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PangaeaPanga wrote:
jimsfriend wrote:
mi2 (small thing): on the down slope right before the midway gate it is possible to get a 6/4 cycle rather than a 6/5 cycle. If you jump on the slope twice, you get two 6/4 cycles, so you are potentially spending two more frames at max speed. Is that enough to save a frame?
Won't make a difference what I do in Misty Isle 2. Even if I do that, it's not enough to save a frame. On top of that, if I even do manage to hit the goal tape 1 frame earlier, I get a frame of lag right before I hit it, killing the entire improvement (similar to this video). Saving 2 frames might solve this, but it's not known if it is possible yet.
One less in-game frame and one more lag frame don't mean "no improvement". It does actually change some frame rules, such as sprite interaction. We've heavily abused this trade in the latest smw any%.
PangaeaPanga wrote:
jimsfriend wrote:
dsw and skysw, may not be possible.:
Use shyguy instead of yellow shell in dsw. Shyguy stays shy for ~500 frames. Now, since you have shell in reserve still, you can not get cape, so it will be difficult to get to the exit tape (or impossible). There are 3 shyguys near the beginning. Use one in place of yellow shell, and the two others as guys who boost you to jump higher. Throw 2nd shyguy up in the air, then jump up with 3rd shyguy and bounce off 2nd shyguy, near peak of that bounce, bounce off the 3rd shyguy. If this is possible and works, you would have fire flower for wsw (should not make you slower) and csw (will slow you down some). Then in skysw you can use the shell to make yoshi wings. You will have to drop the shell at the beginning and carry it on yoshi's tongue because you need to take the cape at the beginning of the level. If all of that, excluding the 1st shyguy waking back up, costs more than 469 frames then it will be slower :(. 469 is based on your saying you lost 969 frames as skysw and it taking ~500 frames for shyguy to wake up so you can bounce off of him.
I had this idea in mind, except your idea has two flaws:
1. In order to execute the stun glitch, I need to switch power-ups in the process, which means I either have to drop the shell in Desert Star World, or simply let the fireflower override it when it goes into the reserve box when I collect the feather (it's the "You start off by voiding a sprite in Yoshi's tongue, which is achieved by eating it when you already have another sprite in Yoshi's mouth, which I demonstrate in the run by using the 'stick out Yoshi's tongue at the same time you hit a power-up' glitch. Then you have to get hit and fall off Yoshi before you eat the 2nd sprite." step in executing the glitch.). This is why I can't Yoshi Wing exit in Sky Star World.
2. (A more minor problem) I can't use Shy Guys. I need something that Yoshi won't swallow immediately, which he doesn't do with Shy Guys. However, there are Koopas on the other side of the hill, but it doesn't matter because of (1.).
You can perform stun bug in dsw with a shell kept in your reserve. Take a damage in c2 and go to dsw with small mario + yoshi + shell. Maybe using koopas, on the other side of the hill, is slower, but it's still possible.
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Great job. I'm surprised you did so quick. :p
Possible improvements not written in comments:
Misty Isle 3 (Dawn): Use a goomba to hit the fireflower block. We can pick it up quicker, and it bounces so high that it can be thrown in a larger distance. Though it's written in comments that he managed to improve about 20 frames of fadeout lag, prehaps it's from this improvement.
Sky Star World: Flying up to the cloud instead of 6/5'ing. The (suboptimal) demo shows 10 frames improvement (4 of the 10 are from lag reduction).
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This is a summary of Post #300393 (written in Japanese).
／
／
■
■ ← Let mario's x position be zero when touching it from the left
If you want to slide through the slope, you have to make your x movement small and y movement large at a gap of the slope. More precisely, your x-pos must vary like 19→21 and y-pos must decrease by 3 at that time (this is possible because holding A or B makes y-speed -35; usual y-speed on slope is -32). Thus for this x-speed needs to be 47 or less (and maybe over 40 or so, I'm not sure).
This is performed at DSH in the current any%, or at Wiggler's Iceberg in my wip of TSRP2 (frame 82000). This trick is useful in such a narrow space that we can't jump/fly through slope, as performed in the above wip.
