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Very nice run. It can't have been easy to optimize utility weapons like the Concrete Shot with ammo management and refills and weapon swaps that always cost time. It's nice to see that you redid a number of stages multiple times until you were satisfied with the routes in them.
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Is it there a way to disable this? It's not really a problem in TASing, but it's a bit unfortunate when it happens in real-time runs since it pauses the emulator for a brief period of time. The window for a double click is quite wide, so I find it can happen accidentally pretty easily.
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mklip2001 wrote:
With that Stage 1 room, I was hoping that you could shoot Frank while still jumping towards the platform... it would save you the time for the damage animation if it worked. Not a big savings in any case.
So apparently the transition at the end of the room works properly if you do not take damage from the Frankenstein; I was able to save 36 frames with the strat you mentioned.
My initial idea for the room was to reverse damage boost off the Frankenstein so that I wouldn't have to waste time doing two jumps in order to kill him, but I guess the i-frames from the damage may have been what was delaying the transition(which is strange because i-frames last way longer than the amount of time that the transition was being delayed).
Thank you for pointing this out. I will include this in possible improvements as well.
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Nice strat. I was able to save at least 20 frames with it. I just tried hex editing it into the run, but as I feared, the game's massive amounts of lag cause desyncs at every turn, so I don't think it would be worth pursuing a change this early on in the run.
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mklip2001 wrote:
At 1:30ish in the encode, is it possible to jump, shoot the baddie with a charged Normal shot, then switch and charge to Bat, and start flying to the platform? I think you'd have enough time to change to a bat before you fall too far, but I don't know if the lag from the Normal shot and coin makes it slower.
Oh I forgot to mention this room in the submission text, but I will add it now because it is rather strange. The trigger that ends that room behaves a bit oddly: you have to reach a certain point(which is somewhere in the middle of the Frankenstein) and then Kid Dracula will pull his cape some number of frames later(close to a second I think) regardless of what you do afterwards. If you do anything to get rid of the Frankenstein or reverse damage boost off of him or something, you are just wasting time because it delays reaching the trigger(at which point you would still have to wait that second or so afterwards), so it was fastest to just fly past the trigger and then take damage to remove bat form while waiting for the transition to actually activate.
mklip2001 wrote:
STAGE 7
Good trick with the boss to fire at point-blank range. He seems to have a very weird delay before he starts his second phase. Is there any way you can manipulate him to stay low on the ladder so that you stay point-blank and fight the second phase like the first?
Not while still being able to damage him. If you aren't on the ladder he will immediately climb all the way to the top and wait there indefinitely for you to follow him. I tried a lot of ways to get the first couple of shots a little bit closer then climb the ladder but nothing seemed to work out. You can't change directions mid-air while in shooting animation, so any attempts to fire more shots from a closer range just made me land too low on the ladder to have any kind of timely follow up shots.
Thanks for all the questions and comments. Now that you mention it I remember reading your signature sometime ago but did not realize this was the same game in it; I only actually heard of this game for the first time a few weeks ago when StarvinStruthers mentioned to me he wanted to make a TAS of it. I am glad to hear there are people with nostalgia for it who enjoyed the run.
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The game actually restricts you from using specific mobility upgrades in rooms the developers thought would be trivialized by them, like bat/upside-down in the floating platform room of stage 5, or upside-down in the gravity strip room of stage 8.
The transformation time of the bat is almost completely negated when used in front of the gravity strips though(aside from a few lag frames).
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From Movie Rules: The US ((U)) versions are generally preferred over the Japanese ((J)) version due to the use of English language, which is easier to understand for the general audience. Keep in mind that time gained solely through basic ROM differences will be discounted for the purpose of comparison.
I also figured using the US Version in Kid Dracula, where bosses/enemies have extra hp, was comparable to "selecting the hardest difficulty", which is preferred by TASvideos as well. However, rereading it, it says, "unless the only difference between difficulty levels is enemy/boss hit points, in which case the easiest difficulty levels are preferred in the interest of speed," so I suppose this doesn't necessarily apply.
