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Celestial Archives 2nd Visit
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Not a whole lot of changes here but I still managed to save about 200 frames here anyways.
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
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AngerFist wrote:
You should submit it in case Fog_TAS can sync it. He has successfully, after a long time, managed to sync the 3 hour long Wind Waker tas.
From talking with andy in the past, the main reason he won't submit is because he's not satisfied enough with it yet. I don't know if this is still the main reason he doesn't want to submit but the whole syncing thing is sort of an excuse for the real reason. If you were unable to submit gamecube tases simply due to difficulties with getting it to sync, there would be far less TASes accepted with more recent versions of dolphin, probably 0.
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
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I have 6/8 Octoliths which are needed to unlock the final area (which is pretty short) and the final boss. The visits required to collect the remaining Octoliths aren't very long either so I'm very close to the end.
Also something I forgot to mention: that battlehammer shot where I hit myself was needed to avoid having an encounter with another hunter/guardians in the next room, and that is one of the rooms where the doors lock if there is an encounter.
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
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AngerFist wrote:
Beautiful looking wip as always MG2. Have you ever considered working on Metroid Prime? I think it would be nice to see either you working alone or collaborating with ItsPersonnal since you obviously have done great progress with this game and if anyone can quickly adapt to Metroid Prime's mechanics, it's definitely you.
Funny thing is that what actually happened was the other way around: I was more familiar with the console primes than I was Hunters until I started research back in January. Using some of the same principles as sequence breaks in some of the other primes, yet acknowledging the differences helped me come up with some solutions that the Hunters RTA community wouldn't have thought of... especially when it comes to traveling between rooms while out of bounds.
Currently I have my doubts about my computer being able to run dolphin well, and even if it could, I wouldn't want the console Primes to be my first TAS with it, especially not prime 1. I'd probably want to tackle prime 2 first because it's my favorite prime. I keep up with developments with the games though.
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
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Finished up Arcterra 3, I'm now 20576 frames ahead
Link to video
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
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Arcterra 3 WIP
Link to video
Now about 5 and a half minutes ahead.
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
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Great stuff!
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
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VDO is complete:
Link to video
8994 frames saved on VDO, after the next segment, the rough draft and my final draft will converge and I can do direct comparisons again.
Slench 4 took a long while to do, it's easily the hardest slench to optimize and I also have to be entertaining during the "figure 8's" as I call them.
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
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Slowking wrote:
This game is really convoluted in it's programming. That the devs shiped it this way on a console that wasn't updateable means they must have balls of steal. There are so many failure points it's mind boggling.
Now OoT, that's a robust game. You can torture it as much as you like, it will just continue working.
I wouldn't say they had balls of steel, I'd just say they had a budget and a deadline of steel.
It is common for games to have plenty of crashes that aren't really possible in casual play or sometimes without cheats. As long as the game runs fine for the average player, there isn't much of a reason to fix every possible failure point.
The only thing that consoles that support updates have changed is that now they might not even bother to prevent failure points that COULD happen to casual players until after release.
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
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Well the main point of the game is to collect the 8 Octoliths (2 per planet) each obtained by defeating a boss and then use them at the Alimbic Cannon on Alinos then go to Oubliette and defeat Gorea. To get to the Octoliths you need to collect the 3 artifacts corresponding to the stronghold portal that leads to a boss.
I only have half the Octoliths, but a significant fraction of the artifacts (2/3 for most planets, 1/3 for the last Arcterra Octolith) needed to get the remaining Octoliths, meaning that the remaining visits will be short for the most part. So maybe a third of the game or so.
I'm not sure how to go about adding subtitles but I guess I could do that.
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
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VDO WIP 2:
Link to video
I saved about 1018 frames on this segment. Not sure where I am at total due to the route change in Arcterra.
