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Warp wrote:
I think that categorizing a completely unbeatable game as "TAS-proof" is a bit of cheating. Of course it's "TAS-proof" if it's impossible to complete. That sounds like a complete triviality.
What I'm thinking with "a TAS-proof game" is one that is perfectly well beatable, but its game mechanics are such that TAS tools do not help beat it any better. In other words, TASing it offers no advantage over playing it normally: It's exactly as difficult either way.
It's hard to imagine such a game existing. I think it would have to be a kind of game that is not skill-based.
The closest thing I can think of would be a chess game. Although, in a sense, there are tools to help even a non-player to play at superhuman strength: Top chess engines. OTOH, beating such an engine would in itself be an almost impossible challenge, except by using another chess engine. So, depending on how you define TASing, this might not be an example.
The kind of game I'm imagining here would actually be a particularly simplistic run-right-for-justice platformer type of game. The kind of game where you just hold right, time some jumps (with enough lenience to be easily doable in real time), and just get an optimal time as long as you don't get blocked/hit along the way and don't stop letting go of right.
A (micro) example of this that I have been dealing with is in NES-Pack (demo version), where the first stage used to be like this:
You could hold right as the stage started, do four pretty easy jumps along the way, and reach the flag with a 1.85 seconds in-game time every time. There would be no distinction between TAS and real-time, as real-time with just a little bit of practice would always get 1.85, and a TAS would not be able to do it any faster than that.
(The first stage is actually laid out a bit different now for exactly this reason, to make it non-trivial to get a perfectly optimized time).
Now imagine if a whole game was made of stages of this nature. A real-time runner would practically always be able to score a perfect time, and a TAS would not be able to beat that. Then you have a game where TASing it offers no advantage.
http://www.youtube.com/Noxxa
<dwangoAC> This is a TAS (...). Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects.
<Masterjun> I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits
<adelikat> In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help.
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Certainly it's possible to make a game too hard to TAS. It's not even particularly hard to do - all you need to do is to make sure to make the game so hard it's impossible to complete. Guarantee that the player will fail at some point, and make it impossible to progress past a certain point.
A good example is Penn & Teller's Smoke and Mirrors (the same game that also holds Desert Bus).
Link to video
Its "impossible" difficulty is literally impossible, and also describes the concept in-game with a nice quote by Lou Reed:
"This is the Impossible level, boys. Impossible doesn't mean very difficult. Very difficult is winning the Nobel Prize; impossible is eating the Sun."
http://www.youtube.com/Noxxa
<dwangoAC> This is a TAS (...). Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects.
<Masterjun> I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits
<adelikat> In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help.
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Radiant wrote:
That's odd, the thread in Gruefood is listed as created on 2016-04-07. But yes, you are correct.
That happens when submission threads get edited. Not sure why it happens, but it does.
Anyway, speaking of April Fools submissions, any suggestions from this year's set of April Fools submissions for Gruefood Delight?
http://www.youtube.com/Noxxa
<dwangoAC> This is a TAS (...). Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects.
<Masterjun> I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits
<adelikat> In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help.
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Since earlier today, we've been discussing between the judges about possible changes or clarifying inconsistencies regarding sports games in the Vault. This run was judged properly by Samsara as according to the Vault rules, but the rules themselves look like they may need an update.
Depending on our conclusion, we may unreject this run in the future and re-evaluate it for the Vault, and may do the same for some other rejected submissions as well.
http://www.youtube.com/Noxxa
<dwangoAC> This is a TAS (...). Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects.
<Masterjun> I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits
<adelikat> In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help.
It's already on there, and has been there for at least a year.
http://www.youtube.com/Noxxa
<dwangoAC> This is a TAS (...). Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects.
<Masterjun> I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits
<adelikat> In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help.
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Pokota wrote:
The "physically walk around your room" is extremely limiting in terms of game mechanics and game design.
Turn your thinking around. Instead of just a room, imagine a room with a treadmill.
(Yeah that's the best I've got but it's still forward progress).
Like the Virtuix Omni?
http://www.youtube.com/Noxxa
<dwangoAC> This is a TAS (...). Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects.
