Posts for Kirkq

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Posted: 3/24/2012 2:50 PM
(Edited: 7/4/2012 11:47 PM)
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Kirkq
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Player (208)
Joined: 7/7/2006
Posts: 798
Location: US
Ani: "the ghost ship has about 310 rupees next to the ghost ship's triforce shard chest. You can leaf pump over to the ledge w/o killing the enemies. Collect the rupees, save&quit, then reload file and go back to ghost ship. Cafde does it in his J version run and he says it takes about 45 seconds to get 310 rupees, I'm pretty sure that's faster than us doing 101 rupee trick twice for 202 rupees" ^I need to incorporate this. Early Game: 1: Jump off watchtower. 2: Superswim to Northern Fairy Isle (Get 1000 Rupee Bag) 3: Superswim to Windfall, get 20 rupees, play battleship 8 times (0 + 100 + 150*6 = 1000)(20 rupees + 1000 rupees - 80 total to play - 80 for sail = 860) (Must beat high score every time: Shots = 16 down to 9) 4: Buy Sail (80), There's some silly glitch that will let you fall through the island into the water. I don't have the video handy. 5: Superswim to Dragon Roost, get wind waker, (superswim?), get wind requiem 6: Superswim to Bomb Island, get bottle ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pGF_fWTWiwo&t=6m20s ) 7: Superswim to Forest Haven, get FOREST WATER (20 min) 8: Superswim to Greatfish to trigger endless night (required to get bombs) 9: Superswim to Northern Fairy Isle, Enter nearby sub, Lantern Moblin + No Sword sends you to FF1 10: Trigger Tetra text at bottom of FF1 by stairs. Beat Forsaken Fortress 1 (FF1) (You get a sword here) Zombie Hover up to a heart by the sidle ledge (GlitchesAndStuff) (gossip stone -> searchlight -> hover, deku stick + fall damage) You cannot get directly to the sword or a cutscene will occur and you fall and die. 11: At Windfall, (superswim?), Let Tingle Out, Get Bombs (password skip: Klydestorm: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6hxlnk5D2TQ) 12: Superswim to Forest Haven, wind waker bag dive (Razor: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IFwxLCwyPtc) , zombie hover deku leaf 13: DRC deku leaf entry, zombie hover deku leaf bomb drop the teleportation pot, (there's a heart at the opposite door on the 2nd floor in one of the smaller pots), jump in now open pot, get grapple, Boss key skip (mugg: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UPgGmYH_nUo), clear dungeon (I don't think grapple is skippable yet, but it would be worth looking into) 14: Optional: Superswim to Bird's Peak Rock, grapple glitch, (or maybe superswim clip?) to get triforce chart (Klydestorm: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fnW-JfDVRHQ) 15: Optional: Place Din's Pearl (Northern Triangle Isle). 16: Forbidden Woods: FOREST WATER Boss Key skip (20 min later) (mugg: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E3II8YLuHEA) 17: Optional: Place pearls (Farore's Eastern). 18: Optional: Get Needle Rock Isle and Islet of Steel Charts. Late Game: 1: Acquire Jabun's Pearl 2: Superswim drown to get Needle Rock Isle, Get Chart (2) 3: Superswim clip to get Islet of Steel, Get Chart (3) 4: Finish Placing Pearls 5:* Beat Tower of the Gods (mugg: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ahqQnJMzRK4) 6:* Hyrule 1: Puzzle skip via Zombie Hover is possible but not viable, then this skip can be done without double magic: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J2VXn5f8r4g 6: Superswim to N. Triangle Isle and get Ballad of Gales (~1:30) 7: Tingle Island Decipher 2 charts from Islet of Steel and Bird's Peak Rock 7:* Superswim to FF2, wind waker dive in? 8:* Fight Phantom Ganon, get Skull Hammer (Skull Hammer skip viability needs investigated.) 9:* Helmrock superswim and zombie hover skip fight. (mugg: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qRIyXkBbF1E) 10:* Hyrule 2 11:* Ballad of Gales Superswim clip into Mother & Child Isles, get Fire and Ice arrows, Exit: abahbob: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Szebvd6DjSk. 12:* Ballad of Gales to Dragon Roost, Superswim drown to Fire Mountain, get Power Bracelet 13:* Superswim drown to Ice Ring Isle, get Iron Boots 14:* Superswim to Headstone, learn song 15: Superswim drown to Stonewatcher Island, Get Shard (1), Get Chart (4), Get 1000 rupees 16: Superswim to Tingle Island, Decipher 2 charts. 