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Here's a new argument, a relevant example that's maybe worth thinking and discussing about.
What if (hypothetically) Super Mario World is made this way, that every road on the map is already unlocked when you first enter the game, and you're allowed to walk everywhere or start at any level on the map?
Then it would be an open world game. Hypothetically, let's call it Super Mario Open World.
The any% run (no ACE) would be: walking to the last level on the map, beating Bowser, saving the princess, the end.
It's maybe a boring run compared to other categories like "all stages" and "all exits". Call it cheap or lame as you want, but that would be the fastest completion of Super Mario Open World, which certainly would be allowed as a speedrun category.
What I'm saying is this: if the game Super Mario Open World is made that way, then all of the other stages would be optional, at least for the fastest game completion.
This hack is a lot like Super Mario Open World. The hack creator allows player to start from 8-1 instead of 1-1, so why not do it when you want to save the princess as fast as possible?
I haven't played many games myself, so I can't think of better examples. If you know a game like this, please help comment.
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NxCy wrote:
I think when it comes to ROM hacks, there's usually some expectation that the run will involve gameplay that is substantively different to the original game. I haven't watched the other TAS of this game, but going by this run alone, I didn't see anything that hasn't been done before. It looked like basically just holding right + jumping through a couple of levels that look more or less identical to ones from the original game. Of course I don't blame HappyLee for that... I find the original SMB TASes interesting for historical / nostalgia reasons, but I've never really found SMB to be a very exciting game for speedrunning. Therefore, although I'm sure the run is optimised, I decided to vote no.
Fair enough. But please understand, that most SMB hack TASes are like this. I only thought of making a TAS of this hack after I saw the published TAS.
I just wanted to make fastest completion TAS of this hack. Beating a game as fast as possible is a large part of what we do on TASVideos. As I said in the submission text, this is far from my favourite TAS. Whether people like it or not, I'm OK with it.
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Masterjun wrote:
HappyLee wrote:
A judge changed the MovieRules just to reject my TAS, how should this be allowed?
It is.
If we couldn't change rules, we'd be stuck in 2006 rules. If rules couldn't be changed to reject exactly one movie that it applies to, then I would leave.
If you don't trust TASVideos staff with Movie Rules, you should try to become staff yourself, or leave.
I'm not saying that rules can't be changed. Like feos said: "changing a policy only happens when there's a common agreement". That I fully agree.
But in this case, movie rules were changed before deeper discussions even took place, and the person who changed it happened to be the judge of this submission, and the new rule change happened to lead to rejection of this submission.
In my opinion, a judge should make judgements based on current existing rules, instead of judging while making & changing rules.
Or at least, there should be further discussions and community consensus, before change of rules took place.
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Memory wrote:
If you continue to send these baseless accusations of direct attack, you will be banned from the site for 3 months.
You see, that wasn't friendly at all.
It's not "baseless accusations" if what I said was what truly happened here, and I haven't "attacked" anyone.
I'm the one who's being threatened and criticised here.
Like feos said, "users are higher priority for us". In my opinion, every movie submitter deserves a fair judgement.
I've joined TASVideos since 2007. I never felt it could be so hostile than it is now. I first felt it when I was badly treated in 2018, in a TAS that shouldn't have any controversy.
I was even attacked on YouTube comments by a user here with fake accounts, and that user is still active and commenting on my movies.
It's OK if some people don't like this TAS, or if this TAS doesn't get accepted. I'm going to keep making high quality TASes in the future.
If I'm banned for this, then I'd think TASVideos is not good place for me anymore, and I'd suggest other TASers to leave as well.
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Lobsterzelda wrote:
Also, consensus on not allowing passwords is probably pretty uniform across the board here. I would be opposed to using a level-select code here, for example, and I imagine that if a poll was made on this topic, about ~90% of people on the site would probably agree with me.
I'm against using passwords (generally) myself. This TAS doesn't use passwords. I think it doesn't use "level-select code" either, because most people would think level-select code like "Up, Up, Down, Down, Left, Right, Left, Right, B, A, B, A, Start" cheat code, which is usually hidden. All I did was pressing B to select a world. The hack creator called it a "special feature".
GMP wrote:
There is no arbitrary cutoff point to this. Standard "any%" means having meaningful progression. The reason there is a RTA category for level skip is that it is a good challenge with the 15 min time limit for new human runners, and a good way for more experienced players to sharpen their later level skills. But it's meaningless for a TAS.
"Meaningful progression" could be somewhat subjective. What's meaningful to someone might be meaningless to someone else. Could the real reason there is a RTA category for level skip be, that it's simply a way to beat this game? It's not meaningless for a TAS because it's faster, but if most players think banning Shift+L is a better rule for an any% run, then I have nothing against it.
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GMP wrote:
Just thought of another example. In DOS Prince of Persia, the first 3 levels can be skipped with Shift+L. And it's not a cheat, it's intended to be kind of a demo of the later levels as you get only 15 minutes to complete the game instead of the 60 that you normally get. Unsurprisingly 15 minutes is more than enough for a speedrun to beat the game from level 4 onwards. But the published TAS does not skip the first 3 levels. There was an older TAS that took advantage of the level skip but was not even submitted.
Thanks. That's a good example, and finally one that's similar to this case.
It can be seen as a "demo" or a "practice mode", that allows the player to skip about 21% of the game.
There's only one publication about this game on TASVideos, and in the submission text the Game objectives clearly wrote: This category requires that all levels are completed (without skipping the first three levels using the SHIFT+L cheat code).
I checked speedrun.com, and there's Any%, Any% Level Skip, 100% categories.
GMP wrote:
But if hypothetically an improved level skip TAS was submitted, I don't it think it should or will be accepted even as a separate branch, let alone obsolete the current publication.
Maybe so. But a skipped TAS won't be accepted here mostly because it would be too much like the published TAS (with only about 21% difference), not because the level skip itself is banned by the movie rules.
If the movie difference is greater than 50%, then I'd support setting a different category here as well, similar to speedrun.com.
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LogansGamingRoom wrote:
HappyLee wrote:
Yes, and my TAS does not, i repeat, DOES NOT, use cheat codes or passwords.
you do know pressing B to select a world is technically a cheat, right?
No. It's not a cheat. You're the first person in this topic saying that.
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LogansGamingRoom wrote:
HappyLee wrote:
Our movie rules are clear about this: "Cheat codes and passwords are only allowed to access harder difficulties and/or bonus content, including cosmetic improvements."
the final world is not, i repeat, IS NOT, a harder difficulty, bonus content or a cosmetic improvement.
Yes, and my TAS does not, i repeat, DOES NOT, use cheat codes or passwords.
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Fortranm wrote:
Do you consider the first three levels of Operation C to be optional in this case?
It depends. I haven't played this game. If skipping the first 3 levels won't affect the ending, then they are optional, so why not skip them?
Also there's a game version issue. We'd prefer using a better game version here on TASVideos instead of strange or faulty versions. I'm guessing the game version used by adelikat & Alyosha doesn't have such level select features?
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Fortranm wrote:
Might be a late to this, but Japanese and GBC versions ofOperation C (and a number of other Konami games on GB around the same time) allow the player to start from a later level by default without any cheat code or password.
The example includes a in-game cheat code, and even the wiki page calls it a "level select cheat". Our movie rules are clear about in-game cheat codes.
Our movie rules are clear about this: "Cheat codes and passwords are only allowed to access harder difficulties and/or bonus content, including cosmetic improvements."
I didn't use any in-game cheat code in this TAS, and what I did shouldn't be considered as cheating.
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feos wrote:
It's impossible to have rules set in stone and to expect users to remain happy about them. So because users are higher priority for us, we always try to make our rules make the most sense. And to accomplish this, we rely on the best thing we have available: community consensus.
