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Attempt at a quick overview:
1: Read Only Mode
- Will play the movie back without changing input.
- Loading a savestate from the movie will fast forward/rewind to that point.
2: Recording Mode (Not Read Only.)
- Loading a savestate from the movie will start recording from that point.
- Wherever the movie is stopped, that is where the input file will be cut off.
- You can lose progress if you hit movie stop if you don't stop at your furthest progress.
-You should always hit movie stop at the final frame before you quit/close or the input file may not stop at the latest point.
-In either mode, pressing shift+8 will switch to the other mode.
-Make backups often if you are just getting started, it's pretty easy to accidentally overwrite progress.
- Make sure you have our versions of the emulators you can get at
http://www.bluetoaster.net/emu/all.htm
Start with FCEUX or SNES9x (or possible Gens), they are the most stable.
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The groundwork is as follows.
1: Routing -
What places to go in what order?
Melismatically wrote:
Put Retreat on a shoulder button, use it without PP, and enter a door, and you can be teleported strange places. For instance, you can skip most of both Lighthouses, including the part where you recruit Mia if that strikes your fancy.
This is a great place to start. Figure out how much can be skipped. I feel that you will probably need all four characters or you are just handicapping yourself.
How do you get to the end of the game fastest?
2: Minimum Completion Conditions
What is the minimum level, djinn combination, and equipment the final boss can be beaten with. Since the RNG is very predetermined, the optimal scenario in each fight will be a given tree of attacks. You will not be able to manipulate perfect misses and enemy attack choices.
Even if the final boss fight is slow, the lowest level, lowest djinn, minimal equipment scenario will be close to fastest.
Are there any other bosses that will cause limitations on the leveling conditions up to a certain point?
These two things are the bulk of route planning. To test minimal completion conditions, take an end game file with max djinn, overwrite the stats in memory for testing, and just turn off the djinn you don't want to "have"
If you need some help with simple memory overwrites, just ask. I would like to help you to spend your time testing as efficiently as possible, as it means the run will be produced sooner.
If you can complete all of that, we can discuss the more technical aspects of performing the run. Essentially you need a plan before you get started on a long RPG run like this.
I can detail the optimal way to skip texts later, but without proper planning you will become increasingly more suboptimal beginning at the first random fight. You may need to spend one turn in a fight to increase the distance to the next fight. That will influence the quality of the run a lot is how well you are able to plan fights away. The other part is how well you set up the RNG for a boss fight.
Sacred Feathers will be helpful in setting up quite lengthy periods with no monster encounters.
I'm sorry if I'm being a bit demanding, but if you want to undertake such a long run, I would hope that you would want to do the run to the best of your capabilities. I will try to offer some help with the portions that will cause you problems (The RNG.), but the plan for the run needs plotted before that is of any use.
Anything allowing you to monitor the RNG and the results it produces will require a pretty significant investment at this point in time.
If you have anything in particular that would help you better test methods, I would be glad to help. Altering bytes to produce stats is where you should start testing as stated.
Skim through the previous posts again, I've detailed some other thoughts you may or may not have read.
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It's about that time again.
http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/597817408/To%20Doros.smvhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KJeLXY86ikk
Nitrodon's pathing script was modified to brute force various RNG outcomes walking between two places.
It had been found that more RNGs pass when less enemies are on the map. One may notice the ridiculously low amount of enemies on the screen between Serpent and Dragon. The bot along with some manual input altering by me at various intervals, used about 50k rerecords in this segment. The end result was that roughly 25 frames were spent advancing the RNG by about 350 more than average between Serpent and Dragon. I don't think it would have been possible without the bot.
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It's a timing issue. If you're too close you will get pushed back in like 3 second intervals or something. Once a bomb hits him he is stunned. As soon as he is stunned, if you keep him stunned by hitting him at appropriate intervals, he won't push you back.
Fire the first bomb, stop for a bit, let it hit him, start moving forward and keep hitting him.
It seems my run will get behind your console run pretty soon. Be sure to check out some of the notes earlier in this thread about later levels. Note that it is possible to skip the screws in Storm Valley with a well placed wall jump, I would really like to see this in your run.
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Azorae wrote:
We just need to see which route of all three takes the least in-game time.
We're looking for the route that PASSES the most in game time, right? It isn't plausible to get to the bridge the day before.
If anyone wants to try clipping into Hyrule Castle at night by megaflipping off a skeleton, this would save a lot of time in the run, but I was informed this is probably not possible.
I will continue discussing assuming this isn't possible.
Slowking wrote:
So the common point in the 4 suggested runs is getting to the magic bean patch. At that point there are two variables which need to be considered, real time spent, and game time spent.
The current WIP by Swordless, Bloob, and AKA wastes roughly 15-25 seconds of run time because not enough game time was able to be passed. I did not count the time spent collecting 40 rupees.
If we directly compare this run to proposed route 1 or 2. (Exactly the same time spent not passing game time, very similar in run time.)
2. Zoras River first, Kakariko second
- get sword and 60r (60r)
- buy shield and deku stick (10r)
- do old forest escape
- get to zoras river and buy magic beans (0r)
- get to Kakriko and get bottle
- get to lake hylia through hyrule field
- get 80r from bushes and plant bean (80r)
- fly to castle town and buy Hylia Shield (0r) (you won't have to wait as long for the flight because getting the magic bean takes gametime)
- go foreward in time
We get that more in game time is spent traversing to Zora's River and the Magic Bean Guy, and more time is spent planting the bean and acquiring 80 rupees. This route would probably require no wasted run time at Lake Hylia. MrGrunz spends about 20-25 seconds in Zora's River to collect beans. Add this to the amount of time spent traversing/from Zora's River This makes the route late for the optimal owl ride by about 20-30 seconds or so.
If it is possible to get past the boulders 5 seconds faster, that will be significant.
Is it possible to megaflip off a skeleton over the Lake Hylia gate instead of climbing the ladder? I think this would save a few seconds.
3. Through Zoras domain
- get sword and 60r (60r)
- buy shield and deku stick (10r)
- do old forest escape
- get to Kakariko and get bottle
- get to zoras river and buy magic beans (0r)
- go up Zoras river into Zoras domain and somehow glitch into the warp to lake hylia (that would have to be discovered first)
- get 80r from bushes and plant bean (80r)
- fly to castle town and buy Hylia Shield (0r)
- go foreward in time
At the point of Zora's River magic bean guy, is it faster to go back through Hyrule Field, or go through Zora's Domain? Assuming time doesn't pass in Zora's Domain, you will have to wait a much longer amount of game time at Lake Hylia. You will definitely get to Lake Hylia much earlier, but you will have a substantial amount of time to pass. Game time would not be spent while in Zora's domain.
If route 1 or 2 is late for the owl by x+1 seconds, and x amount of real time is not used to pass game time in Zora's Domain, then this route ends up faster. x is projected as about 20 seconds.
This could actually be faster if optimized. It's hard to tell.
4. Silver scale and ruto-bottle
- get sword and 80r (80r)
- buy shield and deku stick (30r)
- do old forest escape
- get to zoras river and buy magic beans (20r)
- go up Zoras river into Zoras domain
- get silver scale and dive through the warp to lake hylia (0r)
- get ruto bottle, bring it back to king zora and again dive to lake hylia
- get 80r from bushes and plant bean (80r)
- fly to castle town and buy Hylia Shield (0r)
- go foreward in time
This one splits the Kakariko time into Zora's River, Zora's Domain, Silver Scale, Grabbing the Bottle, and back into Zora's Domain.
Going up Zora's River spends game time, Grabbing the bottle spends game time. You cross Hyrule Field less, so I'm pretty sure you'll be waiting a long time at Lake Hylia.
If less time is spent in Zora's Domain and getting the Silver Scale than was spent in Kakariko Village, this will be the fastest route.
Conclusion: It depends directly on the amount of "non-game passing" time spent in Kakariko Village in route 1,2,3 vs the amount of "non-game passing" time in route 4 spent in Zora's Domain and collecting the Silver Scale.
I am pretty sure with the faster of route 1 or 2 you will be late by about x = 20 seconds for the owl at Lake Hylia. Compare this to x frames wasted not passing time in Zora's Domain in route 3. (Also around 20.) With route 4 you will wait a while, but that is because Hyrule field is not traversed. This isn't good or bad by itself.
Route 1,2,3
Transition out of Zora's River + Transition into Kakariko Village + Kakariko Village and Bottle + Transition out of Kakariko Village + Transition into Lake Hylia + (x seconds late for owl or x seconds wasted in Zora's Domain)
---compared to
Route 4
Transition into Zora's Domain + Zora's Domain + Silver Scale + Transition to Lake Hylia + Bottle Collection Message + Transition to Zora's Domain + Zora's Domain (and king) + Transition to Lake Hylia.
The one of those that spends the least time will most likely be the fastest. I feel like it wouldn't be too hard to test the second one and compare it to the already made first one. Playing the game for the Silver Scale wouldn't have to be done optimally, and talking to the king is half of it.
It's very possible I made a logical flaw in here somewhere, as I rewrote it multiple times. I hope laying out this methodology at least helps people to think about the problem more clearly.
It would do well to make a test run of the Zora's Domain and Silver Scale route to compare to the Kakariko Village route. If route 4 is tested, we could compare it to the theoretical best of routes 1,2,3.
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Vykan12 wrote:
1. B is held
2. A diagonal input (eg/ up-left) is done on one frame
3. A different diagonal input (eg/ down-left) is done the next frame
4. Alternate 2 and 3 until reaching a particular memory address.
local MemoryAddress = 0x02000000 -- in hex
local Value = 37 -- in decimal
-- EDIT: Yeah what nitsuja said.
while memory.readbyte(MemoryAddress) ~= Value do --loop until MemoryAddress == Value
--note this will only check every other frame as written.
joypad.set(1,{["B"]=true,["up"]=true,["left"]=true})
--controller 1, hit B, up, left on this frame
vba.frameadvance() -- advance one frame with the current buttons held.
joypad.set(1,{["B"]=true,["down"]=true,["right"]=true})
--controller 1, hit B, down, right on this frame
vba.frameadvance()
end
vba.pause()
while true do
vba.frameadvance()
end
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megamanenm wrote:
Finally! I didn't know I needed to download a modified version of VBA! So I downloaded VBA22 and figured out that I can't load savestates that weren't made during the recording. So the original problem is gone! Anyway I have a new problem, When I boot up VBA22 and I try to load a savestate, it freezes. So how do I fix that D:
I'm not sure if save states translate between the version you were using and the version you are now using.
If the savestate is not in the movie you're recording, don't load it unless you turn off the movie.
All savestates made within the movie are sort of "attached" to the movie. It takes a bit of getting used to. Make sure you backup your progress often or you might accidentally overwrite it while getting used to how it works.
If those first two points don't solve your problem, could you elaborate a bit more on exactly what you are trying to do?
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neskamikaze (on youtube) wrote:
I noticed on Waterway from the platform from the spikes you jump up on to the upper platform and then a second jump into the hole. I've found that with a slight bit of momentum you can make the jump from the spike platform directly on to the edge of the hole. That should save a slight bit of time.
I'll make note of it to check that, but I was pretty sure I tried that.
It is nearly impossible in this game to go back and redo progress without starting over unfortunately, so I have to go on.
Also, it was discovered later that going around the left of the final tree in Groog Hills is slower. You want to jump and barely grab the ledge from the right (not jumping from the higher platform.)
I will make more progress on this run soon enough.
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was0x wrote:
The list I'll do. The number in parenthesis is I don't decide to do.
