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HappyLee wrote:
Here's a new argument, a relevant example that's maybe worth thinking and discussing about.
What if (hypothetically) Super Mario World is made this way, that every road on the map is already unlocked when you first enter the game, and you're allowed to walk everywhere or start at any level on the map?
Now this is funny. This actually (kinda) exists, as the Arcade variant of SMW. XD
To be honest, I actually wouldn't mind seeing the "all exits" category being done on this version with a starting point other than the first one, as long as it still does complete all exits in the game. However, it would feel a weird to call an any% movie done on this version with a different starting point that somehow ends up being faster the any% of SMW, but even then a movie like that might actually have more of a reason to be published as a separate branch if it features a completely different set of levels being played while this movie simply jumps to a later point in a set of levels without any branches.
Also, to give this movie some benefit of doubt:
No power-up is taken.
This movie is different from the W8 portion of the published one in the sense that Mario stays Small while he is in the Fire state in the latter, but this doesn't seem to make too much of a difference for this game, unfortunately.
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HappyLee wrote:
The example includes a in-game cheat code, and even the wiki page calls it a "level select cheat". Our movie rules are clear about in-game cheat codes.
They don't, actually. They appear by default on some versions of the game.
It appears normally in both Japanese versions, and the European Konami GB Collection; many very early Konami Game Boy games (such as this game, Nemesis, and TMNT: Fall of the Foot Clan) featured a level select by default with some sort of punishment for playing the game to completion by starting on a later level, possibly owing to low battery life.
Do you consider the first three levels of Operation C to be optional in this case?
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HappyLee wrote:
This is a serious statement, and also a very important issue to me. I'd admit I haven't played many games before. Can you show me 2 or 3 examples in which a level select system (no password allowed) could obsolete an any% run (providing it's a real any% run that's intended to be the fastest completion of the game)?
Might be a late to this, but Japanese and GBC versions ofOperation C (and a number of other Konami games on GB around the same time) allow the player to start from a later level by default without any cheat code or password.
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HappyLee wrote:
I'm not sure what the actual goal is. If the goal is "completing a game that looks like Super Mario Bros. in the fastest time", then what if someone else makes a even faster version "Hyperfast Mario Bros." one day? Technically I think if someone improves the code further, it can make Mario move faster and further reduce lags and waiting time. Will that obsolete this run?
I wonder how a TAS of that bootleg hack from that multicart whose rom can be relatively easily found that I posted earlier would look like. If the result is somewhat similar, I wonder if that can be considered a case of notable/commonly seen bootleg hack like Street Fighter II': Champion Edition, which didn't even need an ips patch included in the package of all accepted hacks on the site from a while back.
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SmashManiac wrote:
Isn't this Soace Invaders: The Arcade Game the same game as SNES Space Invaders: The Original Game, but rebranded and without the VS mode?
Yeah. That's covered in the video linked in the submission.
I suppose cross-obsoletions are acceptable in this case for sure, although I definitely wouldn't mind for this submission to stay as it is for technical demo purposes. :P
Edit: Apparently SI: The Original Game is also released on CD-ROM: http://www.pcengine.co.uk/HTML_Games/Space_Invaders_Original.htm
Not sure how different it is from the SNES versions.
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feos wrote:
What are examples when it's clear, and what makes it clear?
This is the first to come to my mind. :P
Link to video
As for why, I would go with the definition of gameplay (or rather, lack thereof) that you posted.
A slightly less "straightforward" example would be Mario Paint, but I guess it feels that way only because it's Mario themed.
And I wouldn't consider this a game if not for the hidden Easter Eggs, yeah: #7394: Fortranm's DS Kanji Sonomama - DS Rakubiki Jiten "BALL" in 18:39.86
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I think all officially licensed software releases on commercial video game consoles should be allowed by default unless the software in question is clearly utility in nature (aka not really a game), as the list of games is ultimately finite and well defined in this sense.
Things are probably more complicated for PC games since there is not a clear distinction between official/commercial releases and those that aren't, or is there?
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feos wrote:
Fortranm wrote:
That being said, if ending sequence disruption is permitted for games where the ending doesn't even update the save file, shall [2725] SNES Final Fantasy VI by keylie & KadMony in 3:11:39.46 be moved to be branchless with the current branchless movie rebranched to be "glitchless" or something similar if applicable?
This is assuming the ending sequence of FF6 on SNES isn't meant to have effects. I don't know enough about this game to tell if that's the case.