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I am curious, do people think that a true 100% run is unique enough from the 100% "best ending" run to merit publication along side it as a different category, or that it is similar enough that it should be compared to it for obsoletion/rejection? The 8 Maverick stages are essentially the same, but the end game is almost completely different. You visit Vile in his secret stage, fight different Doppler stage bosses, and use the saber in conjunction with the hyper chip in the boss rush/Sigma fights (here is a real-time run for reference).
The reason I ask is because I have interest in making a true 100% run, but wouldn't want to obsolete the "best ending" run since I think that category is a bit more entertaining.
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I think this movie should ultimately be a direct obsoletion to the shoryuken TAS since prior to this TAS, the shoryuken route was believed to be the fastest any% route for the game, and the submission notes include data that shows where all of the time is saved/lost on each stage in the buster upgrade route compared to the shoryuken route.
The only problem with this is that then there is no shoryuken TAS on the site for the time being, but the true 100% run(with Zero parts) will fix this issue when it is finished.
If the shoryuken run remains a separate "100%" branch for now, would it be possible to switch it after the 100% run is submitted so that the buster upgrade run obsoletes the old shoryuken TAS and the 100% w/ Zero parts run obsoletes the low% with Zero parts run?
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Well the current "100%" run is not technically 100% since it does not collect the Zero parts. This run and the run that collects the Shoryuken are both simply any%.
Since this makes the two existing branches very similar to each other, I am now working on true 100% run that collects the Zero parts in addition to the Shoryuken and its prerequisites. At that point, if people wanted to keep X2 down to two branches, I imagine a true 100% run could obsolete the "best ending, no upgrades" run(since both would be intended to be the antithesis of the any% route at the time).
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Overall, it seems to me like there is a misconception among RTA communities as to what TASes are "supposed" to provide, and what TASvideos looks for in their submissions. The goal of this TAS was to be a run that showcases the "100% Map Completion" category with execution far beyond the limits of human capabilities. This site does have a tier for runs like that, the Vault, but only if they are any% or 100% runs. The primary objective of runs published on this site is to provide entertainment, so if the majority of voters do not find a run entertaining due to its similarity to other categories, then it can be rejected on that basis whether or not it holds a record in said category. That said, just because a run is not published on TASvideos does not mean it is not a legitimate TAS which accomplished the goals it was intended to. I think having a board for TASes on deertier is a great idea.
Conversely, things like the concept of "speed/entertainment tradeoffs" are often laughed at by RTAers. Just because something is done in RTA does not mean it should be done in a TAS on this site, and just because something isn't done in RTA doesn't mean it shouldn't be done in a TAS on this site. A prime example is the Mega Man X3 100 "Best Ending" Press Disposer Route category on this site. As arbitrary a category as they come(certainly more so than "100% Map Completion"), but the perfect alternative to any%, because it showcases all of the game's content that the any% run does not. In the RTA community, this category is seen as a meme where you intentionally do things to beat the game slower for no reason.
As for the copying of inputs, and admittedly I know next to nothing about TASing Super Metroid so anyone can correct me if I'm wrong, but I would assume that in a game as competitive as Super Metroid, the early parts which are identical across all categories would have been optimized to the point where they could be compared to "frame wars", and from what I understand these are the parts that Nymx copied from Cpadolf. In that regard I can understand Nymx's decision to do so, but I think that even copying things which have no impact on the speed of the run completely verbatim, like the playarounds while waiting for Ridley to appear and during a lot of the Crocomire fight, is going a bit too far. If you like some trick he does and want to show it in your run, then I would cite him on that specifically, but other than that I would come up with your own material.
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Oh I see. No because you are stationary for the frames which you are still able to input dash.