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I wonder how often I lose motivation. Anyway here is a new wip up to the entry of World 5:
http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/113324243/SMW_TSRP2_Mister_W4.smv
It's odd only one world make the rerecord count double.
Saws
Nothing special. I tried to avoid flying through most of the level but I couldn't get it.
Hot Chocolate
Red blocks again. I kept p-running through the first long section. In the second section, things work in my favor, and the strategy of vertical break at around frame 79850 is pirohiko's. Fireball management is harder than it looks. The flying section has a brown water layer, and lava layer in the bottom, both of which I have to avoid.
Wiggler's Iceberg
Nothing special other than sliding through the slope. I figured out the exact condition where it works. Maybe I'll post it in smw topic. Done.
At frame 83300, there's a wiggler 256 pixels above or so. It seems like interaction with wigglers is controlled by only lower bytes of their y-positions.
Rex Canyon, Grand Canyon
Flying levels. There's no room to make them more entertaining I guess.
Ice Temple
Water level having a narrow path and a shell totally tired me out but it's a good spice to such a long run, isn't it?
Ghost Train
The first auto-scrolling level of this run and some tetrominos. I didn't know it was possible to spinjump on a vanishing grab block or a broken one. A notable improvement is to avoid the auto-appearing message at the beginning of boss fight by filling sprite slots. The same strategy doesn't work for a midway autoscroll.
Thank you guys for your watching my live streaming while tas'ing. Enjoy it!
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snorlax wrote:
Mister wrote:
The secret exit in yi4 does trigger Iggy's castle normal exit and make a path from there, but we won't be able to walk that path any longer.
What do you mean? If we beat YI4 regularly and with the secret exit, we can't walk straight to DP1? Is there a video showing what happens? The only videos I can find with this glitch have all the levels already beaten.
Thanks for the great videos guys and the prompt reply. Valley of Bowser 4 might be my favorite level now.
There's no video as far as I know, but, assuming you have an emulator, you may easily check it by using gocha's lua script, which enables you to get normal exit with start select, and secret exit with start A+select.
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I've just watched this video, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_0XW2N3cKCI, and I now think you should do 99 exits. The comments there raise a question for me too: if you got a secret exit in, for example, Yoshi's Island 4, would that mark Iggy's Castle as complete?
We however have no means of making sure if we actually get 99 exits, other than watching memory. The secret exit in yi4 does trigger Iggy's castle normal exit and make a path from there, but we won't be able to walk that path any longer.
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bahamete wrote:
So as you may or may not (probably not) know, we have decided to attempt the 96-exit run due to news of ISM 'giving up', for lack of a better term or knowledge. I guess he grew weary of new discoveries.
Current team is that of any%: Kaizoman666, Mister, PangaeaPanga and me.
So we're interested in some points the community may want to offer out an opinion for because we're struggling to see a logical swing one way or the other.
Do we use Chuck-Eat glitch?
This was discussed somewhat previously but we really need a solid answer as we'll be started soon. We'd love a judges opinion but anyone can throw their opinion out.
This would mean maybe 15 or more exits will be beaten using a goal sphere, and water levels (we're currently thinking Soda Lake) will be skipped by holding a key. Things like this.
I personally believe that using the bug will make the run look boring to some, but fresh and original to others. It's a grey area.
Do we use secondary results of Chuck-Eat glitch?
According to antaasas and others, we can write to any address possible by eating a chuck with OAM in a correct order.
I'm not too knowledgable but from preliminary thoughts, we could manipulate which overworld Mario is on, the powerup we currently have, which item is in reserve, etc.
It gets a little hazy when you realise that using this method, we can trigger the credits, or even write 96 to the exit counter and consider that a "finished" run. We don't want to do this; so which is acceptable?
Do we use "stun any sprite" bug?
Recently, we've found a way to stun any sprite. To people who aren't obsessed with SMW this basically means we can put sprites into a position where they will spawn something, similar to how an overturned Koopa shell spawns a koopa.
Think in the glitched run, where fishes are spawned. This bug has been known for a while but now any sprite is possible. Thanks to ISM and antaasas, so far we can spawn Koopa Kids (more or less instant level enders) and goal tapes. I'll detail this bug later, though. I will mention this bug will only be useful in a maximum of maybe 5 levels.