To me it seems like that movie really is glitchless based on the description, but does that fall under the Standard "No Major Skips" category when there are already acceptable any% and this "sketch glitch" movie? If not then un-obsoleting the "sketch glitch" movie and making it obsolete [549] SNES Final Fantasy VI by erokky in 4:05:52.87 seem like a good move especially when the latter is slower than even [1555] SNES Final Fantasy V & VI by neo_omegon in 3:52:15.97.
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"All awards" or Album% might be the easiest way to define a completionist goal for this game, although it might also make sense to one up it by adding "all levels" to the goal so that it includes the Boo levels and all Lost Levels without warping too, maybe even doing the full second loop of SMB instead of doing the first loop for that.
A credit sequence is played after Lost Levels is beaten, so a run that starts from a clean SRAM, unlocks Lost Level ASAP, and then beats it can be seen as an "actual" any% run of this game that aims to reach its sole credit sequence.
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Reya wrote:
3. No, it's not different. It's the same technique used in CW.
What's special about this specific application that it's not used for anything else in the run?
Reya wrote:
6. This doesn't work for a big reason. Grabbing the letter sets an irreversible sequence to right before entering Doopliss' name and doesn't set the flag that gets rid of our partners, meaning we can't save and reload to get rid of our partner right before fighting Doopliss 2 which is an issue because if we have any partner out except Vivian then the game will softlock, preventing further progress.
What if you only unlock the door from the room with the letter and proceed to free the Boos on the right and fight Doopliss for the first time so that you can return to the room with the letter from the right side later instead? Does unlocking that door early ultimately cause the same softlock?
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Wonderful to see a TAS with this goal at last. Easy Yes vote.
Some questions:
1. Why is the Fence Skip (used since #6509: Malleoz's GC Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door in 2:00:58.23) not done?
2. Why is the US/PAL version not used for Goomba Trio Skip (used in #6802: Malleoz's GC Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door in 1:47:09.03)?
3. I remember watching a video about the glitch used to break a lock in Ch.2 and how it can be used to perform credit warp a while ago. Is the specific application of the glitch in this movie different from the type that can be used to do credit warp?
4. Why is Clip Blimp Ticket Skip not done? Is it actually faster to do things in the intended way up to the start of Ch.3 if the second Crystal Star is acquired?
5, Would it be possibly faster to use Jump Storage in the mansion main hall in Ch.4 to get the key and then to the saving point instead of freeing the Boos?
6. What if you break into the room with the letter and the key before fighting Doopliss for the first time, so that you can open the box with the Boos along the way as well? Or does that set the story progression irreversibly to a later point?
7. What is the reason that you traversed to a certain room in Ch.5 before entering the boss place from the back?
8. In the room at the 2:33:45 mark, would it be possibly faster to some get Jump Storage use it?
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Not being reproducible on an emulator doesn't sound like an issue IMO if there is a input file of some sort that can be used for playing back on a console, but I guess this is a moot point if there won't be an input file of any sort for this submission for other reasons.
Noxxa wrote:
That's trying to force a square peg into a round hole.
This is exactly what I'm thinking when I see the notion of this being "published", assuming it refers to the last step of the established Submission -> Judgement -> Publication workflow. Why make it an end goal to fit it into this workflow that starts with Submission when it is guaranteed to lack the core component of it?
I definitely agree it's a good idea to feature presentations like this in some form on site, but it's probably better to not use this workflow for it altogether. IMO the best solution might be to have a wiki page (with subpages if necessary) that documents TAS presentations at major events with a tab at the top navigation bar of the site that leads to it. Probably would make sense to limit the editing privileges to involved members for each subpage if each presentation ends up getting one.
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Glad to see a run of this game submitted. Yes vote for entertainment.
https://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/76571532676876639
Did you confirm that the 5th stage in this movie is done equally fast or faster compared to the one in this input file?
Also, there are visibly more preplaced enemies in the 2nd loop. Do you plan to include it in the movie file as well given this?
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Radiant wrote:
We might (?) want to have a "one game per platfrom rule", meaning that (e.g.) any Chess run on Windows can obsolete any other Chess run on Windows, even if it's a different chess by a different publisher. I'm not saying this is necessary, but it alleviates the "thousands of variants" issue.
This reminds me of the one case where the second game in the Puyo Puyo series was made to obsolete the first one because they have near identical game play, a decision that was undone earlier this year.
One thing I found funny is that despite the arguments over this topic, the site seems to not mind about having all these variations or clones of a certain Soviet puzzle game Tetris over years. :P
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feos wrote:
I didn't intend that implication and I don't agree with it.
I guess I thought that's the implication because of the phrase "other hacks". As it stands, hacks are only accepted as separate games and not as substitutes of official releases (outside of edge cases like the game being broken and can't be completed etc), right?
feos wrote:
I treat translations the same as speed-entertainment trade-offs, which are never a different branch if that's the only difference.