17:* Superswim to Dragon Roost, Get Medli 18:* Superswim to Headstone, beat Earth Temple (Boss key skip works without tuner (mugg): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VL8XAUJRePY) (Klydestorm: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aPQ7i_HYosE) 19:* Superswim to Gale Isle, learn song (This should be done earlier in the route.) (Abahbob: www.youtube.com/watch?v=feLqOXHg9Kk) 20: Superswim drown to Cliff Plateau Isles, Get Shard (2) 21:* Superswim to Forest Haven, WW Dive in (Bag Dive?), Get FOREST WATER, get Makar 22:* Superswim to Gale Isle, get hookshot, beat Wind Temple (mugg: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yNiJnC-kJwM) 23: Superswim drown to Seven-Star Isles, Get Shard (3) 24: Superswim drown to Overlook Island, Get Chart (5), Get 800 or less rupees. 25: HUGE Superswim to Diamond Steppe Island, Get Ghost Ship Chart 26: Superswim to Ghost Ship here I guess? Get Chart (6) 27: Superswim to Tingle Island (Decipher 2 charts) 28: Superswim drown to Outset, Get Shard (4), Savage Labyrinth, Get 600 rupees, Get Chart (7) (mugg: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R8Uo0Z8uy2Y ) 29: Superswim drown to Two-Eye Reef, Get Shard (5) 30: Superswim to Link's Oasis, Forest Water Clip, Get Chart (8) (mugg: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pDXdt6zZTDo) (Klydestorm: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sGmYJm9mQ4o) 31: Superswim drown to Greatfish Isle, Get Shard (6) 32: Superswim to Tingle Island, Decipher 2 charts 33: Superswim drown to Gale Isle, Get shard (7) 34: Superswim drown to S. Triangle Island, Get shard (8) 35:* Superswim to Tower of the Gods, Hyrule 3 36:* Go through warp at TotG to Hyrule. Go downstairs, fight darknuts, break barrier. 37:* Ganon's Tower Trials Skip (get above up left door, bomb clip, deku leaf to loading zone.) 38: Light Arrows Skip? (mugg: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JGV--6dk3t4 Boomerang needs to take less than about 1:30 to acquire, to be determined.) (Also this room: mugg: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Y9xItPbPHA) 38:* Puppet Ganon kill or skip via zombie hover keese heart drop. 39:* Fight Ganon. (mugg: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U5A2_ilyr7s) 40:* GG. Asterisk denotes required plot advancement in fairly rigid order. Things may be sprinkled in between though. My head hurts. This route may once again have blatant errors, I spent a lot of time with Ani constructing it, but didn't spend a lot of time reviewing. I think Forest Water Light arrows skip may actually not be viable. If you have to get Cabana forest water at any time before traveling to get Makar, the sidetracking has been calculated to be almost definitely slower. If you can get the first forest water during getting Makar, run it down 20 minutes for Cabana, then reget it after Cabana and still run down 20 minutes before Hyrule, it is viable but very difficult. If you have Needle Rock Isle Chart and Islet of Steel Chart and Bird's Peak Rock Chart, we speculate that tingle will want to decipher the Needle Rock Isle chart LAST, meaning he won't do it on our first trip. This actually causes some minor annoyance. Superswimming/ Superswim drowning will always be better than Ballad of Gales if you're swimming less than or equal to 3 grid squares away. Drowning takes 30 seconds, so does Ballad of Gales, so does superswimming 3 grid squares. If you drown, you start in the boat at the closest of the 9 points in the grid square you would get if you divided it into a 3x3. I was trying to remove Ballad of Gales when constructing this route, but I'm not sure if it's viable yet. This route should be within 5-10 minutes of optimal under the current knowledge, but the swimming distance can probably be more optimized. Things that need tested: 1: I need a time estimate for how long it takes to get in M&C without Ballad of Gales. We could very well skip ballad of gales if it's not more than a minute and a half. 2: Similarly how long does it take to get into Diamond Steppe Island without a hookshot by superswimming. 3: Can you actually get Needle Rock Isle and Islet of Steel charts before forest haven forest water timer runs out? 4: Probably more to be added here...