Cretaphid 2 is the most complicated Cretaphid to TAS due to the target color behavior not being as nice as the others. In the last phase not all targets at the same height change colors at the same time meaning I was unable to destroy all targets at the same height with bombs at once. Instead I did it with two sets of bombs.
The door started to close back up when I grabbed the health, but firing another shot kept it open.
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
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VDO WIP1:
Link to video
Saved about a minute and a half here.
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
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I never got that one potential sequence break to work so instead have this Arcterra Second Visit with a bunch of smaller new sequence breaks instead:
Link to video
This takes advantage of a newly found clip type called the reflex angle clip that allowed me to pass through those force fields where they intersect. This and another out of bounds results in a route change where I delay collecting the fault line artifact until last. As such I had to estimate how much time it took for me to collect it and take it into account when determining how far ahead I am.
I estimate I am 9764 frames ahead of the rough draft.
I'm looking forward to the next segment, VDO which has a ton of newer stuff.
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
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Invariel wrote:
I fully understand that some people consider this a cheat for low%, but I contend that in any other game's community, this would be a major find with incredible speed implications, and there wouldn't be any contention whatsoever, because managing ammunition isn't the most important part of the game, even though it is a large part of low%'s routing.
I contend that in most other game's community this would be a sign to abandon low% entirely. A lot of communities have stopped caring about low%'s in their games because after a certain point they become so broken that low% becomes hard to define and/or too similar to any% to keep as a separate category.
They'd use this glitch but it is very unlikely they'd keep low%.
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
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Anty-Lemon wrote:
scrimpeh wrote:
I don't understand the exact situation or what has happened to the game as of late. Can someone give me the cliff notes, please?
As far as low% is concerned, 13% now has 5 separate routes rather than 1, due to the discovery of an ammo overflow at Draygon. The 4 new routes get an extra PB tank in order to use a Crystal Flash in the Draygon fight, plus one of either Speedbooster, Ice, XRay, or a third PB tank. It's been proposed that two low% TASes be published, one being the fastest route w/overflow and the other being the overflow-less Charge-Speed, but it has been controversial, as the last few pages can attest to
Actually most people don't seem to care for both now and are simply asking for one or the other.
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
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Will people please stop misconstruing my posts to mean something that they don't, or only responding to parts of my posts.
I am not of the Super Metroid community. There isn't a "war" and if there is, it doesn't have to be one.
Not all viewers are of the "Ooh a new glitch yay!" opinion. Some of them have tastes more similar to that of the Super Metroid community.
My personal opinion is that while the glitch by itself is interesting, it feels like it would ultimately just make the runs more similar to that of branches where you have lots of items, like 100%.
In a post I made that got completely ignored, I alluded to a third option entirely: low% all bosses. Low% all bosses basically allows for oob while still going through a good portion of the game. It ends with 12% instead of the 13% that the other proposed branches would obtain. This category has a page on deertier, but only one runner. This is actually the only Super Metroid category I really like to watch. It would be a fairly unique spin on the game that would show off some of the more broken aspects of Super Metroid in an interesting way in my opinion and would be a very different run from what is on the site.
However, in the end people will TAS what they want. I understand and support having less Super Metroid TASes on the site. However, they won't make a TAS that they won't like. If they don't want to make just a 13% TAS with underflow and that's their only option for publication, then you may simply be stuck with the two 14% runs that you have currently.
Now please stop misconstruing my posts to make it seem like I hate change. I just wouldn't like that change.
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
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I thought it was clear by the surrounding context that I meant "none of the current Super Metroid TASers" when I said "noone" but I guess it wasn't.
If the glitch doesn't save time in any%, then you just simply don't have a run with that glitch. There are plenty of interesting glitches that don't find ways into TASes.
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
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Anty-Lemon wrote:
TheMG2 wrote:
Having a ton of ammo goes against why many viewers would watch low% in the first place. A lot of people watch low% with the expectation of the use of less equipment, not the use of more ammo that is traditionally obtained through item collection. If I were a casual viewer, I'd feel a little cheated by seeing such an underflow glitch used in a low%.
