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L'idée est sympa, ça peut être très intéressant à faire.
Bon par contre je pense être "out" parce que je ne suis pas un grand connaisseur (ni fan) de ces jeux et je n'ai pas encore regardé ces runs (oui, honte à moi :P).
Ca marcherait comment techniquement? Commentaires audio j'imagine, en "temps réel"?
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Tompa wrote:
The levels you can't be finished without B are:
2-Pyramid: Have to destroy the blocks which requires either B for the tail of B to carry a shell, can't glitch through.
6-5: Though not needed to beat, it can't be finished without flying and use B.
7-Fort 1: Can be skipped with a cloud, impossible ti beat without flying.
7-9: Can be skipped with cloud. Need to pick up blocks or glitch through wall.
*7-F2. Doable, but you'll need a leaf. And you an skip it with a cloud.
I don't think I've missed any at least. So the only level you can't get past is the Pyramid, as there are no clouds up to world 2.
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Ajavalo wrote:
Nice! :P Levels are getting way less linear from now on, let's see how they turn out.
About Act 3, is there some special strategy to TAS it, or is it just holding right and jumping?
There is absolutely no strategy required for act 3... The only options are:
-move left
-move right
-jump
Since I doubt we can find a glitch or something to spice it up, we are thinking of ways to make it less boring and try to add variety (if it is possible...). It is a typical autoscroll level, but with almost nothing to do :P
(don't worry, we'll try to move to the beat at some points, since it's quite a good music we have here)
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And here is Sunset Park act 2:
Link to video
We discovered that hitting a ceiling after a jump can have interesting results sometimes. After it happens, Sonic lands and stays in ball form, but the best part is that he keeps his max speed.
In fact it was used in Great Turquoise act 1 (in the breakable tunnel), but we didn't know why sonic kept his speed at the time. We just assumed tunnels like that had some magic properties :P
Here you can see it just before the end of the act.
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Maybe the name "demo" is not perfect, but I like that idea.
I can imagine a tier where multi-game runs, bot-only runs or things like really heavy glitched runs (SMW, Pokémon yellow, etc... the ones that completely destroy a game by memory corruption and stuff like that) are stored.
The mad scientist tier :P
But it can be some kind of category, if not a tier... I just feel like they need to have a special distinction so that people can find them easily.
But I'm not sure for the inclusion of those heavy glitched runs, anyway, it's just an idea.
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It was an amazing run to watch. The variety of Knuckles' "moveset" made it very entertaining, with the addition of nice glitches, rare enough to not destroy the gameplay.
I vote Yay!
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Ajavalo wrote:
It's nice to see people workin in such an awesome Sonic handheld! Keep up the good work!
By the way, isn't there a way to measure in-game time in Boss Acts? Or at least an approximation, it's already pretty awkward that the game doesn't show it.
Hum, measuring ingame time is possible but there's a problem...
In normal acts, it stops right when we hit the panel, but here it continues even after the boss is dead and when the "cutscene" with Knuckles plays... In fact it doesn't stop until the next act begins ^^
We could come up with something arbitrary, like when the Boss' HP hits 0 in RAM, but I don't know if that's ok.
Edit: Just did the math with the boss, his HP reach 0 at 0:21.67
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From what I can see/read, it's good technically.
And for entertainment, it's a special case. For me, a big part of the entertainment is simply the game choice. And the description adds a little to it.
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JWinslow23 wrote:
I know about that! I'm not a hardcore TASer, but this is actually my personal record. How about I try a TAS in which I buy everything (and I mean EVERYTHING)?
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I vote yes for the entertainment, since I can't really comment on the technical aspects (but obsoleting a run is a good indicator about optimization). This game made me suffer at the time, but I managed to finish it; watching the game suffer in return is... a pleasure ^^
I'll note that surfing on Rash is a nice way to reach the bottom of huge towers.
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TheThrillness wrote:
No, the problem is we can't trigger the cut scene. If you trigger it, then everything is fine.