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Posted: 3/17/2012 12:01 AM
(Edited: 3/24/2012 2:24 AM)
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Kirkq
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Player (208)
Joined: 7/7/2006
Posts: 798
Location: US
Later game restrictions. Will edit more in later, feel free to add. Beat Forbidden Woods (skip boomerang) Visit Jabun Place 3 pearls Tower of the Gods (Get bow) Hyrule 1: solve triforce puzzle, go downstairs, pull master sword, fight enemies, get back on your boat and leave Must swim near Northern Triangle Island in boat sometime after Hyrule 1 to get warp song (Ballad) (The fight and song learning takes about 60 seconds.) Should do FF2 after Hyrule 1. Must get Skull Hammer in FF2 for switches in Earth Temple (and other reasons). Should get warp song to get fire/ice arrows? (Zombie hover method is slow. Superswim clip in is confirmed possible.) Must do FF2 to get fire/ice arrows at Mother and Child Isles (she won't give them before FF2). Must have fire/ice arrows to get power bracelet (Fire Mountain) and iron boots (Ice Ring Isle). Must have power bracelet to get into Earth Temple (Headstone Island) (and also Savage Labyrinth) (We may be able to superswim despawn into Earth Temple and postpone power bracelet.) Must enter headstone, then go to DR and talk to Medli, to start Earth Temple dungeon. Must beat Earth Temple to get song to open Wind Temple. Must skull hammer rock, learn song, go back to forest haven, get makar, and go back to Gale Island to start Wind Temple. Must have iron boots to get hookshot in wind temple and finish wind temple. Get 8 charts/8 shards (as detailed in above post) Go through warp at TotG to Hyrule. Go downstairs, fight darknuts, break barrier. Ganon's Tower Trials Skip (get above up left door, bomb clip, deku leaf to loading zone.) Forest water Light Arrows skip. (Forest water saves ~1:30) Puppet Ganon skip via zombie hover. Fight Ganon. GG. Why barrier skip is currently impossible. 1: The damage barrier is infinitely high and infinitely wide. 2: You can get behind the damage barrier by pulling out the wind waker on the last frame of invincibility from a previous hit. 3: If you get hit behind the damage barrier, you get ejected. 4: The physical wall is NOT infinitely high. You can zombie hover over/under it. 5: Zombie hovering requires taking damage to die, thus you get ejected. 6: Zombie hovering into the damage barrier will knock you down. 7: Zombie hovering behind the damage barrier is not currently possible. Why do we not get forest water at a time before getting Makar? First: 15 seconds from Ice ring to Forest Haven, WW dive, 10 seconds to get in, 10 seconds to bottle forest water, 10 seconds to get back in the water, 10 seconds to get back on path where we would've been superswimming to headstone Then: 15 seconds + 10 seconds to get in, + 10 seconds to bottle forest water + 10 seconds to get back in water + 10 seconds to get back on path (or warp) This is 1:50, which is worse than the ~1:30 or less estimate on Light Arrows Skip.
Slowking wrote:
What if forest water were to expire on the exact frame at which Link stops blinking? Might that cancel the knockback again?
- We think GlitchesAndStuff tested this. We are not sure though.
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Posted: 3/16/2012 3:30 PM
(Edited: 7/14/2012 6:56 PM)
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Kirkq
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Player (208)
Joined: 7/7/2006
Posts: 798
Location: US
Information Dump Numbered purely for readability purposes. 1: Need 80 rupees before we can buy sail. 2: Need to let tingle out at Windfall before he's on Tingle Island to decipher triforce charts. 3: Need to go to Greatfish before you can get bombs. 4: There is a text lock that occurs if you beat FF1 after greatfish without a sail. (I think these are the conditions?) Supposedly this text lock is bypassable, but no one has proved it/explained it to me yet though. This would remove the first windfall visit requirement and save maybe a minute at most. 5: Need Wind Waker OR Grapple to get into Forest Haven. (Maybe we could zombie hover to the loading zone with some convoluted method that is probably slower.) 6: Need bottle to get forest water (Obviously) 7: Need a sword to zombie hover to deku leaf. (Or grapple) 8: Need a method of dealing damage to chu jellies to get deku leaf to spawn. 9: I don't currently know the trigger for when Grandma will give you soup. I'm guessing you need both pearls though. 10: Need to trigger Tetra text in beginning of FF1 to get bombs. 11: Need to complete FF1 to spawn the boat. (For getting triforce shards, probably necessary for other things as well.) 12: Need Deku Leaf to drop a bomb during a zombie hover. We use this to open the teleportation pot in DRC. (Tingle tuner would let us heal and just land on the ground without dying, thus removing this requirement. We would then zombie hover into DRC instead of deku leafing in, probably.) Need to clarify with AniMeowzerz: FF2 vs Tower of the Gods and Hyrule visit. Will edit into post later. The current route wants forest water as early as possible. (We detour to Windfall sail because it's mostly on the way to DRI. We're already pretty tight on time and will re-evaluate this later.) We then trigger greatfish to open up bombs later. Northern Fairy Isle has one of the few lantern moblins outside FF1, so we get the rupee bag and go in FF1. The next short term goal is to get the two pearls. We want the deku leaf to bomb drop the DRC pot with no tingle tuner. We clear DRC first to waste time for Forest Water. Forest Water is going to hit within about 2 minutes of this proposed route from approximations. We can go to Bird's Peak Rock to burn some of this time. After Forbidden Woods, I don't really know the game plan, so that needs a lot of work. We need forest water to open cabana after hookshot, so I think we'll be using it after we complete the dungeon or later. We