I agree, but I believe the main point of contention on this topic has always been about official vs unofficial releases and legitimacy.
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feos wrote:
For example, which issues will we face if we allow fan translations on the same principles as other hacks (should not be bad and overly obscure), and outside of Standard?
I suppose this implies that fanTL would never be used to replace/obsolete movies done on official releases, which I think should definitely be the case.
And then we run into a paradox.
feos wrote:
For example, which issues will we face if we allow fan translations on the same principles as other hacks (should not be bad and overly obscure), and outside of Standard? IMO it also makes sense to apply our usual requirement of no audiovisual or gameplay affecting glitches.
This sounds intuitive for all intents and purposes, on first sight. However, if they have completely identical gameplay, doesn't that mean we are allowing movies with identical gameplay to be published alongside each other? If we don't do this for official releases in different languages, why would we do it for non-official translations of all things?
Let's turn this around. If we are treating them as hacks, let's stick with the "no cosmetic hacks" rule, and allow fanTL that DOES have noticeable gameplay differences, intended or not, instead. Maybe a Moon requirement can still be reasonable?
Or, if we actually are talking about using fanTL with identical gameplay for Moon branches of official games, the maximum that I personally consider reasonable is to accept a Moon branch movie done on said fanTLs only if there is no existing movie of the same category done on official releases and allow the latter to obsolete the former later.
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It seems I just found... something.
Link to video
Fighting the Ocean Palace Lavos after the Ocean Palace incident:
1. do NOT trigger the 1999 Lavos cutscene in any way
2. set up the double Epoch glitch
3. after Black Omen shows up, enter the Epoch hanger BEFORE talking to Gaspar about Time Egg
4. get on Epoch and immediately get off; this will revert Epoch to the wingless state
5. take the now wingless Epoch to 1999; when Lavos is seen, WAIT, and a battle against the OP Lavos will start; the game will proceed to the scene that asks you if you want to fight or escape regardless of the result of the battle
6. now, trying to trigger the Lavos fight via either the End of Time or Epoch will just result in soft lock, so we can't really call it a "real" all bosses route yet unless we verify that the Black Omen boss rush in the end can proceed without issue
7. we can get winged Epoch back and get out of the double Epoch situation by simply using Epoch from the hanger BEFORE talking to Gaspar; it's still possible to fix it after that but it would be more tricky and I don't think there is a benefit in doing that
Technical explanation:
1. All Lavos (shell) fights take place in the same room in the game with the flag at 7F00CE holding a value that helps determine how that room behaves. These values are not actively being reset after they are set up
2. This generally does not cause issues because all warps to the Lavos battle room are preceded with a value being set to the flag - all except one, the scenario where Lavos is seen during the 1999 cutscene if the initial visit is done via wingless Epoch; this isn't really an oversight in of itself because there isn't any value of the flag that would cause oddity for this during the short duration where wingless Epoch is available anyway, unless...
3. There is a way to get wingless Epoch back after the Ocean Palace incident! Epoch has a status value stored at 000294. There are 4 events in the game that would forcibly set it to a certain value: I. D3 (the wingless era selection screen status) when Epoch takes off from the hanger with a value (7F00BA & 0x80) associated with wings is not set (the value is set irreversibly at the end of the Black Bird incident); II. F3 (the winged era selection screen status) when Epoch takes off from the hanger when the aforementioned value associated with wings is set (this isn't really supposed to happen for obvious reasons, but we are using this scenario here because of the double Epoches glitch); III. 80 (the wingless "idle" state) if the player gets off Epoch from the hanger; IV. A0 (the winged "idle" state) when the player first gets winged Epoch in 12KBC. With the double Epoches glitch, it becomes possible to enter the hanger even after winged Epoch is acquired, which allows us to have wingless Epoch after the Ocean Palace incident
4. Combining these 2 factors, we can now use wingless Epoch to trigger the 1999 cutscene with the Lavos room "status" still being set to the value for the Ocean Palace battle (3), which results in the OP Lavos being spawned when the room is shown and starts a battle if the room stays long enough
To be honest, I actually wouldn't mind seeing the "all exits" category being done on this version with a starting point other than the first one, as long as it still does complete all exits in the game. However, it would feel a weird to call an any% movie done on this version with a different starting point that somehow ends up being faster the any% of SMW, but even then a movie like that might actually have more of a reason to be published as a separate branch if it features a completely different set of levels being played while this movie simply jumps to a later point in a set of levels without any branches.
Also, to give this movie some benefit of doubt: