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Thanks for your advice, feos.
Tested simple Metal Slug 3 TASes on mame-rr. The first TAS desynced at the middle of Mission 2. I didn't remember if I had saved a savestate while pausing, so I decided to not pause or frame advance at all during the second TAS, and it desynced at the middle of Mission 1.
The good news is it didn't crash, or had any sound issues.
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Thanks to Nach and other judges for making the hard decision. I respect the judgment. Sorry for all the troubles this TAS has brought.
My deepest gratitude to all the people who have liked this TAS and shared their opinions here.
By the way, as others have also mentioned, could we have done better with our search engine? If I search "Super Mario Bros" with the current engine, the first outcome is my SMB2J FDS TAS, followed by SMAS-SMB2 TAS, SMB Wii TAS, and SMB2J Luigi TAS.
That's far not the worst result. If I'm looking for BrunoVisnadi & Amaraticando's wonderful Super Mario World TAS in 09:57.1, and search "Super Mario World", the first outcome is GBA. Where is their TAS? Not even on the first page, but all alone in the second page, where people the least expect.
Edit: Also, I should add that Nach's "playable time" calculation may lead to the wrong conclusion, because I deliberately wasted time in all the levels except 8-4 for entertainment in PAL version (especially 8-1 and 8-2), but I only wasted time in 4-2 in the NTSC version.
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That's sad news...
By the way, I was hoping that FBA-rr would somehow upgrade, or BizHawk would somehow support Arcade games, so that making Metal Slug TASes would bring fewer headaches. Probably won't happen anytime soon, but I'd still hope that it's just a matter of time that someone kindly rescues Arcade TASers.
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First of all, sorry for bringing so much trouble for the judges. I'm against obsoleting the NTSC run, and I feel that SMB TASes should be done on NTSC, for the following reasons:
1. JPN/USA version should be the definitive version for SMB, since SMB is made in Japan, almost all hacks are made on this version, and most great SMB speedrunners including darbian and andrewg all do speedruns on this version.
2. The only thing good for PAL SMB runs (warped/warpless) is being faster because of the different flagpole glitch. The new glitches on PAL (different flagpole glitch, ground clip, swimming across the ceiling) bring too much madness and suggest that the game is broken further. The different flagpole glitch may seem fine for the warped run, but for the warpless run, it cancels all the cool strategies like Bullet Bill glitch, Cheep-cheep glitch, kicking shells in 3-1, 6-2 and 7-1, entering the ground, and so on. Those who favor replacing the NTSC run, if you don't think the PAL warped run is less entertaining than NTSC run, you can be sure that the PAL warpless run would definitely be more boring.
If this should be published, I'm in favor of CtrlAltDestroy's idea of publishing this to the Vault, as a "bad port" of a game that's not recommended for TASing. A PAL warpless run shouldn't be published at all because it would show much less cool glitches (not even the ground clip) even though it's faster, and a warpless walkathon on PAL is just not possible due to 4-3.
If people find this too controversial or not enough to make an exception, the best solution would be to reject it, and maybe put the submission link to where people might be interested in.
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scrimpeh wrote:
It's such a shame you couldn't use it in the 4-2 warp zone to save time.
Yeah. If I could have, I would have. This floor clip still requires a lift for optimizing Y position.
Nach wrote:
Is the new glitch here possible on NTSC version?
No, not by any chance. Me and Mars608 have actually proved it impossible using math calculation.
I hope this wouldn't bring too much pressure on judging. I'm fine with either outcome.
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Thank you, Personman, BrunoVisnadi, and everyone else, for your kind words. :)
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It should be impossible to improve time-wise until someone discovers a new glitch that I haven't known.
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SmashManiac wrote:
Why does the temp encode show a NES controller instead of a SNES controller for the input? There's two jump buttons and two dash buttons in this game, so I was expecting some frame-perfect tricks that took advantage of that.
Yes, there are two buttons, but they are identical, so this gane is basically NES based. Please don't expect me to do the impossible.