then need another forest water for light arrows skip, so we want to make sure there is at least a 20 minute gap between Cabana Triforce Chart and Light Arrows (This will most likely be satisfied anyway.) Triforce Chart Minimum prerequisites: (You need Wind's Requiem for all of these) Ani compiled most of this list. I don't know that much about late game, so things may have been blatantly overlooked here: Savage Labyrinth (Outset) (30 floors of enemy rooms) (30/60/99 arrows?) (I got 611 rupees going through here.) -Power Bracelet -Deku Leaf/Hookshot (You can deku leaf over from near Forest of Fairies) Cabana Deed (Link's Oasis) -Grapple (will have) -Hookshot (Needed to clip into Cabana) -Forest Water (Let's us skip Spoils Bag and collecting joy pendants, and thus early game cutscenes.) -Sidle past gates/Use skull hammer to slam switches through walls. Bird's Peak Rock -Grapple Hook (Clip into the chamber) Overlook Island -Hookshot to latch onto trees to get up to grotto (Zombie hover dying in grotto kicks us out) - 4 rooms of enemies, darknuts in middle room to get chart Diamond Steppe Island - Confirmed: Can get in with superswim speed. -Deku Leaf, WW dive (minimum, you can use one of the sea tornadoes to get up onto it; slow (costs maybe 20 seconds.) -OR Hookshot (faster than leaf; if skipping hookshot you need to WW dive under the island to get up to the grotto) - Sequence break mini dungeon. - Get Ghost Chart for the ghost ship - 7 locations it can show up at at night. - Go in ghost ship, fight enemies, (grab some rupees) - Grab chart. Stonewatcher Island -Power Bracelets (Abahbob may be able to unload the rock with superswim) -Lift stone, go in grotto. - 4 rooms of enemies, darknuts in middle room to get chart - This has 101 rupees per ~24 seconds. Islet of Steel -Just Superswim in (Still need Wind Waker) -Grab Chart Needle Rock Isle -Bombs -Grapple Hook -Shoot down gold boat, use grapple hook to fish the chart. Good rupee grinding methods: - Ghost Ship 310rupees/40sec = 7.75rupees/sec (1000 = 129s) - Stonewatcher Island - This has 101 rupees per quite close to 24 seconds. (4.208 rupees/sec) (1000 = 240s) - Overlook Island - This has 101 rupees per quite close to 27 seconds. (3.74rupees/sec) (1000 = 270sec) - Delivery bag game (DR) - Battleship (Windfall) 40sec*2games + 30sec*5games --> 780 rupees --> 3.39 rupees/second 40*2 + 30*6 --> 920 rupees --> 3.53 rupees/sec (1000 = 283s) Once we're getting 150 per game 150r/30sec = 5rupees/sec (only for a limited duration) - Cannon Game (Spectacle Island, shoot the boat) - Sliding puzzles? (Cabana) Savage labyrinth Enemy List: http://zeldawiki.org/Savage_Labyrinth We do need a lot of feedback on the later game route. We have everything up through Forbidden Forest pretty much under control. Only a few modifications are needed to better optimize forest water timing. (Also 80 rupees can be gathered more optimally most likely.) Chart 1: Islet of Steel (+60 rupees) Shard 1: Greatfish Isle Chart 2: Link's Oasis (<cafde> some 200-300) Shard 2: Gale Island Chart 3: Bird's Peak Rock (+60 rupees) Shard 3: Stone Watcher Island Chart 4: Ghost Ship/Diamond Steppe (310X) Shard 4: Outset Island Chart 5: Needle Rock Isle Shard 5: Cliff Plateau Isles Chart 6: Outset Island (+611 rupees) Shard 6: Southern Triangle Isle Chart 7: Stone Watcher Island (101X +62 Rupees) Shard 7: Seven-Star Isles Chart 8: Overlook Island (101X + ?) Shard 8: Two-Eye Reef (Wind Temple has 52 rupees near the end.) [15:24] <cafde> there's a bit over 300 in the ghost ship, which is what i farm on jp since the ones at overlook/stonewatcher aren't there [15:24] <cafde> you can get it multiple times if you die/save+quit so it's probably not ideal for a tas [15:24] <cafde> and some 200-300 or so in the private oasis
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Posted: 3/15/2012 1:03 AM
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Kirkq
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Player (208)
Joined: 7/7/2006
Posts: 798
Location: US
xud9dab2 wrote:
Forgive me for asking, but has anyone tested if it's possible to fish the Triforce shards out of the water prior to either getting the respective treasure chart and/or having it decrypted?
The triforce shard does not exist until the chart is deciphered (Tingle) and opened. The chart cannot be opened unless you have the sail. I need to get around to posting more of these restrictive conditions.
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Posted: 3/14/2012 1:54 AM
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Kirkq
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Player (208)
Joined: 7/7/2006
Posts: 798
Location: US
Slowking wrote:
I am SO SORRY that my crystal ball is broken. -.-
Apology accepted.
MUGG wrote:
1: <mugg> where exactly does the game freeze if you skip the FF1 tetra text 2: <mugg> What does this mean Let tingle out (1) and (2) 3: <mugg> 13: What's the grapple glitch 4: <mugg> 15: What's the forest water boss key skip
[/quote] 1: FF1 tetra text is required to get bombs to my knowledge 2: Tingle needs let out of windfall at point 1 or 2 to be on tingle island later 3: Grapple lets you clip into Bird's Peak Rock early and grab the triforce chart easily. 4: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F2LmSIKcBTU I responded once. You must not have received it. I'll see if I can sort some things for you to test in the next few days. I'm quite busy this week =[
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Posted: 3/14/2012 1:22 AM
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Kirkq
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Player (208)
Joined: 7/7/2006
Posts: 798
Location: US
Response to everything posted in the last page: WE KNOW, THIS IS A TEST RUN. The goal is to further construct the route, and perhaps generate some hype. Constructive feedback: Appreciated Clarifications: Fine 2 second optimizations: We don't care. It's obviously unoptimized. You aren't contributing anything to the discussion.