<Masterjun> I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits
<adelikat> In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help.
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Interesting how there can be such a story and history behind a set of IRC scripts.
I knew it could do many things (although I mostly only used it for the occasional .seen query), but didn't know it could do half as much as is listed here. I also didn't know it was as old as it was before having to be 'retired'.
Developing and maintaining it for that length of time must have been quite an experience indeed. It's somewhat sad to see it all have to end.
http://www.youtube.com/Noxxa
<dwangoAC> This is a TAS (...). Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects.
<Masterjun> I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits
<adelikat> In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help.
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diggidoyo wrote:
Your tone makes it clear that no discussion will be tolerated. I have to at least make you open to suggestions before a suggestion can be made.
I am literally asking for you to make an argument. If this is the response to that, I give up.
diggidoyo wrote:
Your arguments sound more like you're unwilling to make a decision on the matter
diggidoyo wrote:
You announced your verdict before the trial started.
Are you serious?
http://www.youtube.com/Noxxa
<dwangoAC> This is a TAS (...). Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects.
<Masterjun> I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits
<adelikat> In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help.
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diggidoyo wrote:
I'd contest that this run is NOT for people who don't know what a TAS is. Most TAS's wont be. That's what we have the star tier for.
How do you aim to ensure that everybody who ever watches your TAS will already know what a TAS is? What about people who will randomly look for Mega Man 9 videos on YouTube? There will be people who see your run as their first TAS ever, and you have no control over that.
diggidoyo wrote:
Your arguments sound more like you're unwilling to make a decision on the matter, both now and in the future, and want to uphold the foundation by which a decision will never have to be made. If that's how judgements are made around here, I'm thankful this is only a TAS.
I'm making a very clear cut decision on the matter. The decision is that cheat codes are a no go. I'm not sure how I can be any more clear with my decision, actually.
And honestly, I haven't heard a single decent argument from you yet why I should think otherwise. Your posts are mostly just complaining about my decision-making and judgments, no actual arguments for cheat code runs.
http://www.youtube.com/Noxxa
<dwangoAC> This is a TAS (...). Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects.
<Masterjun> I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits
<adelikat> In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help.
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diggidoyo wrote:
I'll politely counter with the fact that this "principle" you speak of was founded before the Wii was even released, and the capabilities it (and by extension it's emulators) bring could not have been foreseen.
Times change, technology improves, and art (which is what this is) evolves.
How does the fact that this is a Wii run make it any different? The principle of cheat codes to modify games hasn't changed much from the NES' Game Genie to the Wii's USB Gecko. The only major difference is that the cheat code itself is more elaborate than what you see on earlier consoles, but that doesn't make it not a cheat code. It's still a cheat code, designed no less to speed up (in realtime) the gameplay.
diggidoyo wrote:
All it takes is a little cognitive decision making based on facts instead of blind judgments based on fear.
If the main drawback is the assumption that troves of cheat code runs will follow from the dangerous precedent, then that assumes a lack of faith in the judges to maintain reason in the first place.
I never stated that "troves of cheat code runs" are the main drawback, nor have I ever stated anything remotely like it. But if you want to argue down that road, fact is, if we are going to accept even one TAS that relies on a cheat code, then we are going to have to draw a line somewhere, and given the potential of all sorts of cheat codes, this line will be tested several times. How do you define what will be "okay" to use as a cheat code, and what not? Without a perfectly clear answer (and there will not be a perfectly clear answer, I can absolutely guarantee you) we will eventually just get a mess of unique cases, special exceptions, disagreements on what belongs where and by the end of it nothing will make sense anymore. I'd rather not go down that road, when we could just not accept any cheat code runs to begin with.
Anyhow, that argument aside - what I did say was that I refuse to accept cheat code runs because of the history of TASVideos, and TASes in general. For years, TASVideos had to deal with the common misconceptions that TASes were cheated runs. Even today, that still happens on occasion. Accepting actual cheated runs would effectively validate that conception, effectively devaluing the concept of a TAS, and I refuse in principle to let that happen. In my book, the definition of a TAS is a stream of input that can theoretically be played back on console (in ideal circumstances) without outside modifications effecting the run. A run that depends on an USB Gecko code violates that definition, and therefore I do not consider it eligible for publication.