1 Unlock all menu and place.(menu : Star Piece and Game , place : Yo'ster Isle and Grate Guy's Casino)
2 Collect all item and equip which you can get only once.
3 Open or hit once all treasure box.(include hidden treasure box)
I assume (2:) means that you will collect all '1 time' items. I don't think you should have to equip them.
For (3:) I think you should 'empty' all treasure boxes that can be emptied.
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Derakon wrote:
So...care to explain what just happened and why it works? That was pretty messed-up.
Yeah, having no knowledge of the game myself, could you explain exactly what occurs to make this beaten so quickly and why this should be impressive?
I don't really see anything going on except you going off the left side of the screen and onto the right.
It's just unclear from a viewing perspective exactly what I am watching.
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Clown Valley - I'm not going to look right now, maybe I forgot. Dropping a bomb almost always regains momentum as quickly as possible.
You may be able to pull off the Fog Route jump after enough practice, but you will die a lot trying. It's quite possible in real time, but I'm not sure how consistently you'll be able to do it. That was Zar's find not mine by the way.
I'm trying to keep pressing forward on Nitrodon and I's SNES 7th Saga run, but it's proving to be difficult. Once I finish that I will put most of my efforts towards Bomberman Hero.
University has me pretty busy lately unfortunately.
Here's a relatively new WIP I never posted. It goes up to Nitros.
http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/1523199368/At%20Nitros%20W3.m64
Maybe I'll work on this some more in my spare time once Winter Break rolls around. I have four midterms and four finals before then. =[
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As stated, theoretically on a real console you could interrupt the saving cycle between any single instruction. There would be one more or less instruction executed every chip cycle (on the order of microseconds). As it is the emulator gives LESS precision than the console does, but surely the instructions are at least executed in the correct order.
I think it's safe to say that SRAM corruption runs would only be more ridiculous if the emulator (in an attempt to better emulate the console) allowed a reset in between every cycle. This can be seen in inichi's demo run. On gocha's debugger he was able to reset between any cycle. This changed the run from something like 20 minutes to something like 5 minutes.
I really don't think an SRAM corruption glitch run should typically obsolete a legitimate basic category for the run, and I don't think there is any need to be concerned about that happening.
Chrono Trigger is a notable exception because the old run was so outdated. I still think inichi's test run should have been published alongside the glitched run, but that was his decision upon not submitting it. Essentially a 2 and a half hour legitimate, well-played run exists, so why keep the 4 hour run on the site.
If it gets to the point where 1 in 3 games has an SRAM corruption run, the rules may need to change, but for now I don't see any problems with publishing them alongside current runs.
As it stands, Pokemon Yellow glitched is still one of my favorite runs on the site right now.
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If someone wants to look for more dialog related bytes add them to these.
This will skip text boxes, but not forced sequences. (Discussion pauses with no text boxes aren't skipped.)
Light Skipping
while true do
text=memory.readbyte(0x7E0210)
if text<=3 then
snes9x.speedmode("normal")
else snes9x.speedmode("turbo")
end
snes9x.frameadvance()
end
Skips text boxes and overworld map only.
Medium Skipping
while true do
text=memory.readbyte(0x7E0210)
mapshopstatus=memory.readbyte(0x7E0009)
shopstatus=memory.readbyte(0x7E0068)
if (text>=3) or ((mapshopstatus==223) and (shopstatus~=0)) then
snes9x.speedmode("turbo")
else snes9x.speedmode("normal")
end
snes9x.frameadvance()
end
This one skips just about any time that mario's regular sprite isn't on the screen in an area. It doesn't skip Midas River type interactions.
Skips Text boxes, overworld map, most cutscenes where mario isn't on screen, and all shop interactions.
Heavy Skipping
while true do
text=memory.readbyte(0x7E0210)
mapshop=memory.readbyte(0x7E0009)
if (text>=3) or (mapshop==223) then
snes9x.speedmode("turbo")
else snes9x.speedmode("normal")
end
snes9x.frameadvance()
end
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Is there any chance that getting out of the room while the boss is loaded could lead to a method of performing a 1 hit kill on the boss, as was done with the dragon?
