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Thanks for improving this! Lag-hunting can be quite a chore and it's impressive that you were able to reduce so much of it throughout the run.
I remember this TAS as: "so many ideas that feel like they should work, and would be really cool if they did, but they didn't." I watched the run and listed those ideas below that I either tried or thought I tried, just so they are documented somewhere for those in the future who may be able to figure more out than either of us were. (Times are from the youtube encode.)
1:36 - I remember trying this and failing, but it would be awesome if the top level was somehow grabbable between the two spike ceilings. I know you can end up in that state by falling from above, but I wasn't able to get it to work jumping from below. It would be a nice shortcut if somehow that were possible.
2:35 - I never did figure out the mechanics of why falling through the stairs is possible here (which will lead to a question later).
2:49 - Similar to 1:36, though I don't remember if I tried it here, and it wouldn't save very much time if it were possible. The ledge is higher here anyway than the previous example.
3:56 - I wonder if there is a better spot to take this damage (if it's possible to avoid this hit without losing time), since being pushed to the right does not help when you just need to climb. Maybe you can get hit by the bird at 4:16 around where you get the sword (which would only help if you could break the chest with the sword first, then get hit). Otherwise any scenario where pushing to the right is the direction you're going.
4:43 - If these stairs are similar to level 3, maybe you could fall through them here and save a bit of time? I tried here but wasn't able to make it happen since I didn't fully understand how that glitched worked previously.
5:35 - I don't remember trying this, but if you can stand on the rocks the boss throws (unsure) and if a rock would persist during his explosion, you might be able to double-jump from it and kill yourself on the spikes to fade the level out quicker. Hmm, just unpaused and it looks like the rock disappears when the boss starts dying, bummer. I wonder if you can wallsnag like in SMW. I must really wish this timesaver was possible to be reaching this hard for it :]
7:07 - I remember trying this, and succeeding, but that it didn't save time (which confused me at first). I was able to get onto the top ledge here and walk all the way to the right without having to stop for the spikes in that one spot, but since I believe it required a "grab the ledge and pull yourself up" animation, it ended up being slower (and plus you'd need to take damage somewhere else).
7:52 - If these stairs are like level 3's, and that mechanic is figured out, then a slight amount of time might be saved by falling through here (maybe not though, due to potentially needing to swing the sword to make this happen).
<Swordless> Go hug a tree, you vegetarian (I bet you really are one)
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Loved it! Areas 4 and 7 especially were very fun to watch. I liked the sliding gimmick in Area 6. I liked the dancing in Area 2. The spinning on the final boss looked a lot funnier than I thought it would. Pretty much all your stylistic choices resonated well with me. All the little things really showed. Only bummer is that the alternate area 7 route wasn't found to be possible, but having to go through the level created quite a few entertaining moments anyway.
"Enemy Below" I saw that capitalization :]
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Here's a song/video I made about some older two-player simultaneous games. It also features video from several TASes submitted here.
Link to video
You can click CC for lyrics since I'm going kind of fast, and many here don't have English as their first language. Most of my videos support this feature, though I'm not sure if it's available with an embedded video like this (Edit: seems to work from here, too).
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Warp wrote:
The TASing community fought for years to get rid of the label of TASes being "fake" and "hoaxes", and stupid accusations that the games were hacked and the videos sped up or edited. After many years the TASing community slowly and painfully got the widespread acceptance that it deserved as a legitimate form of speedrunning and entertainment.
When we start editing the video footage, cutting out parts of it, we just open ourselves to be accused of cheating by making the runs look faster than they really are via editing the video footage.
And as I already commented, if we start cutting the "boring" cutscenes, why stop there? Who decides what's boring and what isn't? Why don't we start cutting also other "boring" parts of the run that "disrupt fluidity"?
You have brought up these points before, but I feel they are not as applicable as they were when TASing is in its earlier years.
Whether removing cutscenes, showing only the highlights of a run, maybe removing lag, adding in other effects (Mega Man magnet beam solidification is a good example) - if it makes for an entertaining movie, and there's demand for it, then why not? There will always be people who cry foul no matter what the video is doing. Why are these people's opinions so important to change, or worry about? As long as the intent is displayed in the video, I don't see why this is a problem.