We discuss things together with our users, we brainstorm, we come up with solutions, and we implement those solutions if there's a balanced agreement about it. Which means it meets expectations of different sides. This is basically what I've been doing here for years.
Well said, but in this case, the rules are changed by the judge Samsara before community consensus was reached. My TAS was targeted by the new rule change, so I'm not satisfied, and then I got threatened and the topic got locked.
That doesn't seem friendly at all to me. I was targeted and my TAS would be rejected for this. A judge changed the MovieRules just to reject my TAS, how should this be allowed?
-
I made a fastest completion TAS of this game, using a method that's allowed by the hack creator, and doesn't violate the MovieRules at the time.
Of course that doesn't mean that this should be automatically published. All I want is a fair judgement.
At first, I was accused by LogansGamingRoom, Memory, Samsara, & despoa for "breaking the rule". In Samsara's first comments, it seems that the rule I broke is this: You are not allowed to skip levels with passwords.
Then I explained that my TAS doesn't use passwords. It's only a level select feature added by the hack creator. There was nothing in the previous MovieRules banning level selection features.
Then Memory said: "The rules were shortened..." Samsara said: "The rule can be reworded..."
Then the MovieRules page was edited by judge Samsara, and a new rule appeared: "You are not allowed to skip levels with any form of intended level select feature." Edit reason (by Samsara): fine, it's in the rules now
Then Noxxa repeatedly told me: "No new rule was added."
That's basically how I see what happened in this topic.
-
feos wrote:
There's also a point that pressing B is not a password. But is it any different in what it does, compared to level passwords in other games?
What they do are the same: skipping some levels. But so does a Warp Zone. So the discussion needs to go deeper than that.
As stated before, I'm totally in favour of the rule banning passwords or in-game cheat codes (at least for most of the cases), because they are considered cheating. And the previous MovieRules are very clear about this one.
The world selection feature I used is very different from using passwords or in-game cheat codes.
Samsara keeps telling me that whether the hack creator allows this world selection, or whether it's in the game manual (Readme.txt) is "irrelevant". But I think they are what make it different than passwords.
What we really should be discussing is: should we ban non-gameplay level selection, just like banning passwords and in-game cheat codes.
It would be great if people can provide convincing examples, like explaining what damage it could cause if we allowed non-gameplay level selection, but so far I haven't seen any example similar as this case.
Samsara posted two examples, but they only completes a task or a branch of a game. My TAS completes the game and got the true ending. Noxxa and LogansGamingRoom posted an example which includes a faulty ROM (or bad version of a game), but I didn't use a faulty ROM.
I'm not familiar with many games, but I posted an example of the "both quests" RTA category. It uses world selection to start the second quest in World 8 in the title screen, just like in this TAS. I don't see anyone complaining about this usage of this non-gameplay level selection. This RTA category is popular among top speedrunners. For example, Niftski (current SMB RTA WR holder) did it in his 4:54.798 World Record run.
If people can accept using non-gameplay level selection in that case, so why not in this run? The only difference is, in this hack, world selection is allowed before seeing the Princess.
In my opinion, if we're to ban something in MovieRules, we should better do it with solid reasons.
feos wrote:
This is not the case with level select, because gameplay is simply missing when you start from a farther level. So since level select doesn't substantially change your routing and the feel of the challenge, but simply removes it instead, it was not traditionally published as a separate category.
What if the missing gameplay is optional? Since world selection is allowed by the hack creator, Worlds 1-7 are not required for saving the princess and getting the true ending. My TAS aims for the fastest completion, so natually I don't have to play every level if they are optional.
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EZGames69 wrote:
Just because something isn’t explicitly mentioned in the rules doesn’t mean it’s an automatic endorsement.