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Dromiceius wrote:
How about Gau in general? I don't remember clearly, but I don't believe any of the TASes to date have made any strategic use of his special ability. (i.e., I don't think we'll be seeing a TASer teach Gau a specific Rage.)
A minute or two is wasted in the current published run in order to get Gau a certain potential one hit kill rage. I forget which one exactly, but I just watched it a couple months ago.
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4 minutes saved in the first 19 minutes of the previous run.
If you keep up this pace, you could beat your previous wild warps run without wild warps.
(52:44 - 43:38 = 9:06)
There's your challenge.
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Options -> Display Configuration -> Automatic Frame Skipping on. (This will cause problems when encoding, but not when constructing a movie file.)
If this isn't the problem I'd suggest downloading a new emulator version and not messing with too many settings. http://www.bluetoaster.net/emu/all.htm#snes
If you don't have 1.43v13 you should get it regardless.
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Randil wrote:
Do you invite your friends over to watch the new Mega Man 2 TAS?
Essentially. I actually have about 3 friends I keep updated with choice material. 5 of us actually watched Bloobiebla's Ocarina of Time all temples run on a widescreen TV last year.
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Can you maintain a higher speed through use of this technique? Go down the slope and pause on and off to see if you can maintain a high speed. I'm not sure if this would be too useful.
Essentially anything could possibly be on this 16 frame counter including damage from enemies and spawning of things.
See if you can prevent things from spawning with this technique.
It seems impossible the way it is described to make things increment faster, only increment slower (or cease to increment.)
Those are the ideas that came to mind.
EDIT: Also possibly getting through cutscenes (bypassing game requirements) you aren't supposed to be able to. Though nothing in particular comes to mind.
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Mario Kart Double Dash. Stumbled upon this one on accident. Play a battle mode on Pipe Plaza. Get hit, run through a pipe shortly after getting hit and don't lose a balloon. My friends didn't particularly like this one. xD
Fladdermus wrote:
Golden Sun: the Lost Age. When walking from one room to another in that giant tree, I somehow ended up inside a wall about half a screen below the door. I have no idea how it happened or if it's possible to use it to your advantage in other places.
In case someone wants to try to recreate this later, are you referring to the tree towards the beginning in Golden Sun original, or is there something in the sequel that fits this description that I am forgetting about?
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Again it looks pretty good. If I had to guess you probably lost most of your time damage boosting ineffectively.
The best way to compare is to take computerbird's TAS and write down frame numbers at very specific points, and then compare these to your frame numbers.
If he includes the first cutscene start timing after the first cutscene closes. Maybe he's at 1000 and you're at 500. Subtract 500 from any frame numbers after that to see how long you took in a given short segment.
Comparing specific portions of your run vs. a published run is very important for seeing if you are optimizing a segment. You should do your best to match or beat the TAS time at every crucial point if you want to produce a publishable run.
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The movie was pretty decent for a first TAS.
I haven't watched or read up on Megaman X tricks in a while, but if I recall there's a lot of subtleties to the movement in order to gain frames. From observation. it seemed that the only obviously slow portion was your handling of vertical shaft wall jumping.
I would recommend taking a look at the published TAS and comparing portions to see what could be done faster. It's hard to see the possible improvements in this game unless you count frames.
Another thing for later is that you should always try to be interesting during wait times. The boss fight was very plain. This game is particularly difficult, because you have so many weapons available at no time expense.
Overall pretty decent. Try to look at the published run to see where you could be faster. If you ever plan to make a publishable run, you will have to be more entertaining during wait periods.
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Bag is 3546 frames (59 seconds) ahead at the end of the Fireman fight.
You lost most of your time not clearing green arrows in the tutorial, fighting 2 extra mettool/shockwave fights, and on the fireman battle itself.