This may help for you to understand.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PV3W2p1jwvI
I thought I had it there. I maybe do but I can't replicate it from the save I used in the video so it must be near frame precision unless I am overlooking something.
The first time I load, as you can see I have no walk through walls. I reload and unequip all items and card, I throw the guard and then I am able to like walk through the turns of the walls as if walk through walls got activated halfway in.
Here is my save for pSX in video if you want to try yourself: http://www.mediafire.com/?b3dv525x7uuhdvl
Hum, so it's possible...
Either you had a lot of luck or it has something to do with the room displayed, as we can see it's all dark until the door is opened. Notice that on the 2nd try, the door stays opened (because of the guard), and you moved a little more down to get him. Maybe these things factor in the result, maybe not.
Now I'm even wondering if the OoB glitch is necessary to open that door ^^
The advice I'd give you is to try using some more TAS tools to help you with it.
For example, start recording and try and try again until you can do it again, then the success will be recorded and you'll have the possibility to analyse exactly what you did (watching snake's position all the way with ram watch and frame by frame in frame advance, along with which buttons you pressed and when).
What emulator are you using? I only managed to make the game work properly with PSXjin (but the life bar was missing...).
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TheThrillness wrote:
It's not ever yet, Snake! We have a potential Nikita missile electrified floor and Gray Fox skip!
Okay the back story.
The stinger is looking impossible. So I decided to try walk through walls at different areas. I noticed that you could trigger the Meryll going to Mantis scene in the bathroom but you must satisfy what seems to be these conditions.
1. You must open the main hall door yourself for the cut scene trigger to load on the map. (guards going to toilet won't work but it shows the graphics)
2. You must pass through the girls bathroom door or at least be standing inside it.
3. Go to the usual place to activate the cut scene.
I got this to work: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RtbXuwzgCoE
The only thing stopping us is that you actually can't load the door in the corridor as you can't get back inside the map and only way to is walking to the commander room which is no door loading obviously and from there you can get inside the map but moment you use the card key, you get stuck in bounds. :(
Get your thinking caps on!
I'm not sure to understand exactly where Snake is stuck, so I'll recap:
-you can get in the bathroom and trigger the scene where Meryl complains for an hour and you get the Famas
-once it's over, are you still out of bounds? If not (or if you can go back "in bounds"), you don't have the card to go to the commander's room? (and I don't remember if Meryl prevents you from going back where you did the OoB trick)
Without knowing exactly what is blocking Snake, I'll still throw ideas anyway ^^
Did you try killing Meryl or yourself to see if using "continue" changes something? (killing Meryl is more fun)
Maybe if you knock her down and drag her to the door...
If the door doesn't have a "loading zone" for some reason, maybe it can be fixed by going to where Otacon is (but I don't know if it's possible and if it works, I don't think you are allowed to take the elevator after the cutscene).
For other ideas, if nothing works, during the Gray Fox fight, I think you can go out of bounds to see what you can do from here. Is it possible in the battle vs Raven in the tank, too?
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I just hope nobody will use heavy memory corruption to jump to the credits or the "The End" screen. It would ruin the fun for the other players. (but I'd still like to see the credits, I'm curious)
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Dada wrote:
Well, technically you've been TASing all along if you've been using save states. :) I was thinking that perhaps using frame advance to play through certain key sequences very slowly might help, but the probability of finding something is admittedly low.
Had some problems getting psxjin to work earlier (complaining about not being able to find dbgeng.dll, for some reason) but as soon as I'm able to I'll give the ammo thing a try, although it's a loooong shot. :)
I just tried the ammo trick and it didn't work, with the Socom at least. I didn't find a way to open the weapon menu at the right time (with frame advance): too late and Snake fires and the Socom loses a bullet before entering the menu, and too early and it doesn't fire at all (and switching to another weapon does nothing).
Maybe with the Famas... Or trying harder / with weird circumstances.
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bigvilo wrote:
T'y as un peu contribué oui!