Acheron86 wrote:
I'm somewhat surprised there isn't a better island on Link's path to get an easy 100 rupees
We can probably gather 4 red rupees faster. We are aware of this possibility. It's not worth manipulating during testing, and I'm not going to bother finalizing that until we have forest water timing down.
MrSparkle wrote:
Can we superswim into the Isle of Steel for some quick rupees?
Thanks for constructive feedback, we'll put this on the consideration list. Superswims take about 15-20 seconds to get going a decent speed.
Slowking wrote:
potential improvements.
lol
SoulCal wrote:
The rolling around on Windfall Island seems very unoptimized
Brilliant observation. I'm sure we weren't aware of this.
Slowking wrote:
Also why not get the leaf when you get the forest water anyway?
You don't have anything to kill chu jellies to spawn the leaf and you don't have a sword to zombie hover to the leaf.
AngerFist wrote:
jpn
We don't care.
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Posted: 3/13/2012 12:52 AM
(Edited: 3/15/2012 1:40 AM)
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Kirkq
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Player (208)
Joined: 7/7/2006
Posts: 798
Location: US
Alright, here's the latest trial route. It really pushes the Forest Water time limit to minimize downtime. Right now I'm under the impression that this will be minutes faster than any alternative. If more time needs wasted, you can do both sail and 100 rupees on outset after grabbing forest water if you want. You could also skip Wind Requiem to waste a few seconds. Tingle can be let out later. The later options are Bird's Peak Rock, placing Din's Pearl, and rupee collection. This route will provide a good time estimate for if those are possible though. 1: Jump off watchtower. 2: Grab 100 rupee chest under grandma's house. 3: Superswim to Windfall (buy sail (80), Let Tingle Out (1)? 9: Superswim to Dragon Roost, get wind waker, get wind requiem 10: Superswim to Bomb Island, get bottle 11: Superswim to Forest Haven, get FOREST WATER (20 min) 4: Superswim to Greatfish to trigger endless night (required to get bombs) 5: Superswim to Northern Fairy Isle (Get Rupee Upgrade 1000) 6: Enter nearby sub, Lantern Moblin + No Sword sends you to Forsaken Fortress 1 7: Trigger Tetra text at bottom of FF1 by stairs. Beat Forsaken Fortress 1 (FF1) (You get a sword here) 8: At Windfall, Get Bombs, Let Tingle Out (2)? 11: Superswim to Forest Haven, zombie hover deku leaf 12: DRC deku leaf entry, deku leaf bomb drop the pot, get grapple, clear dungeon 13: Optional: Superswim to Bird's Peak Rock, grapple glitch to get triforce chart 14/16: Optional: Rupee collection, place pearl, etc. 15: FOREST WATER Boss Key skip (20 min later) 17: Tower of the Gods (big skip at beginning) 18: Forsaken Fortress 2 (FF2) (Helmrock superswim, zombie hover past boss fight to loading zone. (You get a shield now if i recall, but still have starting clothes, lol) I might edit this to reflect changes later. Notes for self mostly, this reflects my forest water time on my old route. [21:21] <Kirkq> so it was 14.5 minutes from Forest Haven entrance, bottle water, get deku leaf, DRC, and bird's peak rock, to waiting BK skip. [21:23] <Kirkq> 10:37 landed at Bird's Peak [21:24] <Kirkq> 11:08 superswimming from DRC [21:25] <Kirkq> 12:46 popping out of the DRC pot with grapple and boss key [21:27] <Kirkq> 9:52 coming out of bird's peak [21:30] <Kirkq> 9:18 on forest water outside Forest Haven [21:32] <Kirkq> From inside forest haven, grabbing the Deku Leaf, superswim to DRC, beat DRC by known method, superswim to Forest Haven should take about 8 minutes. Then going into forbidden woods and getting to the chest should take about 3:20 [21:33] <Kirkq> Abahbob: You need to get inside forest haven on the trip to get the deku leaf by about 11:20 [21:35] <Kirkq> if you're starting the superswim out of Windfall by 13:00, you can probably afford to let tingle out [21:36] <Kirkq> 13 being pretty conservative [21:36] <Kirkq> if you're at like 12:00, you can;t afford it [21:15] <Abahbob> kirkq, this is gonna be close as hell
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Posted: 3/10/2012 2:36 PM
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Kirkq
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Player (208)
Joined: 7/7/2006
Posts: 798
Location: US
The camera flips really randomly until you get up to a really high speed. Unless you're memory watching, or being extremely tedious, you really can't tell what direction the camera is going to flip to next frame. Mashing Up, Down, Up, Down, Up, Down, Up, etc. is the most convenient way to do it, but you pick the wrong direction probably 25% of the time or something. After you reach some high speed, the camera doesn't flip behind you any more, and you can just hold up. No one else is working on this right now. I'm routing with Abahbob, and Swordless hasn't started anything yet to my knowledge.