Edit: Actually you pretty much described double-kicking. Since you can wall jump anywhere between 0-7 pixels away from a wall, sometimes you start with a non-dash jump from right up against the wall to give yourself extra height(while not moving away from the wall too quickly) then do a dash wall jump when you reach the end of the wall jump range. It was used in the exact scenario you described in phase 1 of the first Moth fight in this run.
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Well after obtaining the leg parts, you have to input the dash after the jump if you are wall jumping from further away from the wall and not already in dash speed, otherwise air dash will override the jump.
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For ground jumps, the dash must be input either on or before the frame of the jump. For wall jumps, you have something like 5 frames where you can input dash after the jump to still get dash speed.
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Heidman wrote:
At the end of Hunter Stage 2, would it not be faster to hit the last enemy with wheel as it comes out faster and kills instantaneously? I know you can shot the mine earlier but it is not an instant kill.
You can kill him faster with wheel or silk shot, but then you would have to wait around longer for a pink charge to take out 2 of neo-serges' cannons with charged mine before the fight starts. How early you start this charge is the only thing that matters here, so mine is used.
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Here's a new WIP up through 8 mavs:
Link to video
The most notable discoveries were a new Centipede fight strat which uses silk shot and tier 4 buster shots to avoid an otherwise mandatory teleport to save nearly a second, as well as passing underneath the crystal at the end of Snail's stage which was previously thought to be impossible on BizHawk(and console) and saves around 2 seconds.
Some other improvements over the published run(but already known) were skipping the Crystal Snail miniboss and performing double charged hits on Bubble Crab. There is still more experimenting I want to do with the Crab fight like seeing if it is possible to start with charged buster (or even a glitched t4 buster shot like I did on Centipede).
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Oh I see, I figured camera lock might prevent a zip from saving time in Moth stage. Thank you for showing me all of these parrot14green.
From what I was experiencing, it seems like soon after 5 pieces of junk are out, the game instantly goes from 60fps to 30, then back to 60 after he transitions. So I think the only way to reduce lag is by delaying when the first lag frame occurs. Here is the .bk2 if you wanted to mess with it Fractal.
It is still possible to zip through crystals on BizHawk(and console), but the only zip that saves time(the one through the 2nd to last crystal) results in you getting crushed as far as I have been able to tell. Somehow inaccurate emulators are able to end up safely on the other side, but it depends on how the crystal is oscillating back and fourth; sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. So perhaps if the zip coincides with the leftmost point of oscillation, it could maybe be possible to do it on BizHawk? I have no idea how to manipulate this, but it seems like the crystals oscillation pattern is determined at some point much earlier in the stage(at least as far back as the miniboss room).
Edit: Actually it seems like based on your movement it is possible occasionally have consecutive gameplay frames. The bk2 gets the last hit of Moth phase 1 on frame 35119. The earliest I've been able to get it so far is 35115.
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So after doing some testing, I've arrived at the conclusion that it is in fact faster to forgo acquiring the shoryuken by about 5 seconds on BizHawk using a US rom(the JP version saves 3.6s less than US because because of faster text, and less accurate emulators would save more time because the no-shoryuken route has more lag and saves more time from the large crystal zip in Snail's stage).
Here is the WIP of the run I am working on.
Link to video
The full route through the Maverick stages will be Sponge -> Gator -> Stag -> Moth -> Centipede -> Snail -> Ostrich -> Crab. The reasoning for using this route over Sponge -> pure weakness order is twofold: this route targets the X-hunters on the mini map immediately whereas weakness order dodges them which saves around 8 seconds, and it allows you to kill the giant fish in Crab's stage with charged Sonic Slicer which saves approximately 10 years of lag on BizHawk(and I believe opens the gate sooner as well). The only aspect of this route that really loses time over weakness order is not having bubbles on the Stag fight, which only saves 97 frames (81 from the fight and 16 from a charged strike chain through the preceding hallway) thanks to a new buster strat FractalFusion and I just came up which takes better advantage of Stag's i-frame resets. It also might lose a couple frames from not having bubbles for the minibosses on Moth's stage.