I have no comment about using it in other categories however.
Idk about you, but w/o knowing about missile overflow my first reaction would be "wtf how does Samus have so many missiles!?" rather than "lame, no true low% run has thousands of missiles." The awe factor is more important to the average viewer than the meticulous routing, and pumping Ridley and MB full of super missiles certainly has awe. And if we absolutely need a run in which Samus gets by by the skin of her teeth, then we already have RBO anyway.
Either way, it's neither here nor there. What is entertaining and what is not will be judged when such a run is submitted, and if missile overflow does not result in an entertaining run it will not be published.
You misunderstand me. I do not doubt that it has wow factor on it's own. I don't dislike such glitches in general. I just don't think that low% would be the best way to show such a glitch off.
I know I personally was disappointed when I saw the Metroid NES low% TAS get a bunch of missiles from defeating an additional boss over any%. Additionally I've repeatedly seen questions regarding Metroid Prime 2 low% about how it does item loss skip to keep some items (in which case they don't count towards percent) rather than losing them and having to recollect them (in which they do count). With MP2 though, you end up having less items total with item loss anyways and all the items kept through that skip would have to be obtained in a category in a low% w/o the skip, but some people remain skeptical anyways.
Now of course there is the argument that it could be determined if such a run was submitted. Problem is that this sort of implies that they would need to do a TAS with the underflow first AND then do a TAS without. It seems pretty clear that they would much rather do a TAS without (or two TASes, but noone wants just the TAS with overflow), especially if they think a TAS with would not be received well. It just seems like it would be a waste of time to make them go through the entire process for that.
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
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Having a ton of ammo goes against why many viewers would watch low% in the first place. A lot of people watch low% with the expectation of the use of less equipment, not the use of more ammo that is traditionally obtained through item collection. If I were a casual viewer, I'd feel a little cheated by seeing such an underflow glitch used in a low%.
I have no comment about using it in other categories however.
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
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Schmeman wrote:
Agreed, figured I'd bring it up though, since it exists.
I have to also agree though that I don't particularly find 100% Glitched to be all that interesting. I too would much prefer to see a further optimized NMG 100% instead. There may be better goals to showcase glitched mechanics.
Isn't there a low% all bosses category on deertier that allows oob and stuff but still goes through the majority of the game? I remember that run being interesting to watch.
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
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Samsara wrote:
Aran Jaeger wrote:
So one could split low% (without OoB) into 2 branches
No. Work on and submit the fastest low% run, let it obsolete the currently published runs, and that's it. It's absurd that we have two low% runs published already, there's literally no good reason to keep upholding this "tradition".
I'm not sure if they should go with the fastest per say. This ammunition underflow seems like abusing the percentage counter. IDK if that'd be the faster of the two proposed branches but it sounds a little lame in a low% setting.
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
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And here I remember hearing that the Sonic Advance 2 camera was able to keep up with Sonic. Clearly that person was mistaken.
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
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I have yet to finish watching the TAS in question (though I don't know if I will be able to because of my gamer instincts screaming every time it enters a room with an item and immediately turns around) but I don't think this site runs on a system of precedent like a court. Just because it was decided years ago that such and such goal choices would be accepted for publication back then, it doesn't mean that such and such goal choices would be ok today. However removing previously accepted branches without obsoleting them in some way would not be fair to the authors of those publications.
As someone who isn't really big on Super Metroid, it appears to me to have a ton of branches. It definitely seems reasonable to compare the entertainment value of one branch to that of another.
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
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Link to video
132 frames saved on this segment over my previous WIP. 960 frames were saved by redoing the previous two segments. I'm now 8543 frames ahead of my original rough draft.
Now to never see the next segment get finished because I'm close to getting another sequence break to work in that segment but at the same time I haven't made much headway on it recently.
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