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Posted: 3/9/2012 12:29 AM
(Edited: 3/13/2012 1:02 AM)
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Kirkq
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Player (208)
Joined: 7/7/2006
Posts: 798
Location: US
New information discovered/clarified by Abahbob: 1: "Superswim can go through the entrance into thorned fairy island. useless, as bigger quiver doesnt give arrows, but cool" 2: Problems with early Forest of Fairies (FoF) by superswim method Idea 1: Enter and Leave FoF - Problem: Even after Jabun, FoF still freezes upon entry. This was not tested after Hyrule 1. Idea 2: Enter FoF, have the enemies kill each other and take fall damage, watch the long cutscene with the bird, etc. Without doing pirate ship 1 (getting the spoils bag), - This wasn't tested, but is still quite long. Why the proposed route didn't work to begin with: - Problem: Going to Greatfish before getting Tetra down causes a freeze upon entering FoF. Going to Greatfish is required before getting bombs. In order to acquire the rupee bag optimally(avoiding the freeze), we think that you must 1: Go to FoF early 2: Have the enemies kill each other/die from fall damage 3: Watch the bird cutscene/other cutscenes 4: Do pirate ship 1, get the spoils bag 5: Watch cannon cutscene into Forsaken Fortress 1 All of this takes 12-13 minutes timing from KlydeStorm's any% segments. Getting the 5000 rupee upgrade itself later in the game after the required story progression has occurred takes about another 2 minutes. Route Modification proposal as a result: - Skip the 5000 rupee bag, and complete the game with only the 1000 rupee bag. This requires 3 extra trips to tingle island. (4 trips total for 8 charts.) I'd estimate one planned trip at less than 2 minutes added. This also requires planning rupee collection and tingle island visits, but I'm pretty sure it beats the 14 minutes required to grab the rupee bag by a decent margin. EDIT1: Relevant time reference from Abahbob's TAS testing: Short Superswim (3 island lengths Windfall to Greatfish): About 30 seconds. Long Superswim (6 island lengths Outset to Windfall): About 60 seconds. Maybe 10 seconds per island is a good rough calculational value to use. An extra 6 long superswims to tingle island and separately from tingle island is only about 6 minutes. I am confident that unless a better way to mitigate the rupee bag crash is found, skipping it is faster.
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Posted: 3/1/2012 2:11 AM
(Edited: 3/13/2012 1:47 AM)
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Kirkq
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Player (208)
Joined: 7/7/2006
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I made a glitch compilation from my TAS testing a while ago, the quality isn't great, but it gets the point across. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IMhFCZvfkPk If you get a superswim going, you can swim near land to refill air without losing speed and go back to speeding up. This is how the final video clip occurs. The early route is something like this. It is very rough, and may have blatant errors. 1: Jump off watchtower. 2: Superswim glitch into Forest of Fairies to trigger cutscene so game doesn't crash later. 2: Grab 100 rupee chest under grandma's house (This takes about 55 seconds, there may be a more optimal way to get 80 rupees through manipulation.) 3: Superswim to Windfall (buy sail (80) (The sail is needed before FF1, or you get caught in a text lock. The text lock may be avoidable with perfect input that I wasn't able to do.) (Let Tingle Out (1)) 4: Superswim to Greatfish to trigger endless night (required to get bombs) 5: Superswim to Northern Fairy Isle (Get Rupee Upgrade 1000) 6: Enter nearby sub, Lantern Moblin + No Sword sends you to Forsaken Fortress 1 7: Trigger Tetra text at bottom of FF1 by stairs. Beat Forsaken Fortress 1 (FF1) (You get a sword here) 8: At Windfall, Get Bombs (Let Tingle Out (2)) 9: Superswim to Dragon Roost, get wind waker, get wind requiem 10: Superswim to Bomb Island, get bottle 11: Superswim to Forest Haven, get FOREST WATER (20 min), zombie hover deku leaf 12: DRC deku leaf entry, deku leaf bomb drop the pot, get grapple, clear dungeon 13: Superswim to Bird's Peak Rock, grapple glitch to get triforce chart 14: Rupee collection etc, is forest water BK skip good? 15: FOREST WATER Boss Key skip (20 min later) In my testing, doing 11-15 with no rupees took about 14 minutes of game time, decently optimized. 16: Place pearls, Jabun, get Rupee upgrade in Forest of Fairies assuming game crash has been mitigated. 17: Tower of the Gods (big skip at beginning) 18: Forsaken Fortress 2 (FF2) (Helmrock superswim, zombie hover past boss fight to loading zone. (You get a shield now if i recall, but still have starting clothes, lol) There is a softlock with the master sword if you don't go through the first instance of Hyrule, which is triggered by Tower of the Gods. I think this means that Tower of the Gods must be done before FF2 It may be faster to just just the forest water boss key skip and do the dungeon normally. It's hard to work forest water into the run because you have pick it up exactly 20 minutes before you want to use it. Certain places like Forest Haven, you can't re-air while superswimming, so do a short superswim to a nearby island (e.g. Bomb Island) and then without stopping, get air and start speeding up again. Also, old but good: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=51Xr2JBWbUo EDIT: This testing was all done in summer of 2011. I captured the videos yesterday from savestates I backed up. EDIT2: Random Discussion You need a sail to open triforce charts. You have to open triforce charts for that triforce piece to be acquirable. The position is assigned upon opening the chart. The crash in forest of fairies is likely because it tries to load two cutscenes at once; tetra is hanging from the tree and two guys are trying to lift the rock you have to bomb. I'm convinced the only traditional way around this is to watch a certain cutscene early on in the forest. I'm not sure if you have to get tetra down from the tree or not. (Correction:) due to not watching many early game cutscenes. You can kill the enemies in there by having them damage each other or have them take fall damage. The sail softlock: After FF1 I think, the boat engages you in repeated conversation telling you to get a sail. Supposedly if you sidehop or roll or something instantaneously, you can get away. I was never able to accomplish this, hence I got the sail first (This loses maybe a minute at most.) This needs more testing.
