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Flash in Dolphin sounds like a fever dream!
I found this btw - https://gbatemp.net/threads/how-to-make-flash-game-wad-injects.561406/
Maybe it's possible to be make a tool for packing flash games into custom Wii roms, so that it will be standard. The only issue is that keymapping would be slightly different for each game.
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Nach wrote:
without skipping the first three levels using the SHIFT+L cheat code
By the way, this isn't a cheat code per se. It appear in the manual as a command to assist the player is practicing the game. The code allows you to jump to any of those levels to immediately practice them, but also lowers the time limit to make it supposedly impossible to beat the game.
To actually cheat in the game and skip levels, you can pass the command line parameter megahit, followed by the level number.
In general, there's also keyboard shortcuts to save and load your progress.
Yeah, but doing a level skip/practice mode run is not exactly the cleanest thing either. It's definitely cleaner than using megahit that's for sure.
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Hmmm. Maybe it is possible to make a modified version of Android that can sort of natively support TASing? Considering that it is sort of based on Linux and is open source, maybe something similar to libTAS can be developed for it? That would not only solve this but open doorway to TAS countless android games as well! But perhaps thats a topic for another thread...
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I am nowhere near knowledgeable about these stuff, but seems like this is an open source emulator? https://github.com/nikita36078/J2ME-Loader
One disadvantage is that it seems to be for Android only, but it is by far the most bug free emulator atleast for the games I tested.
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Radiant wrote:
Conversely, this run avoids jumping past guards, which arguably is not a glitch, based on how hesitant the guard AI is overall. Also, the top post mentions "fall damage crouch cancel" which we haven't discussed; I'm not sure whether it's relevant.
I say "might" and "arguably" because we're still discussing it and of course it's ultimately not my opinion that counts.
No way guard jumping is not a glitch haha, fall damage crouch cancel and inactive chomper are arguable.
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Nach wrote:
GMP wrote:
- Avoiding damage from a falling tile by ducking. I agree, that this doesnt belong if a run to be made under the "glitchless" branch.
I recall seeing this in a manual for one of the ports. The explanation was that if the tile hits you in the head it hurts, but not if you're ducking for cover. So it seems intentional you're supposed to not be damaged when ducking.
Interesting, I actually didn't know that. I guess that is the history behind it being allowed for RTA NMG runs as well.
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Radiant wrote:
Thank you for that post, I think it's great to have discussion on what is or isn't a glitch, instead of reusing RTA's definition.
GMP wrote:
Swapping sides from guards and turning away from guards in mid-combat. Here is a section of the manual which mentions it - https://i.imgur.com/zk9CPfk.png
"Guard AI is pretty dumb"; sure, I can buy that this is not a glitch, but I'd like to check how much luck manip it requires.
"Walking on air". As I already mentioned, this is a standard mechanic in the series.
I believe this became a standard mechanic in the series because it was a glitch in the first game. From the level design (e.g. of level 12), the intent is that a running far jump requires a three-tile platform, and it is unintended that you can do it on a two-tile platform (by running in the other direction and "walk on air" to turn around for a running start). Several ports of POP1 don't allow this trick (e.g. [4158] NES Prince of Persia by Challenger in 16:16.06, [1193] Genesis Prince of Persia by Aqfaq in 19:03.48, [3523] PCECD Prince of Persia by Challenger in 05:14.31); therefore I believe this is not a standard mechanic in the first game.
"when you are off guard, a single sword blow can kill you", this exact same mechanic applies to enemies as well.
In your video around 14:10, attempting to attack someone "off guard" doesn't one-shot him. Even if that were an intentional mechanic, that you run up to Jafar from half a screen away, from his front? That should clearly "activate" him, and it's a glitch that it doesn't.
Fair points for the last two. Regarding the first one, yeah it's really simple. I am willing to bet you can do it in your copy of the game pretty easily right now.
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feos wrote:
Do you have to perform anything specific to walk on air aside form... just keep walking? And how long does it last at max?
Assuming by "walking in air", the turn around is what is mentioned, it's simply just about holding the opposite direction as current running direction at the right moment. It lasts for about a second, basically till the turnaround animation is completed.
Edit: Timestamp of what I am referring to - https://youtu.be/qEUwTODtHLk?t=490
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Ok, that was a very well-put post, and gave a lot of insight. Seeing that this run has many problems, I might consider doing a new one in its place. But before that I would like to get some feedback in the form of a list of things that should be avoided if I am doing a pure "glitchless" run.
Taking data from the thread, here are thing that viewers felt were glitches:
- Swapping sides from guards and turning away from guards in mid-combat. Here is a section of the manual which mentions it - https://i.imgur.com/zk9CPfk.png
- "Walking on air". As I already mentioned, this is a standard mechanic in the series.
I have already linked this before but here is the same mechanic in the ps3 port - https://i.imgur.com/b5FNosj.mp4 I am not denying it has different physics and introduces new mechanics but I am sure anyone who is familiar with the franchise would even get the thought that it could be a glitch.
- Avoiding damage from a falling tile by ducking. I agree, that this doesnt belong if a run to be made under the "glitchless" branch.