EDIT:
diggidoyo wrote:
Furthermore, exactly what kind viewer would be uniformed here? Are you worried my grandpa will feel betrayed by this??
Anyone who has played MM9 would know what's going on.
How about anyone who does not know what a TAS is? They are going to get the misconception that TASing involves cheating, which most certainly should not be the case. And it will be quite hard to shake off that impression when it's literally what this run is doing.
http://www.youtube.com/Noxxa
<dwangoAC> This is a TAS (...). Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects.
<Masterjun> I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits
<adelikat> In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help.
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Sometimes, what you consider to be important is just not what other people consider important. It happens sometimes, and you'll just have to deal with that fact.
Clearly the people here, and wherever else you posted, are not bothered by the extra features that are put in VR hardware by Oculus et al. Apathy, disinterest, maybe, or perhaps they just don't agree with your position.
Also, I have some questions:
Warp wrote:
Contrast that to the PlayStation VR. A minimalistic set of features, those needed for actual gaming, at half the price. (I have no idea of the quality. It might be complete crap. But at least they kept to the essentials, and kept the price to a reasonable level.)
Isn't this exactly what you are already asking for? If Sony is already creating a minimalistic VR headset with a lower price, why not just exclusively buy or support that? Why do all the other companies also need to cater to those like you who want just the gaming essentials?
If the rest of the companies don't want to comply to your wishes, just don't buy or support their products. I bet that that sort of voting with your wallet will have a far greater chance of affecting the VR market than a petition like this ever will.
http://www.youtube.com/Noxxa
<dwangoAC> This is a TAS (...). Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects.
<Masterjun> I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits
<adelikat> In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help.
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I'll repeat my argument from the last submission as to why I won't accept this run.
Mothrayas wrote:
I have not yet seen this run, but I did see that testrun/WIP of some years back, and based on that, I expect this run to be completely awesome to watch.
However, as I already stated at the time, I am strongly against publishing this run or anything like it. Even if it does not affect its goal of in-game time, it is still a movie that relies on an external cheat code to work. This breaks a fundamental site rule, and I will make no exception to it.
TASVideos was founded on the principle of informing viewers what tool-assisted speedruns were and are, and that the "tools" involved were not cheat devices that directly modified the game data. Publishing this run would go directly against that very founding principle.
http://www.youtube.com/Noxxa
<dwangoAC> This is a TAS (...). Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects.
<Masterjun> I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits
<adelikat> In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help.
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Encode?
http://www.youtube.com/Noxxa
<dwangoAC> This is a TAS (...). Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects.
<Masterjun> I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits
<adelikat> In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help.
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FitterSpace wrote:
That's a much better description, alec. Can i still edit my description even after it's been claimed for judging?
Certainly. Just make sure to keep the judge's notes intact.
http://www.youtube.com/Noxxa
<dwangoAC> This is a TAS (...). Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects.
<Masterjun> I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits
<adelikat> In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help.
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I'm voting yes just for 10:22 alone.
http://www.youtube.com/Noxxa
<dwangoAC> This is a TAS (...). Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects.
<Masterjun> I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits
<adelikat> In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help.
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MUGG wrote:
Is there a Sokoban solver that can calculate the least steps needed to beat a level?
This Sokoban clone/editor has a solver and optimizer which were used for the Sokoban DS TAS. It says the solver is designed for small levels, but it may still help out.
http://www.youtube.com/Noxxa
<dwangoAC> This is a TAS (...). Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects.
<Masterjun> I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits
<adelikat> In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help.
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TASing is a hobby first and foremost. And much like most hobbies, it's entirely up to you how much time you can or want to invest into it on a daily basis. It doesn't really matter for the end result whether you TAS for 1 hour a day or 16 hours a day (except with taking 1 hour a day it would take much longer before you get to the end result, of course).