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Posted: 2/28/2012 5:58 PM
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Kirkq
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My opinion is that a submitted (U) run that is at most 11 minutes slower than this run should be able to obsolete this run. Text differences should not be a factor in choosing the more optimal run.
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Posted: 2/27/2012 5:46 PM
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Kirkq
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Yes vote. I support the decision to run this on the Japanese version largely because it is what the console speedrunning community is using.
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Posted: 2/24/2012 5:58 PM
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Kirkq
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Yes, if you want to make a VC version TAS in Dolphin, you can do whatever you want that would be possible on that version. It's official Nintendo software running on official Nintendo hardware. Now whether or not a VC version run would get accepted based on a few small differences is another issue, which isn't really worth discussing right now. The emulator and the run itself should each attempt to be representative of the hardware. The emulator falls short sometimes, so the run shouldn't abuse it.
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Posted: 2/24/2012 5:44 PM
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Kirkq
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Emulator glitches should not be abused to make a Nintendo 64 run play like a VC run. Each Nintendo 64 Ocarina of Time TAS should (to the best of our knowledge) be representative of how the actual Nintendo 64 hardware would respond to the input.
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Posted: 1/30/2012 9:46 PM
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Kirkq
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jlun2 wrote:
How do you measure the quality of a run? Rerecords? The amount of potential improvement? Or is it based on the author's claim that it is?
It's largely up to the trained eye of a viewer. Many people can spot areas of questionable decisions, and many are deluded by the fact that they just want to see the game published. It is usually up to the author to prove the did something more than holding right and turbofiring. Unfortunately runs don't get a whole lot of viewers there days, so little discussion is held, and then decision is often left to the judge's discretion. Quality is subjective. Rerecords should generally at least meet some threshold if the number in the file is accurate. Potential improvements should generally be limited to some specific instances instead of 10 frames lost per room or something silly. It's generally up to the judge to discern if the quality is up to par, and that something more exciting was done than holding right. Voicing your opinion in the thread probably does help contrary to popular belief. Being objective is probably a good way to get a point across. Also, Lagoon is an amazing game. =p
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Posted: 1/15/2012 6:07 PM
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Kirkq
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It seems silly to call this an all shards run if it can be classified as a 100% run. Is there any reason it wouldn't technically be a 100% run?
ais523 wrote:
The run seems to get a bit repetitive no matter what Kirby's doing, and there doesn't seem to be any huge demonstration of TAS-level reflexes
The game is a bit slow paced, but there is a lot of small optimizations, especially in the general movement around terrain. It probably only amounts to a couple seconds saved on average per room There is also a lot of planning done in switching abilities. It's not the greatest game for display of tool assisted precision, but it's there. I enjoyed the run though. =)
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Posted: 1/9/2012 10:46 PM
(Edited: 1/9/2012 10:49 PM)
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Kirkq
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I did some pretty thorough TAS testing in this game. Savestates in a different loading zone than the current will usually crash the emulator. It's pretty annoying. Superswimming makes this TAS amazing. (You can superswim from Outset to Dragon Roost in under 2 minutes.) Lack of a barrier skip and having to get all the triforce charts is a bit of a drag though. We had worked out a decently thorough route up through Tower of the Gods, but I would have to talk to someone to organize my thoughts. If anyone has actual intentions of TASing this, please contact me to discuss the route. (In reference to the below comment, Savestates as described were crashing the emulator less than 6 months ago.)
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Posted: 1/1/2012 7:51 PM
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Kirkq
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mtvf1: Did you decide what your next project would be yet?