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Swordless Link wrote:
I noticed the no vote count went up by 1 after your post. XD
Credit where it's due: this is very slightly more subtle than (but equally inappropriate as) your bullying behavior in your previous submission's thread. Kudos(?).
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rog wrote:
I could go rate one of your movies 0 if you really want proof that it's possible do something that you think is unreasonable.
Go for it, rate all my TASes zero. Coincidentally, that is the amount of fucks I will give.
(Threatening is a tactic usually associated with bullies, btw)
<Swordless> Go hug a tree, you vegetarian (I bet you really are one)
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rog wrote:
Are you sure?
rog, thank you for identifying yourself so quickly as someone to not waste time debating things with. It will save me time in the future.
Fabian-style sign-off,
JXQ
<Swordless> Go hug a tree, you vegetarian (I bet you really are one)
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rog wrote:
You don't need to keep your ratings secret if they aren't entirely unreasonable.
There's no such thing as an objectively unreasonable rating - all ratings are subjective. You're attacking individuals who have given ratings that you feel to be unreasonable. The person who gave the rating clearly doesn't feel it's unreasonable. Why is your feeling more important?
And if anyone is a victim, it's the one getting multiple ratings 0 ratings based on things that have nothing to do with the run.
It sounds like you're saying it's worse to be criticized than it is to censor someone's critique, because you don't like it. Why is your preference of criticism more important that someone else's ability to voice theirs?
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Back when movie ratings were introduced, there was no option to make them public. When that option was later introduced, everyone was public by default until they marked their votes as private. When this happened, a user saved my public-for-only-a-few-hours voting page, and later proceeded to ask me questions about some of my ratings. Due to this harassment, I eventually removed all my ratings. So I can identify with the victims (yes, victims) here.
However, this behavior isn't confined only to this movie or community. The OoT crowd doesn't have a monopoly on stupid, despite its best efforts. You can also see this pressuring in other submission threads where people ask who voted no, or suggest consequences for doing so. It's been happening for at least as long as I've been around.
This behavior ultimately encourages people to remain secretive with their ratings in the long run, which is the opposite of what I assume SL was trying to accomplish by outing someone's individual rating (aside from the obvious trolling he's always trying to accomplish). Perhaps I've already rated this movie in an effort to cancel out the effect of the bullying.
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I'm about half way through right now and it's been a very fun watch.
As much as I hate that damn snake, the level in world 3 where you play as him was one of my favorites so far. I also thought another part of world 3 where you kept the spider from a bonus stage to spit one web before dismounting and clearing an enemy with it was very clever.
Did you always get both Kongs after beating a bonus level? I don't remember that but it's been a while since I've played this.
Thanks for making the run guys!
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It is encouraging to see such a topic debated in a way that can really open people's eyes to it without turning them off from the discussion altogether. The pro-feminism side certainly had a platform to make their voice heard, and it's unfortunate they began selectively quoting those whom they were debating and claiming personal attacks were being hurled against them. However, this just highlighted the other side's ability to keep their composure, continue to debate against that person's claims, and leave no stone unturned.
I hope this thread not only causes people to think about what feminism means, but also learn the difference between the good and bad ways to debate a subject which is potentially controversial and emotionally charged. Bravo to moozooh, Warp, and IronSlayer in particular. Thanks for helping to make this such a unique community (how many other internet forums would have kept things this reasonable?).
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Spider-Waffle wrote:
It still baffles me to this day why this community doesn't agree with this and I face such violent opposition for doing the later.
I would guess that it's because you ask open-ended questions that you could easily answer yourself with basic testing/timing, but you don't. The "explanation or valid proof" is right there for you to find - why don't you go find it? The "investigat[ion]" you are claiming to do is more just asking others to satisfy your own lazy curiosity. Then you claim to be the victim of "violent opposition" when others don't do the work for you in order to validate/disprove your claim. And this is a pattern you've shown in other game threads, so people come to expect it from you more and more, and have learned to dismiss you more quickly.
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Thanks for posting such a detailed submission text explaining this TAS - I think it helps a lot of the people who don't follow this game very well to understand it and perhaps enjoy it better. Seriously - even though I dislike your attitude and think you make TASes of boring games, I think this submission text is extremely good and helpful for those who want to watch this but are otherwise a casual fan of this game.