Just do what you are most comfortable with doing or whatever your schedule permits.
http://www.youtube.com/Noxxa
<dwangoAC> This is a TAS (...). Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects.
<Masterjun> I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits
<adelikat> In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help.
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I think you're confused as to what sort of files actually are input files.
.tasproj files are not input files, they are project files for TAStudio projects in BizHawk. .bk2 files are the actual input files for BizHawk movies.
Go to any movie publication on this site, and the first download option will be to download the emulator input file (e.g. bk2 for BizHawk, .fm2 for FCEUX, .dtm for Dolphin, .lsmv for lsnes, etc.). Those are all input files.
http://www.youtube.com/Noxxa
<dwangoAC> This is a TAS (...). Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects.
<Masterjun> I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits
<adelikat> In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help.
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If I recall correctly, Blue lags less than Red. Also, there's the touch screen for faster menuing.
http://www.youtube.com/Noxxa
<dwangoAC> This is a TAS (...). Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects.
<Masterjun> I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits
<adelikat> In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help.
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feos wrote:
Frame 100679 in my dump for whatever reason.
VBA-rr's frames do not match real (video) frames. Sometimes what VBA-rr considers one frame is actually longer than that, and appears as multiple frames in an encode (or can be noticed to take longer than an usual frame in real time).
For example, when a game does a lot of loading, VBA-rr considers it as one frame, even though it's actually longer than that.
This is probably what's causing the difference between the frame numbers in your dump and the one in VBA-rr given by Dashjump.
http://www.youtube.com/Noxxa
<dwangoAC> This is a TAS (...). Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects.
<Masterjun> I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits
<adelikat> In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help.
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We have a new judge in our staff, as Fog has taken on the judging role!
http://www.youtube.com/Noxxa
<dwangoAC> This is a TAS (...). Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects.
<Masterjun> I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits
<adelikat> In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help.
Also shows as 58357d9d6fac462b9fc7fd8194bf0e66 for both the ROM and the movie, oddly enough.
http://www.youtube.com/Noxxa
<dwangoAC> This is a TAS (...). Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects.
<Masterjun> I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits
<adelikat> In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help.
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feos wrote:
How does the hash of the rom used in this submission match the one I used, and it's not a bad dump, if its header it erroneous (neither is it marked [!])? The dump itself is maybe correct, but the whole .nes file isn't. I used the rom with the same filename and hash as the submission, and got it from GoodNES 3.14. I don't understand where your assumption is coming from.
Note: QuickNES plays it the same as fceux, NESHawk plays it correctly (but also desyncs).
I ran the movie in a ROM with the same hash and it worked right off the bat with no problems. You mentioned issues with the ROM and mentioned that you had to edit the ROM's header to make it work. Somewhere there has to be a difference.
http://www.youtube.com/Noxxa
<dwangoAC> This is a TAS (...). Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects.
<Masterjun> I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits
<adelikat> In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help.
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The hashes of the ROM used in this submission match with those on bootgod's NesCartDB. It is not a bad dump.
I'm assuming that it's actually whatever ROM feos got that is the bad dump here.
http://www.youtube.com/Noxxa
<dwangoAC> This is a TAS (...). Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects.
<Masterjun> I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits
<adelikat> In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help.
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PikachuMan wrote:
Until FPI releases a fix, all future TASes of this hack are suspended until further notice.
Says who?
http://www.youtube.com/Noxxa
<dwangoAC> This is a TAS (...). Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects.
<Masterjun> I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits
<adelikat> In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help.
You could hold right as the stage started, do four pretty easy jumps along the way, and reach the flag with a 1.85 seconds in-game time every time. There would be no distinction between TAS and real-time, as real-time with just a little bit of practice would always get 1.85, and a TAS would not be able to do it any faster than that.
(The first stage is actually laid out a bit different now for exactly this reason, to make it non-trivial to get a perfectly optimized time).
Now imagine if a whole game was made of stages of this nature. A real-time runner would practically always be able to score a perfect time, and a TAS would not be able to beat that. Then you have a game where TASing it offers no advantage.