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That's an example of using a hidden coin block to enter a wall, one of the easiest tricks. Warpless TAS and RTA runs of FDS SMB2J use it to go through the pipe in 6-1 all the time.
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When making most of my TASes on FCEU, I prefer using TAS Movie Editor, because I'd like to keep it simple: opening a movie file, changing the inputs of some frames, or copying new inputs to another movie file to replace some frames.
But when TASing on BizHawk, I'm forced to use TAStudio, which I've never been comfortable with, because I don't need to create any projects or playing the movie from the beginning, I just want to change some frames...
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Buddybenj wrote:
Do any of these improvements also apply to the Luigi run?
I haven't tested it, but I guess only the 1-frame improvement in 8-4, if any. Since it's only 1 frame, and not many people would care about it, I wouldn't test it and other potential improvements until finishing my other project.
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Spikestuff wrote:
Can you get Famtasia running FDS?
I don't use Famtasia, but I know if you want to run FDS with FCEUX, "disksys.rom" is all you need.
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Not to blame anyone for anything, but this has been "publication underway" for over half a month. I hope it's not forgotten and nothing has gone wrong. Is there anything I can do to help, Spikestuff?
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That has nothing to do with the Koopa. It starts before that, from the Goomba you killed. The Goomba's dead body disappeared, but when the springboard or the flagpole is loaded, it took the address of the dead Goomba, and inherited its hitbox.
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OK. This is what happens when a dead Goomba meets a flagpole or a springboard. What you were shooting is a mixture of those two: a shape of a dead Goomba, and unpenetrable like a flagpole.
It also can be seen in 1-1 of the SMB "maximum coins" TAS, before the flagpole.
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Yes, since the time of this TAS and the previous TAS on our site are calculated in 60 fps, it only makes sense that we use 60 fps for that module calculation also.
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Finally get to see this published. If only the chosen screenshot were the second one, like ThunderAxe31 and I have suggested. The chosen screenshot seems a little messy, and Tarma seems pretty weird in it, stuck in tons of flames and a dead body... Just my opinion.
Also, Mr. Publisher, I'm wondering where 2:43.99 comes from. I thought the time's faster by 2:41.75 (as in zk547's submission text and my comparison encode), because our system uses 60 fps to calculate the time.
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That's weird. I think you mean something similar to this but not quite it, because in this case, the Hitbox only flashes for a frame, making it so hard to hit:
Link to video
Can you post an fm2 so we can analyze it? Thanks.
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zk547 wrote:
I don't really consider using Continues as "cheating," but I still don't like using them because to me, they look sloppy and hurt the flow of the run. You can even abuse them to turn certain sections into "1-player sections" by letting the timer run and summoning the 2nd player back once the section has been cleared. I think this goes against the idea of a "true 2-player run."
I agree. It's harder to define "2-player run" that way. So "no Continue" should be a more definitive goal for 2-player runs than allowing Continues.
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zk547 wrote:
Awesome video! Thanks for making this. I think I'll take the frames saved numbers from your video and add them to the submission text if you don't mind.
Thank you for enjoying it. Be my guest. :D
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pirate_sephiroth wrote:
Nah, deaths are lame.
Normally they are, but killing oneself on purpose is a different thing, which can often be seen as a smarter strategy. Not always smarter, but in Metal Slug runs, I think at least most of the times it is.
zk547 wrote:
I personally like not abusing deaths when it comes to using 2 players at level 8. I think it shows complete mastery over the game better because even good MS players struggle to beat this game with 2 players at level 8 without dying. We're already getting a slower time by intentionally playing at this setting for more entertainment value and I think the sense of not dying once through the whole game adds to that value. If it was 1 player level 4, then I wouldn't mind abusing death because then we can go for pure speed. (Though I guess you could then ask why people don't speedrun this game at level 1 for the fastest times). Just my thought on the use of deaths in MS TASes.
"Using hardest difficulty" is considered one of the basic requirements of TASes, but "deathless" is a requirement only when there are good reasons. I can think of some TASes published on this site that play the hardest difficulty and abuse deaths at the same time, so those two don't contradict each other.