En fait, pour ce qui est de la vidéo, est-ce que les enregistrements intégrés aux émulateurs permettent de prendre en compte les savestates et au final ne garder que l'enregistrement? C'est assez dur à expliquer ce que je veux savoir, en fait ce serait pour savoir si si on fait un TAS qui ne soit pas fait en un trait, la vidéo devra être remontée via un logiciel ou si l'enregistrement ne comptera pas les petits "zappages".
Quand on fait un TAS, en fait on fabrique petit à petit un fichier "movie", qui enregistre la liste de touches appuyées à chaque frame. Le truc c'est que revenir en arrière avec les savestates revient aussi en arrière dans ce fichier movie, ce qui fait qu'au final, quand t'as ton TAS tout fini et tout, on n'a que la version finale de chaque passage que tu aurais recommencé plein de fois. En bref: le fichier movie final ne montre pas ce qui s'est passé dans tous les essais "ratés", c'est le jeu dans l'ordre. Puis quand tu enregistres ça en avi ou autre avec l'émulateur, il rejoue simplement le fichier movie tout en construisant la vidéo.
Donc voilà, en faisant une vidéo finale, tu n'as pas les retours en arrière que tu as fait pendant la création du TAS.
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Réponse un peu à l'arrache ^^
-les outils, c'est avant tout l'émulateur, et quand on prend celui/ceux recommandé(s) sur ce site selon la machine qu'on vise, les outils sont intégrés. Pour les détails en français, encore une fois je recomande le guide de STBM.
-l'enregistrement en fichier vidéo, ben c'est une fonction intégrée aussi aux émulateur mentionnés (je pense, je n'ai pas testé tous ces émulateurs, peut-être qu'il y en a sans cette fonction). Ca nous sort un fichier vidéo "classique", ensuite on a souvent besoin de le faire passer par un autre logiciel spécialisé si on veut peaufiner les détails comme la compression, le framerate, les sous-titres, etc... Mais il y a plein d'encodeurs spécialisés sur ce site qui font en général ce travail à partir du fichier movie (la liste des inputs) pour obtenir la meilleure qualité possible pour les runs publiées.
-manette ou clavier, c'est un choix complètement subjectif, au final ça revient au même. Mais sachant qu'on utilise des trucs comme le frame advance et les savestates, il faut prévoir des boutons supplémentaires pour ce genre de fonctions. Si on veut jouer à la manette, soit on a assez de boutons dessus, soit on utilise la manette et le clavier en parallèle (pas forcément pratique).
J'ai juste survolé les questions, mais j'espère que j'ai déjà aidé un peu ;)
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GoddessMaria15 wrote:
I have to say, this is good opening progress. Though you can actually go through the level end transition a little quicker. In general, I say good luck on this!
Also: Poor Tails... gets no respect as always.
Yep, the end transition can be (and has been ^^) improved. The time, too, now it's 0:18.40. Six frames faster, 25 more and we could have a nice 0:17.
The thing is that lag frames count towards ingame time, they are not ignored, the counter still runs.
I can't say if it's possible to achieve without finding some new glitch, just by managing lag.
Maybe there is some hope if it's possible to hit the diagonal bumper without touching the ground at all before it; it seems unlikely...
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Paused wrote:
Grincevent wrote:
(zipping, please ^^),
No thanks! ^^
Glad to see that a TAS of the game looks as nice as I had hoped.
I saw that your route went through a Special Stage monitor, but did not get the rings to use it. What is your Chaos emerald route going to be? I'm surprised that there are quicker Special Stage monitors to use than that one.
Hum, in fact, after thinking about it and all... We're going for an any% run, "bad ending" branch considering the end screen.
The major point is that it's better to show the fastest time on every level, not sacrificing 5 of them to get the emeralds.
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bigvilo wrote:
C'est-à-dire polémique? Qu'il n'y ait pas beaucoup de spectateurs, ce sont des choses qui arrivent, mais la polémique...