True. I'm not saying that this TAS should automatically be published just because it's faster and didn't break any previous movie rule. I just made a real any% TAS which uses a method allowed by the hack creator. How and if it to be published, it's up to the judges to decide.
Samsara wrote:
If you continue intentionally ignoring the repeated times we have told you this is not a new rule, this thread will be locked and action may be taken against your account for disruptive posting.
But clearly I met a judge who even changed the movie rule just to reject this TAS, and threatens to lock this thread or block my account.
When I joined TASVideos on 2007, this used to be a friendly place for all TASers. My submissions were rejected before, but for good and fair reasons. Right now I can feel the hostilities in the air. What a pity.
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LogansGamingRoom wrote:
here’s another example:
https://tasvideos.org/2364M
- uses a level select rather than a password
- was obsoleted by a full game completion
It's been raised before by Noxxa, and I replied. Even he admitted that he used a faulty ROM. I didn't use a faulty ROM.
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Noxxa wrote:
The same rule already encompassed level selection like this (or at least it intended to, but the wording was not sufficiently clear, which is why it was now updated). No new rule was added.
Previous: You are not allowed to skip levels with passwords.
My TAS doesn't use passwords.
New rule: You are not allowed to skip levels with any form of intended level select feature.
Edit reason (by Samsara): fine, it's in the rules now
So cut the words play. That looks like adding a new rule (or at least changing the MovieRules) just to reject my submission. Seriously, how should this be allowed?
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Noxxa wrote:
What do you think level select menus or toggles are for? They are also usually left into the game for debugging and testing conveniences, or for players to be able to mark their progress in a game that has no savegames. Do you think the game design intended for the players to start progress at world 8?
At least for this particular hack, players are allowed to start at World 8 as well as any other world, and that's intended by the hack creator.
Noxxa wrote:
Samsara did not add a new rule, she added a clarification to the rule. Nothing has changed to how the rule is enforced. This was stated multiple times.
There wasn't any rule banning level selection before, and now there is. That looks like adding a new rule to me.
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Samsara wrote:
There is no distinction between systems that use passwords and systems that don't, they are all level select systems. The lack of distinction is what makes this such a serious concern for us.
No. I don't think passwords are level select. They're are usually for designers to debug, or for players to restore progress (kind of like a savestate). It's not the same thing as the world selection in this game, so I think we need some better distinctions.
Samsara wrote:
Consider what an average viewer would see if we allowed this to obsolete the published run: A run that uses level select to bypass seven worlds has completely obsoleted a run that plays all eight worlds.
Again, I never once suggested in the submission text or the forum that my run should obsolete the published run. As I said, it's for the judges to decide. However, I think the label and the introduction text on the movie page are clearly wrong, and need be fixed sometime in the future.
Samsara wrote:
Genuine question: Do you truly believe that all warp zones and methods of skipping levels are considered level select features?
Yes, of course. Warp Zones are a form of level select feature, and it's intended. For example, you can choose to go into 2-1, 3-1, or 4-1.
"You are not allowed to skip levels with any form of intended level select feature."
To me, this newly added rule says that Warp Zones aren't allowed, along with many other level select features.
Samsara wrote:
At worst, it would look like we are intentionally bending the rules purely to benefit you specifically.
So it's OK for you to add a new rule in Wiki: MovieRules just to reject my movie specifically?
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Pankaj wrote:
Password and level selector might have different working but they do the same thing in most cases which is skipping levels I have an example:
here is my run: https://tasvideos.org/969G
It has 8 levels and 1 final boss
But at the title screen you can enter a password and directly skip to the final boss and finish the game in less than 30 seconds and obsolete my 10m47s run and according your definition the real any% run should be this levels skipping TAS but it is not the case not even in RTA Category of this game and it shouldn't be allowed
I think we should be clear once again, that my TAS doesn't use a password. Also, I'm against using password in an any% TAS or speedrun, because it's cheating. The Wiki: MovieRules said it clearly.