- One hit kill jaffar. In the "to stop fighting" section of the manual snapshot I linked above, it is mentioned that "when you are off guard, a single sword blow can kill you", this exact same mechanic applies to enemies as well. The only thing we do is find a way to get close to him and strike before he becomes alert.
Feel free to point out other tricks I did in the run that would be considered glitches as per this site standards and also feel free to point out tricks that I mentioned in the ruleset that *won't* be considered glitches here.
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Nach wrote:
I wasn't confused by the threads. My only confusion is that you and eien86 kept saying "we" so I assumed the both of you worked on these two runs together. If that wasn't the case, then fine.
We both know each other very well at point, but yeah our contribution in each other's work was minimal. I primarily did the NMG one and eien did the any% one.
Nach wrote:
I'm not frustrated either, nor am I trying to antagonize you, I've only tried to clarify our rules. If I hadn't made it clear, I'm sorry. Hopefully feos' post above clarifies anything I failed to regarding major skips.
I very much respect the site guidelines, and I will definitely be more careful to follow them if I ever work on another submission. I am really sorry if I came across as annoying. And yeah feos' message did clarify a lot. Thanks for understanding :D
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There has been some confusion between the two threads, precisely because this thread has been discussing about any% and the other thread about NMG. I request any future discussions about the any% or the future plans to rectify to be moved to it's appropriate thread - http://tasvideos.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=22620
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Nach wrote:
That other run is going to be rejected because it was made using a modified copy of the game.
So is this run lol. You should already have a PhD in psychology of torturing TASers lol. Its not my fault that you were confused between the two threads, don't show your frustration on me, it's not very professional.
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Nach wrote:
From my perspective, Radiant posted a question here as to how we define these glitches as seen in this run as well as others. I am only describing how we normally refer to these. We don't care about what other communities are doing, we care about how we define things.
I am lost at this point. Are you saying clipping gates by running away from guards should be considered a major glitch? If so, it indeed is considered a major glitch and hence I *didn't* use it at any point in my NMG run, which is here - http://tasvideos.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=22581
This run does use the glitch because it is a no restrictions run, and also uses all the possible major glitches. Is it clear now?
As I said earlier I can understand why you guys feel the ruleset of my other run seem arbitrary. Feel free to reject that run if you strongly think so, but that is not something to be discussed in this thread imo.
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Nach wrote:
GMP wrote:
Nach wrote:
One example is in level 5, and you described it yourself in your submission notes for that level.
To quote myself - "Level 5: This level is both heavily RNG and movement based. There is nothing special to talk about this level other than the fact that I got pretty decent RNG from the guards."
Where do I mention passing a gate using a guard? That is indeed considered a major glitch. I think you are confused between this submission and my NMG submission, which is why I mentioned earlier why are we discussing about my submission here lol.
I am talking about your submission here where you wrote:
GMP wrote:
Level 5:
Here the door skip is employed to skip a big part of the level. This is performed by luring the guard to the left and then clipping through the door while on-guard. The rest of the level includes the normal route, optimized via the bot.
I consider this a major glitch, and that is the sort of thing we've always defined as a major glitch on TASVideos.
Yes, the skip was used here, because this isnt a No Major Glitches run. Hence it isn't submitted as a NMG run, it is submitted as any%. I didn't use this skip in my NMG submission.
I think there is a big confusion here. The thread we are in is the submission of eien86's Any% TAS, which has no restrictions other than some standard ones like not using a cheat code.
The (offtopic) discussion about my NMG submission started here when Radiant pointed out that I used "arbitrary RTA Rules", for which I clarified I used "arbitrary RTA Rules" of a specific category. For any%, RTA rules don't lay any restrictions either. I hope this clears it up.
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Nach wrote:
One example is in level 5, and you described it yourself in your submission notes for that level.
To quote myself - "Level 5: This level is both heavily RNG and movement based. There is nothing special to talk about this level other than the fact that I got pretty decent RNG from the guards."
Where do I mention passing a gate using a guard? That is indeed considered a major glitch. I think you are confused between this submission and my NMG submission, which is why I mentioned earlier why are we discussing about my submission here lol.
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Nach wrote:
GMP wrote:
Nach wrote:
Going past guards in certain places means you have completely new routes where you don't need to work around to find a way to open a gate or get an item needed to bypass the guard.
No going past the guards absolutely doesn't change the route at all. The only thing I'm need to kill guards is the sword which the prince has throughout the game. The only reason it's not done is because it is slow.
I'm not sure what you're talking about. In the first level, the prince does not start with the sword, and you have to go left and then back to get it. Going past the guard avoids that. There's two ways to do it, one is jumping through him as seen in the video. The other is to get him to follow you left, and keep doing so till you have a path to walk around him. Then suddenly in the second level you have the sword even though you didn't collect it.
In later levels where you go past the guard to push you past a gate, that absolutely changes the route.
Ok in level 1 it does changes the route, but that isn't even swapping sides with him, I just use intended mechanics to get around him.
I am not sure what you are talking about in the later levels. Can you point out a timestamp?