Je parle du genre shoot em up en général, parce que c'est des jeux qui sont à 99% à scrolling imposé, donc où on peut pas vraiment aller "plus vite". Le gameplay est aussi assez répétitif. Question d'"entertainment", quoi (c'est un facteur très important pour les TASeurs).
Celui que tu as choisi a une particularité quand même qui peut aider, c'est du versus donc le truc sera de trouver le moyen le plus rapide de battre l'IA. Mais même avec ça, c'est limité par l'apparition des ennemis (qui n'est pas aléatoire? Si?); il y a aussi quand même le côté répétitif d'un shoot au niveau de l'action et des possibilités de jeu.
Bref j'ai cité les points qui peuvent faire que la run sera peu intéressante pour quelqu'un qui ne connaît pas le jeu, en la jouant pessimiste.
Mais peu importe, si le jeu te botte, faut pas hésiter à le tenter en TAS. Surtout si t'es motivé.
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Ah, un shoot em up (type vs pour un peu de variation)... C'est un genre qui ne "marche" pas très bien en TAS, en tout cas du point de vue spectateur. T'as choisi un genre un peu polémique (comme certains puzzle games ou autres).
Mais si tu ne cherches pas à en faire une run publiée à tout prix, rien ne t'empêche de te faire la main dessus pour t'entraîner au TAS.
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Ah oui, trouver un jeu c'est pas forcément facile, surtout si c'est pour débuter.
Tout dépend de ton but avec le 1er jeu. Si c'est juste pour apprendre à faire du TAS, y'a déjà moins de contraintes que si tu espères en faire une run publiable.
Mon avis sur les choix de jeu pour débuter (il vaut ce qu'il vaut):
-un jeu que tu aimes et connais déjà très bien (règle d'or je dirais)
-pour pas te prendre la tête du début avec des subtilités trop complexes, je conseille un jeu qui a une "physique" simple. J'ai commencé sur Castlevania et c'est un exemple typique, où un saut est un saut; on appuie sur A et c'est réglé (pas de dosage ni de changement de direction en l'air...). En gros les mouvements sont rigides et donc simples à décortiquer, pour mieux se concentrer sur le reste du jeu. Mais soit il faut alors chercher à en faire une run complète et optimisée, soit on passe à un autre jeu une fois qu'on maîtrise les outils du TAS.
-si le jeu que tu choisis a déjà pas mal d'infos à consulter c'est bien. Vois dans la partie "game resources" du wiki si ce jeu y est et lis les publications déjà faites dessus (et regarde les vidéos) pour connaître quelques subtilités.
Si tu choisis un jeu qui a été beaucoup TASé, et qui a pas mal de techniques complexes exploitables, tu risques de te décourager si tu n'arrives pas à un résultat correct comparé aux runs publiées.
Par exemple je déconseille des jeux comme les Metroid, Sonic sur Megadrive, les Megaman... En fait beaucoup de jeux très populaires ^^
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bigvilo wrote:
Salut tout le monde!
Un nouveau français dans la place, bigvilo de son pseudo (c'est moi hein!). Intéressé par les TAS depuis quelques temps, je viens ici pour voir ce qui va arriver en premier ici et profiter de vidéos impressionnantes. Par contre, je me suis un peu renseigné sur le sujet, mais je n'ai pas encore faire de speedrun du genre... Y'a des topics à lire en priorité pour savoir comment bien commencer?
@+ les gens!
Eh ben si tu préfères déjà avoir des infos en français, STBM a commencé un guide qui explique comment on fait un TAS: http://tasvideos.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=13224
Ensuite, et si tu te débrouilles en anglais, y'a un peu de tout dans la section Articles du wiki, pour entrer dans les détails.
Puis y'a aussi des gens pour répondre aux questions spécifiques que tu te poserais ici ^^
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The first WIP is here:
Link to video
Unless we find some hidden trick or bug (zipping, please ^^), I don't think we can go under 0:18.
There is a "sub-timer" that counts to 60 each time before adding a second to the actual clock. Here it stops at 30, so that makes it 0:18.50 I guess.
The movie file is here.