We use the hardest difficulty because we don't choose the easy way out, but deaths as a strategy is not the easy way, and sometimes quite the opposite.
I'm in favor of allowing using deaths to save time. Reasons:
1. Deaths can be used only in certain places (like in space of MS3 and the train of MSX) to save time (and lots of them are pure waiting time with no action), and it doesn't hurt entertainment, but rather as a smarter strategy.
2. The current RTA runs use deaths to get more bombs, which looks smart, and well-planned.
3. Many TASes also allow deaths, including the current MS7 run.
4. I think the current RTA record holder Sukimos (probably the best Metal Slug speed runner in the world) also approves using deaths, since he has pointed out the improvement of suicide to get bombs.
As for Continue, I'm OK with it, because I don't totally get the idea of one coin being "normal play" and two coins being "cheating". The RTA runs allow Continue, but it's only useful when the player has made mistakes, like dying accidentally. I'm not sure if Continue can be useful in MS TASes, because there are only very limited places where dying saves time, and the Heavy Machine gun you get from Continue is probably the weakest weapon besides pistol. (Edit: 面点's MS3 TAS has proved that Continue can be useful to save time afterall. )
x2poet‘s old MSX TAS uses Continue at the trains, but I'm not sure if it's a good idea, because having compared it with Sukimos' MSX RTA run, it's probably faster to destroy the trains than suicide and letting them pass. I haven't done any tests, but since there is R and C and before the first train, and in TASes one can fire them a lot faster, and there is G in the second train and bombs in the third train, I think Sukimos' strategy of suicide after destroying might be the best strategy for "2 players, Level-8" TASes as well (not sure, testing is needed).
I've finally found a MS3 TAS that uses deaths and Continues properly (by 面点):
http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMTQ3MDA1MjU3Mg==.html
I think it is even faster than zk547's run in some of the places. I really enjoy the strategy of making a player appear eariler using Continue. Now I think using Continue wouldn't bad afterall, if it weren't accused of being "cheating".
Overall, I believe "1 coin" can be a solid and a better goal than "no deaths", because it limits the maximum number of deaths in 2, and avoids the "cheating" issue using Continue.
In other words, what goal makes better TASes in my opinion:
"1 coin (no Continue)" > "no limit (free coins and Continues)" > "no deaths"
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The comparison video should be done in a few hours. I hope someone would watch it, for I've taken some efforts writing the script.
Something to disscuss: Although this TAS and x2poet's MS TASes don't abuse death, I think that "deathless" should be removed from the future goals of Metal Slug TASes. Reasons:
1. Deaths can be used only in certain places (like in space of MS3 and the train of MSX) to save time, and it doesn't hurt entertainment, but rather a smarter strategy. I'm not sure if Continue is useful at all, probably not in MS3 and MSX TASes.
2. The current RTA runs use deaths to get more bombs, which looks smart, and well-planned.
3. Many TASes also allow deaths, including the current MS7 run.
Edit: My comparison video's finally done! Check out my first reply in this thread. Enjoy. :)
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Making a comparison encode. How is it possible that you saved 69 frames even before the "setup screen"? Is it true or I did something wrong?
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Question: I wonder if Bizhawk ever plans to support Arcade games? Is it just a matter of time, or something nearly impossible? I'd like to know because FBA-rr has been unstable and very hard for TASers and encoders for a long time.
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Challenger wrote:
Super Mario Bros. or Extra Mario Bros?
Neither. But it won't be a big surprise, I guess. You'll see.
Challenger wrote:
And speaking of Extra Mario Bros, I think it's possible to get to the final boss by getting 5 keys instead of 8 keys. I can't remember correctly, because it's been a few years (2012, I think) since I last played that game.
It's not possible to fight the real final boss (huge Bowser) if Mario only collects 5 to 7 keys. It will only lead you to a different version of Area 5, and you'll be sent back to collect the rest of the keys, so it doesn't count as beating the game.
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