot is useful somewhere (it's an HP% attack and with the right luck it does massive damage to everyone at once when used by Serene, IIRC), even though I never ended up using it. However, it costs a lot of time to get, before you gain access to Wyvern Wings which are so much better.
These would both be for non-boss battles only because %HP based damage is invalid against bosses. I did initially think the Spiked Hammer would be nice but it turns out I don't really fight non-boss enemies except when I'm farming EXP from them. I can't think of cases off the top of my head where I would really benefit from killing such an enemy faster than I do. Not that I would dismiss the idea entirely, but that's how it seemed to work out for me.
FractalFusion wrote:
* Hourglass is useful against Isher's first (invincible) phase; have everyone throw a Scythe or something on the first round of attacks then have the next character to act use Hourglass over and over. This cuts down on the number of moves your party needs to make.
That's a neat idea. I wonder how the timing would compare between getting less turns vs getting less Inventory-is-full screens.
FractalFusion wrote:
* I think it is faster to get poison gas (or arrow trap?) on a trapped chest and fail it. IIRC the HP penalty can be assessed to anyone in your party and isn't even permanent.
Interesting, I should have timed that.
FractalFusion wrote:
* In Chapters 4 and 5, you have unlimited access to Wyvern Wings (because you can get them from Wyvern-type enemies in the two practice mode battles Air Riders and White Plateau Wyvern, respectively). Maybe it would be better to go out of the way to farm Wyvern Wings? Don't know how many is necessary using this general route.
Hadn't considered that but the same rationale applies as with the powerful %HP items. Any non-boss enemy that's removed would mean having to make up EXP elsewhere. I would be able to save some bats and then maybe move those to boss battles, but I don't imagine it would be worth the time spent in practice battles.
FractalFusion wrote:
* Maybe the Killer Beehive has some use? It does 88x8 fixed damage if you get it to hit the enemy.
Probably. That was an oversight on my part.
FractalFusion wrote:
* ...Slime Ball to poison Malice while surviving with Serene using Ice Emblem (Malice is the only late-game boss which is not immune to poison; a poisoned combatant takes 15% max hp damage every time its turn comes up).
That's crazy that she's vulnerable to poison, didn't know that. Would potentially be a lot of damage, though I don't actually have spare inventory space at that point in the run. I think that's the only point in the route where I need all 15 of the items I'm holding, interestingly enough. So I would need to adjust other stuff to make slime ball strats possible.
Thanks for the feedback.
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ruadath wrote:
Awesome! I've been waiting for this for a long time! Can't wait to watch when I get home!
One thing I must ask, however: is there a reason you didn't use the japanese version? Not only would you save plenty of on dialogue, but you would also benefit from the the stat glitch (as far as I am aware) would not change the game dramatically enough to warrant a separate branch.
EDIT: Pre-emptive yes vote from me
Personally I think the effects of the stat glitch on the Japanese version would be a significant enough difference to be a seperate category / branch. The route would be dramatically altered. I do think it would be very interesting as well but I opted to stick to the version I know best.
For those not in the know: the Japanese version of the game has what I call the Permanent Buff Glitch, if a character dies in combat while benefiting from certain buffs (including most notably plus strength), they will keep the effects of that buff as a permanent increase to their stats. A run on that version, especially a TAS, would use the glitch to get huge amounts of strength very early in the game.
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Masterjun wrote:
It works fine on my version of DeSmuME 0.9.9 x86.
Maybe you somehow got yourself a bad lua51.dll, maybe a 64-bit version when you should have a 32-bit version or something.
Yep, that was it. replaced my dll and it works now. Thanks.
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idk if I'm being dumb or what but when my lua script tries to read the current frame count I get absurdly large numbers.
my code is simply: print(emu.framecount())
the output is: 1.62596199993e+018
Closing and restarting the emulator will cause me to get a different absurd number as the output. Results are unaffected by whether or not I'm playing a movie, what ROM I'm using, and the frame count itself.
I'm on 9.9 x86.