Anyway, you told me to vote no on this, so I am delighted to honor that request.
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I think of L+R or U+D as physically possible via the following method:
When the system polls the controller for input, this takes a finite amount of time to read. A god-like player could press left, then right, so fast that both register to the polling service for that frame, even though they weren't physically pressed simultaneously.
I don't know inner workings of electronics, so maybe there is a flaw in that somewhere, but it made sense to me and stopped any questioning I may have had about the legitimacy of U+D/L+R/etc.
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Dada wrote:
Complaining about being "friend zoned" is pretty childish, I'd say. If someone doesn't want to have sex with you, what does that mean? That you should stop being friends? If that's true, then that speaks a great deal about the way you view people—not as equals whose companionship you enjoy and feelings you take into account, but just as people you're eventually just going to want to have sex with. If you don't view people as more than that, that's your loss.
You're demonizing sex and someone's craving for sex with these word choices. If someone is looking for a relationship that includes sex, it doesn't mean it's the only criteria, nor is it any better or worse than any other criteria until you placed judgement on it. If someone else doesn't want sex, then following that relationship isn't going to be fulfilling for them.
I agree that complaining about being friend-zoned is childish, but for a different reason than you. Instead of settling for an unfulfilling relationship just so you don't seem shallow to observers like yourself, the mature thing to do is to respect yourself enough to move on and find a relationship that is what you're really looking for.
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I don't think this games makes for an entertaining TAS. The graphics are poor enough that even I notice it as a detriment, the music was an afterthought, and the control was crap. The levels are mostly trivial, with the end of level 5 being the only semi exciting part. The pace of the game is achingly slow.
And somehow the NES version is worse in every aspect. Worse graphics, worse sound, terrible framerate which I imagine leads to terribler controls. Still slow, still almost exclusively unexciting.
If this run hadn't been done way back in the day, would it be accepted now? I think it's at least possible this would have been considered a bad game choice. So for that reason I am in favor of obsoleting the NES run. In my perfect world, this run would also obsolete itself and we would just have the SNES movie, which still isn't that fun to watch but it's much more bearable.
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I watched the updated run, and although it was a bit repetitive, I still would vote for backtracking allowed.
I believe this section is more prone to backtracking than the average part of this theoretical TAS:
The goal sphere won't work for getting secret exits (25 exits are secret). Not sure about bosses dying though (Big Boo is a secret exit, yes?)
The 25 regular exits of these same levels would often be very similar to the secret exit, so you're actually skipping some repetitive play by glitching the normal exit
The overworld maps are often more spread out than the special zone is, making backtracking less appealing in other areas
I also find the route planning to be a fascinating part of this kind of run. That is more of a technical thing though, and a more casual viewer probably wouldn't care as much.
The restriction of "don't use start-select" or something with an equivalent effect seem to be just trying to make this run more like a theoretical no-yoshi run. I would prefer to wait for a separate run for that, whenever it comes along. Each one will have its own distinct flavor.
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bahamete wrote:
..."all out" doesn't really mean so, and we have to draw a line somewhere.
IMO "all-out" means use all available glitches. That's what was done in the new short glitched run that jumps to the The End screen. No restrictions needed on which glitches to allow. However, a "96 exit" run adds the additional separate restriction of "all exits + beat Bowser", which will more define the boundaries of the run.
"All exits" to me is well-defined - get one of {goal sphere/gate/dead boss/key/switch/yoshi wings} for each of the original 96 exits. "Beat Bowser" is a bit more tough to define exactly with these glitches, but I feel like as long as you see the entire ending, starting with Mario and the Princess, the text, fireworks, etc., that it will be good enough.
SMV example in Special World
This SMV makes me think two things:
1) This run would be extremely entertaining and surprising.
2) I think an updated "no yoshi all-exits" run would also be well received because it would be so different from the all-exits run with these glitches (yet still entertaining).
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If you decide to go all-out with the glitches, and there ends up being demand or inspiration for a lower glitch full run after it's finish (which seems like it would be received favorably - compare to the recent Sonic 1 low-glitch submission), it sounds like you could do so very cleanly with just a "No Yoshi" restriction.
(We also have the small-only run to show a lot of the other parts of the game without heavy glitching in the mean time.)
<Swordless> Go hug a tree, you vegetarian (I bet you really are one)
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