What constitutes all-exits?
Using goal sphere in Bowser's Castle, Back Door and Funky, we can in fact get 99 exits. So should we? This is a tough one to answer, I guess :p
So what do you think? It's hard to judge which should be used as it could ruin the run, potentially. Include all possible bugs? Exclude all of the above? Some but not others?
Hoping more people would become interested in this discussion, here is a quick translation into Japanese. / より多くの方に興味を持ってもらいたいので、日本語でも説明しておきます。
全クリTASを一から作り直すにあたって、いくつか問題点が浮上しているので、意見を募りたいと思います。
ブル食べバグを使うかどうか
これについては何度か議論されていますが、より正確な線引きのためにももう一度ここで確認を取りたいと思っています。
ゴール玉と鍵のストックが可能ですが、ゴール玉が使用されるであろう箇所はおよそ15ほどになると想定しています。それに対して、鍵の使用は恐らく水中面での加速に使われる（ソーダの湖？）のみで、鍵本来としての使い道はなさそうです。
ゴール玉を使うと、一部とてつもなく退屈になってしまう可能性がありますが、逆に新鮮味が増す部分もあり、判断の難しいところです。グレーゾーンといったところでしょうか。
ブル食べバグの副作用を使うかどうか
antaasasさんらが指摘しているように、特定の状況でブルを食べると、任意コードを実行できる可能性があるらしいです。専門的なことは分からないのですが、マリオのパワーアップ状態やストックを変化させたり、マリオの居るマップを調整できるのかもしれません。エンディングを呼び出したり、ゴール数を操作できたりする可能性もないとは言えないので、やはりこの副作用を使うのは我々としても避けたいところです。
スタンバグを使うかどうか
まだ定まった用語が決まっていないので、分かりづらいと思いますが、「Pスイッチからプクプクが出る」とか「ひっくり返った甲羅からハダカガメが出る」とかと似たような現象を、ほとんど全てのスプライトで実行することが可能になったということです。何が生成されるかはスプライトによって違いますが、たとえばコクッパやゴールテープを出現させることもできます（antaasas、ISM両氏の調査による）。このバグが使われるのは恐らく5箇所程度になるでしょう。
全クリとは？
ゴール玉をクッパ城入り口、裏口、スペシャルコース8で使うと、新規ゴールとしてカウントされます。つまりゲーム内部的には99ゴールまで計算されるということです。では99ゴールをもって全クリとするべきなのでしょうか、それとも今までどおり96ゴールのほうがよいのでしょうか。また、ゴール数が96以上のとき、米国版ロムのタイトル画面では星付きの96しか表示されません。日本語ロムには星付き表示が用意されていないので、97以上でも普通に表示されます。
もし96ゴールをもってして全クリと称するのであれば、その96ゴールはどうやって選ばれるべきでしょう。本来の96ゴールのみに限定するか、あるいはどこでもいいから96ゴールすればいいとするか。
それぞれのバグの全容が見えていないだけに、何が動画の質を損ねるかを判断して、納得のいく線引きを設けるのは非情に難しいと思います。全てを含めるべきなのか、あるいは全て排除するべきなのか。はたまた特定のものだけ使うことにするのか。何か思うところがありましたらご意見をどうぞ。日本語でもかまいません。（私自身あまり英語が得意でないので、私のキャパシティを超えた曖昧な表現があった場合いくぶんストレートに言い換えられる可能性があります。）
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bahamete wrote:
What constitutes all-exits?
Using goal sphere in Bowser's Castle, Back Door and Funky, we can in fact get 99 exits. So should we? This is a tough one to answer, I guess :p
Even if we get 99 exits, the title screen still shows the starred 96 graphic. But in the (J) rom, there's no such limit, and the title screen can actually show 99.
One more question related to this is what should be called "96-exit". Just beating 96 arbitrary exits (which makes sense now), or beating the 96 original exits. Please keep this in mind as well. I have no idea as to which is faster, though.