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Posted: 1/1/2012 4:01 AM
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Kirkq
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Caution: I was bored and decided to type up a bunch of semantics. I am of the opinion that 2 things are necessary for game completion 1: Convince the viewer that the game was ended. - (Perhaps graphically for you most part? Audio itself is probably not sufficient), 2: Convince us here that the game is in its end state. - (The code presented is more than sufficient enough to explain this in this case.) I'll just explain some possible cases as I would judge them 1: The End graphic is displayed on screen - If the game has just loaded a graphic due to corruption, this is not sufficient to me to say the game has ended -No, IMO 2: Game is placed in state 29, frozen game screen - The game is in the end state, frozen, but you'll never be able to convince a viewer the game was finished. - No, IMO 3: Game is placed in state 26, shows an ending graphic on screen, and runs through to state 29 - Visual confirmation, and correct end state in code is good enough for me. - Yes 4: The gameplay halts, the credits roll in their entirety, the game resumes mid-gameplay (or even if it just crashes right at the end of the credits.) - The game is not in the correct end state in my opinion - I would say no. Is it worth sacrificing 3 frames "for speed entertainment tradeoffs" to show an earlier state of the credits and do a little better convincing of the viewer? Since people are so divided, I would probably leave this choice to the author. Given the state of the current "any%" that recently hit the workbench, I think this opens up room for 3 categories. 1: Credits glitch 2: any% 3: any% low glitch This is all my opinion of course.
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Posted: 12/5/2011 4:27 PM
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Kirkq
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mtvf1 wrote:
If wait more than 100 frames, I must edit the chip.
I see. You changed the plan if you had to wait too long.
Bag of Magic Food wrote:
Is there reason that, at the very beginning of the FreezeMan attack, mtvf1 couldn't have jacked into the Center's computer rather than Lan's computer to retrieve the RedFrag faster, since Lan was going to Dr. Hikari next anyway?
mtvf1 wrote:
You are right. I need go to official lab first. I only test that if I need to talk to NPC's girlfriend first or not, and fogot to fix it.
It is difficult to make a very good route the first time TASing. I think you did well though. =) Also, the Freezeman scenario is extremely annoying when playing normally V_V.
mtvf1 wrote:
What's about next plan? 1 improve this run. 2 goal to beat bass, a better end? 3 other MMBN. I prefer to do MMBN5 or 6, because 3's varsword has too much power, and 4 can't be emulated perfect.
I think this run is good enough that you don't need to revisit it unless you really want to. I would rather see another MMBN game or a 100% of MMBN2, but you should choose what you want to do.
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Posted: 12/3/2011 7:51 PM
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Kirkq
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Because the set of 5 battles do not have down time in between, the folder has to be stacked entirely beforehand using many different chips, making it hard to tell how many chips need gathered early on in the run. These are definitely a difficult problem to optimize, but the result is executed pretty well. He also stacks the folder a single time for multiple separate battles in a row, using different chips per battle, which is optimal. All the money and chips he collect need to pay off; I'm not sure that's entirely true. Maybe he overgathered a bit to make optimizing the battles easier? (A couple times, he spends well over 5 seconds to grab certain chips that are hard to judge whether they are worthwhile or not.) This is especially hard to judge in the first half of the run. I get the feeling this run doesn't always choose chips to gather optimally in the first half of the run, but I do think it does a good enough job. The later half is pretty straightforward with VarSword + Prism. I also really can't judge the optimality of sequences of events. (I'm not sure how many optional things he did to gather chips really because I don't remember the required events well.) This run definitely presents some creative solutions to battles. M Burst especially seems to be a really good way to avoid stunning bosses early on, but I'm curious how much time it actually cost to collect the chips for the whole P.A. A Save + Quit at a strategic point could probably optimize the chip trader sequence a bit better, as in Bag's MMBN1 run. Actually, the point the reset needs to occur may be ridiculously early in the run though, so it may be impractical. (In response to the post above, the last cutscenes have manual text scrolling I'm pretty sure. You wouldn't be able to read most of it anyway.) This run is a solid (maybe better than solid, I can't tell that well...) execution with some creative strategies. Thank you for completing this run. Definitely worth publishing in my opinion. Yes vote. =) Do a MMBN3 100% run next! =P EDIT: Also, this run does not clear the Bass dialog at the end. I think it should, and perhaps end input on the completion time screen.
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Posted: 11/24/2011 2:26 AM
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Kirkq
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Ferret Warlord wrote:
Listen, I know the game is glitched all to heck and back... But can we please put up a more cohesive screenshot? I tire of seeing screenshots that look like they were scribbled into Paint by a five year old.
I second this. I think it should be obvious what the game is by the screenshot.
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Posted: 11/19/2011 5:17 PM
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Kirkq
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This is definitely another well planned and well executed run. I think this is a fine category to feature, and the run is entertaining in a separate manner from the "Megaman" category. Two great runs, congratulations on slaughtering this game. =) (I had watched all the WIP segments on youtube except the last two which I just watched.)
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Posted: 11/12/2011 9:15 PM
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Kirkq
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Finish the run!~ =) Do you think you're quite optimized, or were you not really worrying too much about the subpixels?
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Posted: 11/5/2011 10:23 PM
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Kirkq
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Overall, he has the best run right now. He doesn't "attack cancel" to slide sooner upon hitting the ground, and he never "slide cancels" to make slide length variable. Due to these two issues, he probably loses around 5-10 frames in most rooms. He kills some of the bosses very high on the screen which costs a lot of time. He probably lost at least 15 seconds total at some of the earlier bosses. He doesn't have our stage 4 trick either. :) I suspect if I finish my run it will be around 25:00 based on his run.
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