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Radiant wrote:
feos wrote:
GMP wrote:
There isn't one "Major skip glitch", as eien mentioned. there are a lot of major glitches that are not to be used in the NMG run.
How do you distinguish major glitches from non-major?
Frankly I'd also like to know that; I asked the same in the earlier thread.
For instance, turning off chompers is easily doable in real time, barely noticeable, and saves 2-3 seconds in a single spot, yet is considered a "major glitch". On the other hand, turning away from guards in mid-combat is really hard in real time (because bad RNG can get you killed), very visible because it looks funny, saves a ton of time, and is considered "not a glitch".
...I honestly don't get why.
We consider the chomper a glitch because it requires a specific fall, it not hard at all even in RTA but it's not as simple as just skipping a trigger either, in which case wouldn't have been considered a glitch at all. Regarding running away from the guards, I don't see why you keep bringing it at all. It is totally a intended feature and 100% consistent to get past them without even being hit. I take hits because it not worth to parry them in case they attack, but its like at most 0.3 seconds. At the end of the day, the whole point of the TAS is to push even totally intended mechanics to their last frame, so they are frame perfect in that sense, but that doesn't make them hard "tricks" in real time.
Nach wrote:
Going past guards in certain places means you have completely new routes where you don't need to work around to find a way to open a gate or get an item needed to bypass the guard.
No going past the guards absolutely doesn't change the route at all. The only thing I'm need to kill guards is the sword which the prince has throughout the game. The only reason it's not done is because it is slow.
I understand the sentiment that something being hard doesn't matter for TAS at all, but yeah I intended to show movement more than anything else.
PS: Not sure why we are discussing in this thread, whereas in the other thread discussion about any% is going on lol.
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feos wrote:
GMP wrote:
There isn't one "Major skip glitch", as eien mentioned. there are a lot of major glitches that are not to be used in the NMG run.
How do you distinguish major glitches from non-major?
The main factors we consider are how hard it is to pull off, how much time it saves, and lastly how visually jarring it looks. And then we agree as a community whether something is a major glitch or not.
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CasualPokePlayer wrote:
If you can get it working with libTAS, that should be acceptable as a Linux submission.
If I ever work on a TAS of this game again, I would simply use a original version of the game. But I will pass this information to the team doing the any% TAS.
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Radiant wrote:
Great run! I know this game quite well and this had me laughing and going "wtf?!" several time. You definitely have my vote, at least as soon as you include the copyprot screen. That should be easy enough, no?
feos wrote:
Rather, I'd say that RTA rules somewhat-arbitrarily allow certain glitches but not other glitches; the other run follows RTA rules and this one does not. That makes this run "any%", and the other one probably fails to be different enough for a new branch.
I dont follow "RTA rules", I follow the RTA rules for the "No Major Glitches" category, that is a very important detail. Also adding the copy protection screen back isn't as easy, I am not sure if there is way to do it without having to redo the whole thing.
feos wrote:
There isn't one "Major skip glitch", as eien mentioned. there are a lot of major glitches that are not to be used in the NMG run. They add up throughout the run and give a difference of about 6 minutes.
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Nach wrote:
To think of it differently, SDLPoP ports a DOS version to Windows and Linux (so the levels and various mechanics found in the game should be nearly identical), and this version is open sourced and freely available. If one were to TAS that, off the top of my head, I don't see any objections as to why we wouldn't accept it.
Oh, from what I understand it is actually far easier for eien to make a TAS in SDLPoP, he painstakingly copied the inputs to JPC-RR only because it was the only emulator relevant to this game that was listed as acceptable in the site guidelines.
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c-square wrote:
GMP wrote:
I used the cracked version and thought it would be exactly for the reasons eien86 stated and additionally I would like to add that this game is open source now as the creator of this game, Jordan Mechner uploaded the source code of the game to GitHub. But if it still fails to clear the site guidelines, I completely respect that.
Is the version you used the one that’s on GitHub? A strong argument could be made for using that one, as it comes directly from the creator.
Well I am not exactly sure how to answer that question. For all we know, we were able to extract a lot of information from that source code and apply it to this version of the game for strat hunting. There is a open source port of the game that was developed based on it called "SDLPoP", which is what the eien ran his bot on and all the rng states synced with version 1.0 of the game. I just stated that as an argument mainly in the sense that "This will surely not run into legal issues".
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I used the cracked version and thought it would be exactly for the reasons eien86 stated and additionally I would like to add that this game is open source now as the creator of this game, Jordan Mechner uploaded the source code of the game to GitHub. But if it still fails to clear the site guidelines, I completely respect that.
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Great TAS, as a member of RTA community and also having done a TAS of this game myself, I can say that this TAS is quite well optimised both in terms of movement and RNG manipulation. I would also like to mention that despite being one of people credited in the description, my participation in making of this TAS was extremely minimal, not more than giving some little feedback. Eien did a lot of work for this game all by himself in the past 2 months including level 7 and 8 skips, setting up the bot, finding the optimal setup for the emulator to be in sync with the bot, etc. and this is the result of it. Yes vote.