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Nico encode of the updated movie: http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm16636523
As to the update, the precise changes of time are:
8 frames gained in yi1
1 frame lost at ds1 exit (level-transition lag)
1 frame lost at dsh exit (same)
1 frame lost at sw1 exit (same)
1 frame gained at sw4 entry (same)
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Glitcher wrote:
kaizoman666 wrote:
Glitcher wrote:
You're just proving my point. That SML2 run isn't in a new category, it's the only SML2 run that's been published!
Excuse me? It doesn't mean there can't be two categories. (points at here and here)
Yeah? Take a look at Chrono Trigger then. The current run obsoleted the previous one by using severe memeory corruption to shave four hours off the game. Why then wasn't it put into a separate category?
I think a separate "beats Bowser" category for this run is absurd. This TAS and a credits glitch TAS both constitute an any% run, and the credits glitch TAS is clearly shorter.
Apparently, your discussion is somewhat irrelevant. You guys should say "there's no such example, and therefore this shouldn't be such as well" instead of "there're such examples, and therefore this should be such, too." Only a few examples never justify their correctness.
Anyway, in my opinion, if this run can fall into another category than the credits glitch, it may be due to "beating bowser" or "not using null-spit" either of which may distinguish the non-credits-glitched from the credits-glitched. There's no strict standard yet which treats memory-corruption type runs, so we need more careful discussion about it, I'm just hoping.
By the way, an 8-frame improvement of yi1 was hinted today or yesterday (by Dawn IIRC), so we're putting it into our run and going to have the movie replaced. It'll take us a day or two at least, or more if we encounter some score planning issue. Hex editing was going well up to bowser (and it's going to be a 6-frame improvement), so we have only to redo bowser if there's no other possible score route.
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Masterjun wrote:
hegyak wrote:
One, where do those fish come from? Why are they spawning at all?
i dont know why they spawn, but they are spawning when yoshi has a nearly disappeared p-switch in his mouth.
Timers of disappearing and spawning are on the same memory address, and eating and spitting a stumped p-switch swap the former for the latter. For more technical details, see this post.
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antaasas uploaded his summarized documentation on the bug (in Japanese).
I'm still testing star world and wondering when I can finish testing that... orz
EDIT: does anyone check if this glitch works on other rerecording emulators?
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DarkMoon wrote:
DarkKobold wrote:
This one is only less obvious, because both runs will use Yoshi. However, one relies on the null-spit glitch, and the other is a sprite-replace-swallow glitch.
Fun fact: Both glitches use the null sprite.
But he said "null-spit", which is used in only one of the two glitches.
Speaking of the "usual" any%, we're examining Star World and Bowser's Castle to make sure how many frames we can trade off for lag reduction and frame rules. And I don't see why we quit our run due to the new glitched run. So, don't worry.
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スーパーファミコンソフトスーパーマリオワールド（Super Mario World）に関するトピックです。既に英語のトピックがあり、そちらでは盛んな議論が行われています。
SNES Super Mario World
ニコニコ動画に端を発する日本人のマリオワールドTASerは決して少なくはありません。これからマリオワールドのTASを作ってみたいと思っている人もいるでしょう。しかし日本にはTAS製作のポータルサイト的な役割を持った場所がなく、何か議論をしたいと思ってもこのサイトのような英語系サイトを頼るしかないというのが現状です。英語トピックのほうでの日本語による質問も特に問題はないのですが、やはり気が引けてしまう人も多いのではないかと思います。そんな方々へワンクッション挟んであげられたらいいなという思いで、このトピックを作りました。ゆくゆくは英語トピックへと旅立っていって欲しいというのが本音ですが。
「英語苦手だからとりあえずこっちで」、「どこか人目のつくところに置いておきたいけれど、英語で書けるほど情報が整理できていない」などなど、このトピックの利用価値はいくらでもあると思います。たとえ日本語の情報であろうと、一箇所に情報が集まるというのは、誰にとっても嬉しいものでしょう。
まあ長々と建前を書きましたが、肩に力を入れず気軽に使ってくれると嬉しいです。楽しくやりましょう、楽しく。
-----------
This is a topic of Super Mario World, mainly for those of Japanese who are not very good at speaking English yet. Of course I would like them to join the original SMW topic in future, but I think this would be a good step toward it. Any help is welcome.