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Samsara wrote:
Until now, there has never been a reason to list that rule, as it is obvious to anyone in any speedrunning community that it is in bad faith to try and pass this off as a valid form of full game completion. That being said, I have edited that rule in now, as a way of clarifying the rule that we have always had and enforced.
I see that this has just been added for the Wiki: MovieRules:
"You are not allowed to skip levels with any form of intended level select feature."
So according to this new added rule, shall we remove my 04:57.31 TAS, because I skipped lots of levels with the intended level select feature called "Warp Zone"? Shall we remove the current SMB3 and SMW "any%, no ACE"TAS, because they skipped lots of levels on the world map?
I don't know. Probably because they want the category to be different than "Both Quests", but also comparable with the any% category.
At least on speedrun.com, "Both Quests" is a more popular category than "Second Quest", even though it's longer and requires more skills.
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I've looked at the examples. Those are examples of a single level or single task being obsoleted by a full game TAS, which I have nothing against. If my TAS goal were "beating World 1" or "beating 4-2", you're welcome to reject or obsolete the submission with such reasons.
This TAS doesn't beat a segment or branch of this game. This TAS beats the game, and got the true ending. So it's not the same as the examples above.
Samsara wrote:
Allowing this movie would be setting an incredibly dangerous precedent. It would mean any game with a level select system, whether it be a password or pressing a button at the title screen, could have its any% run obsoleted through usage of that level select. No speedrunning community, TAS or RTA, should be allowing this universally. We never have, we most likely never will.
This is a serious statement, and also a very important issue to me. I'd admit I haven't played many games before. Can you show me 2 or 3 examples in which a level select system (no password allowed) could obsolete an any% run (providing it's a real any% run that's intended to be the fastest completion of the game)?
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Can we at least agree on these things?
1. This TAS doesn't use any password. No cheating. World selection is added by the hack creator and written in the manual (readme.txt).
2. The hack creator allows starting from World 8. Worlds 1-7 are optional for getting true ending in this hack.
3. There's no rule in our current Wiki: MovieRules that says a TAS has to start from the very first level of the game, or level select should be banned.
4. As a reference, SMB "Both Quests" RTA allows pushing button B to select a world. Even the best SMB speedrunners use it to start at World 8 for the second quest.
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I didn't use a faulty ROM, so I see no relevance.
Noxxa wrote:
In-game stage selects are for IL runs, and not for any% movies that claim to beat the game.
But the fact is I did beat the game. The ending is exactly the same as the published TAS.
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despoa wrote:
the fact of the matter here is you're using a level select feature that's available to you at the beginning of the game (i.e. doesn't need to be unlocked) and that breaks a rule that sadly appears haven't been clarified enough.
There's no rule in Wiki: MovieRules that says level select features are banned. I can't break a rule that doesn't exist.
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negative seven wrote:
In that case, one could abuse uninitialized RAM to start at world 8 in the original game to beat it faster.
I don't know if that counts as ACE. But in my opinion, if it really were possible, it would have been a category for SMB a long time ago.
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GMP wrote:
Easy difficulty is a gift from developers in a lot of games but we prefer harder difficulties if it offers interesting challenge. I think the same reasoning applies here.
I agree with the rule of TASing games in harder difficulties, because a TAS should have high standards.
But we're not talking about easy or hard modes here. We're talking about differences between "any%" and "all levels". You can imagine the world selection as a Warp Zone. Movies with warps that aims to beat the game in the fastest time still have lots of meaning.
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I don't care about your "bad ending" or failed runs. It's irrelevant here, because as I stated in the submission text: "After saving the princess, you'll get the very same ending text & credits. I see no reason not to use it in an any% TAS."
Spikestuff wrote:
Since you are stating half the publications should be removed, cause you're acting in a manor right now which is just astoundingly bad.
No, that was by your logic. You said my TAS doesn't accomplish anything, yet it's the fastest completion of this hack.
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