Also, something I think parrot14green or someone would be interested in messing with, there is a recently discovered glitch with Giga Crush that allows you to rapidly zip downward after getting stuck inside a wall. Combining this with Crystal Hunter zipping may be able to yield a potential time save somewhere in a 100% run(perhaps towards the end of Moth's stage).
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An ice sled breaking (regardless of where it breaks) advances the sequence by 12 values. Wall dust sprites are the best way to manipulate RNG mid boss fight, but killing an enemy advances the sequence by 1 value as well (which is usually used to change the boss's first pattern).
There are a lot of other things that advance the sequence by more than 1 value in 1 frame, but these are things that X does not have direct control over. For instance, each time Bospider spins a web, 10 advances are made, and each time Storm Eagle creates a dust sprite from flapping his wings on the ground, 1 advance is made. There are many others, but these are not particularly useful in TASing.
ALAKTORN wrote:
If the X-axis position does not change, why is the game aware of how off-position you are? Sometimes it walks 1 frame to the left, sometimes to the right.
It doesn't really make sense to be honest. X attempts to walk to the center (if he is in the left half of the 3 pixel range, he will walk right; if he is in the right half, he will walk left), then realizes he doesn't need to move anywhere.
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The walk(i.e. the readjustment to the center of the room) is avoided by ending the fight within a range of 3 pixels at the center of the room. He will still enter the "walk" animation for 1 frame regardless, but his x-axis position does not change.
The better question is how was it even possible to get six perfect possible patterns in a row. This was a strike of pure luck of where the TAS happened to be in the RNG sequence at the time it got to Bospider.
If you search for "s0" in this table, you will find all of the values in that offer a straight drop for Bospider. They are not very common since they require all 8 crossovers in the web to be in either the left/middle positions or middle/right positions(so that one vertical thread is completely isolated). i23812 was the best pattern around the time the first web pattern was to be determined (the next straight down drop was not for another 224 frames), and i24153 was the best pattern around the time of the second web pattern (the next straight down was not for another 84 frames). You only have time to create maybe 20-30 dust sprites at best in between web patterns, and each dust sprite only advances the RNG sequence by one additional value. Breaking an extra ice sled was used to advance the sequence by 12 values at one point, but this requires you to have had time to place to preceding sled on the ground and have it slide into Bospider(because you can charge while that sled it out); it can't be used in every situation.
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Thanks for the comments everyone.
@JoshButro
Next is X2 any%, which may be on the cusp of undergoing a major route change(I'm still testing this, but it may turn out that obtaining the shoryuken isn't actually faster after all).
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Here's a video that shows all of the ways you can skip the Crystal Snail miniboss on both BizHawk and Snes9x 1.43.
On BizHawk, it can be skipped using charged speed burner, uncharged speed burner, charged strike chain, charged silk shot, uncharged sonic slicer, or ride armor lunge. On Snes9x 1.43, it can only be skipped with uncharged speed burner, charged strike chain, uncharged sonic slicer, or ride armor lunge (charged silk shot and charged speed burner do not work).
The skip seems to occur when you do 1 or more of 3 things: move through the section near the camera lock trigger more quickly(charged speed burner, charged strike chain, ride armor lunge), cause enough lag through it(uncharged sonic slicer), or create enough sprites while moving through it(uncharged sonic slicer, charged silk shot). I have no idea why charged speed burner and charged silk shot are the only methods that don't work on Snes9x 1.43 when neither of them involve causing lag.
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exileut wrote:
Is it still considered 100% if you don't collect every upgrade?
No.
exileut wrote:
Are the health and weapon bars supposed to be different lengths?
Yes. 28 ammo and 32 hit points (with all 8 hearts)
Thanks 4n6. As for X2 100%, I am not sure if this is something I will TAS since it is so similar to Any% aside from the optional bosses which are already shown in Fractal's low% best ending run. However, if getting only the buster upgrade turns out to be the fastest route for any%, I think 100% would be a nice alternative category.