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ISM planned the all dragon coins TAS originally in SMW, but a few problems made him quit this project. He pointed them out in his blog; the summary is like this:
a) The existence of dragon coin glitch. This is so serious because it would enable us to get yoshi wings in almost all the levels, and to collect dragon coins in the sky levels.
b) The game can't save the collected dragon coins, as Zowayix pointed out above.
These problems make it difficult to understand the "all dragon coins" goal. Possible goals are maybe:
1) To collect all possible dragon coins including those in the sky level;
2) To collect at least five dragon coins in each level which possesses dragon coins.
The first one is impossible, because we can get a yoshi wing in VS2 but we don't have time long enough to pull it off. The second is also impossible since, for example, SW3 has no dragon coins in the usual level, but 4 dragon coins in the sky level. The other goals may be so arbitrary.
The problems are all solved in SMA2. That's why ISM made his SMA2 run.
EDIT: you can get his test movies on yoshi wings, in this entry.
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YI1 test updated; 3 frames are saved in level:
http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/565811301/smw-yi1test3.1.smv
Maybe I have suggested all the possible optimization ideas that I think of. Two things to note: first, the frame rule of death seems to have 4 frames length; second, the frame rule of sprite interaction, having 2 frames lengh, may make it desync.
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Lil_Gecko wrote:
What if we could have a shell to hit Bowser.
Or maybe a cloud ? I think to remember someone saying that with a cloud you can manipulate the mechakoopas ?
IIRC, shells don't hit Bowser unfortunately. But if we can reserve a cloud by eating other sprites, it would be great.
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I'm wondering why only chucks give such a strange bug. The SMWC RAM and ROM MAP tell us:
$7E:167A, 12 bytes, Sprites
Sprite properties, fourth Tweaker/MWR byte.
Format: dpmksPiS
d=Don't use default interaction with player
p=Gives power-up when eaten by Yoshi
m=Process interaction with player every frame
k=Can't be kicked like a shell
s=Don't change into a shell when stunned
P=Process while off screen
i=Invincible to star/cape/fire/bouncing bricks
S=Don't disable clipping when killed with star
and
3F6C7, $07:F4C7, 201 bytes, Sprite Misc.
Default values for $167A, various misc flags, for the standard sprites.
Change $07F57D (0x3F77D) from 00 to 01 to fix the glitched tiles that appear when a reflecting fireball goes into lava and make it display the normal lava splash.
It seems like chucks have a p flag so they give power-ups. And by memory watch (or something like that) we can list up which sprites give power-ups when eaten by yoshi I guess. I'm not familiar with hacking and have no idea how to do it. Hopefully someone will do.
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I attacked yi1 again in a different way which I thought of when I was in the bathroom.
http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/1038904130/smw-yi1test2.3.smv
This is like 41 frames faster in yi1 than Masterjun's test. So we are now very close to the 10 minutes mark! I guess it's still improvable.
To understand this strategy, one should know first that a mushroom (or fireflower) from the reserved box is still active even when it's in the offscreen. So you need four reserved mushrooms to fill sprite slots #08-#11.
To do this you may think of the double-eat glitch. But the rule of the double-eat glitch is rather solid: for example, when double-eating a reserved mushroom (in #11), releasing a reserved mushroom between grabbing a mushroom (fisrt time) and swalloing (second time) gives nothing, because they are all in the same slot #11. But you can avoid this by using another sprite from a block: in the movie (around at frame 1400), a 1-up appears in slot #09 then a reserved mushroom appears in #08(!). After the 1-up mushroom is inactive, the reserved mushroom is duplicated. At this time, the latter reserved mushroom appears in #09 and the empty mushroom on the tongue is in #08, so no collision happens, meaning the mushroom #09 is never attracted to the tongue. Of course, in the case of the mushroom behind the grass, you don't need such a tricky process.
Anyway it looks so entertaining, doesn't it? ;)
Retired because of that deletion event.
Projects (WIP RIP): VIP3 all-exits "almost capeless yoshiless", VIP2 all-exits, TSRP2 "normal run"
