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Ryushikaze wrote:
Question, BOF2 has a run effect. I can understand not using it in several areas so it doesn't trip battle RNGs (at least, it always seems to affect the RNG with the same seed values), but why not in 'safe' areas? Was that so you could maintain your RNG flow properly, or what?
Are you referring to running instead of walking in... well, all areas? On the SNES version, there was no run button, you could only walk. The run feature was added in the GBA version.
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The problem with chess is that the shortest possible game is already known, where Black wins on its second move. In chess notation, it's 1.f3 e5 2.g4 Qh4#. If I have to explain it, it's roughly as follows : White moves the pawn on the F file (where the white-squared bishop is) by one square, thus moving it to the f3 square. Then, Black moves the pawn on the E file (in front of the king) by two squares. Then, White moves the pawn on the G file (in front of the black-squared knight) two squares ahead. Finally, Black moves the queen to the h4 square which is checkmate. Here's what the checkmate looks like. http://yfrog.com/htcheckmateintwoj (Alternately, White can move the F pawn by two squares, and Black can move their pawn by only one square, it's the same thing in the end.) Obviously, a regular, strong chess engine would never fall for something like that (no strong chess engine would play one of these moves early in the game because they aren't good to begin with), but in a TAS, who knows what can happen... Any chess nut such as myself knows that. However, seeing "playaround" games would be interesting, at least to me. I'm sure someone can come up with a lot of creativity, whether the moves are actually good or not. In video games, such as on the NES or whatever, chess video games tend to be of a low playing level, since it's aimed at kids after all. Others have difficulty levels. It would be fine to have a category where the computer loses like on the link I provided (shortest possible checkmate), regardless of difficulty settings, but if it's just that, it's not very interesting. It would be nice to see something more, because personally, seeing a TAS end like that with nothing else would leave me on my appetite. Chess games would be good for playaround runs however. Well, for those that know chess well, that is.
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fruitbane wrote:
Only 3 fights... Glaghghghghg so much talking... so much flying around by spaceship... The run seems to bypass vast portions of the game, but god it's SOOOOO boring...
It's definitely the kind of game that is more enjoyable if you have played/beaten it before. Lute's scenario involve little storyline. It has only one dungeon, which is that last one. Everything else that can be done is optional. But it's obviously better to get various stuff to build your characters up before it... when it's not a TAS, that is. Half of the video is preparation for said dungeon, which is why it's so long and slow. Having beaten the game with all seven characters (and 2nd Division), I liked the run and all the subtleties that someone that has not played the game might not notice. On a sidenote, couldn't Mei-Ling take 3 more damage at the end? ^_^
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My mistake. I forgot that in BoF2 (as opposed to BoF1 and most turn-based RPGs, really), defense happens right at the beginning of the turn, regardless of the character's turn in battle (which is a system I always liked, and more RPGs should be like that). Anyway, I finished watching. It was amazing. Good job! I'll keep following your progress in the BoF1 run too.
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Published at last~ I've been waiting for this for months. You did an excellent job, Janus. Well done! I am currently watching it, and I'm almost an hour in. It's incredible so far. I know the battles won't be nearly as interesting once you get the dragons, but meh. Gotta do with it. I have two questions, and one comment. First of all, why did you save at the Ruins/Township (after the Coursair arc, before the Joker arc) before going back to Hometown to get Nina? You did not use death to escape faster from the Joker Clan cave (forgot the cave's actual name...), so why did you save there? Edit : Never mind, I got it before you even got there. To get back to the Ruins with Ray, after defeating Terapin. When walking from Wyndia to Capitan, why didn't you stop by the house (where the Owl Woods are) to reset the step counter rather than getting into a battle? At first glance, it seemed slightly faster. I might be wrong though. Yeah, I probably am wrong. And finally... you did something I spent a long time trying to do when I was younger, and never managed to achieve. Avoiding the Creon on the small island before Terapin. I was like, "OMG!" Edit : Two more questions. At 1:03:05 into the video, you had Rand attack himself for 1 damage (38 HP -> 37 HP). Then, Katt attacked him for 40. So he clearly did not need to attack himself, wasting a few frames for the attack's animation. Unless doing so manipulated luck to make Katt crit. Was it the case? Also, when in Wildcat Restaurant, you have the party change its leader two or three times while going through the rooms where you leave the equipment. Now, I don't remember if anything special happened if you did not do that (it's been so many years since I last played and can't remember such a detail for sure), so could you tell why you did that?
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p0rtal_0f_rain wrote:
Perhaps that's true. But what I'm concerned about is the hero's companions (Bo, Nina, Karn for example)
What about them? They all join the party with their default name - you don't get to name them when they join. You *can* change their name, but only by talking to an NPC in Prima. Only Ryu gets to be named by the player for the sake of a TAS, which is at the very beginning of the game.
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First time I see this topic. This is a really neat idea. Myself, I am looking for a game too. I used to rent it when I was somewhere around ten years old (I'm in my 20's now), and I haven't played it since - yet, I have been looking for it since back then. It was a racing game, either on NES or SNES. The first three cars would have a blue, green and red flag (if I recall correctly) on the minimap showing the track (but would otherwise look normal when you'd see them in your screen). That's... pretty much all I remember. Oh, and in the qualification part (I *think* there was one?), the other AI drivers would have names like C.Peters, A.Session or I.Furillo and such. The AI driver names would be shown like that (first name shown as just the first letter with a dot, but the full last name). I'm pretty sure the names I mentioned above were correct from the game (ie I made no mistake and remember them correctly), or close, but I know that various unlicensed games would make up fake names even if they simulate real sports, so that's why searching these names on Google gives me nothing related to the game... I looked for it a lot with Google in the past, but no luck...
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Atma wrote:
PSI Slime wrote:
As for the Gremlin, I still don't get what the fuss is about.
If you've ever played the game on a console or without savestates, you'd know.
C'mon now. I own the game on SNES since 199x. This is THE game I did low level games the most and even single character challenges. Gremlin is "hard" for the overall difficulty BoF poses, but not hard for any decent, experienced player. Admittedly, he tends to catch you off guard on his second wind when you fight him for the first time (and especially if Bo has the WolfHT, which is actually bad), but... well, unless you are out of herbs (and you shouldn't), it's really not hard to outheal his damage. He doesn't even do 30 damage to Ryu or Nina (or Bo if he's not equipped with the WolfHT). Herbs heal 50. Battle turns are fixed by the characters ACT stat, which means there's no randomness and getting hit twice in a row and things like that (like in Earthbound for example). That's not hard as long as you heal. BoF's difficulty until that point tends to make you forget that all three characters can be used to heal, not just Nina. Letting go of an offensive turn by healing with all three characters keeps you alive, and you can attack back in full force the next turn. Of course, this is not how it should be in a TAS, but I refer to a regular playthrough. Edit : After re-reading my message, I think it sounds a bit offensive or arrogant or something. I don't mean to sound that way. Personally, I'm a bit of a defensive player in RPGs, generally putting more emphasis on healing and staying alive, even if I win the fight slowly. This is because I always tend to fight few battles (or specifically a low level challenge, simply put), even if I'm playing the game for the first or second time. So, with that kind of play style, I'm used to pulling through strong bosses. That's the way I play in most RPGs, strategy games (including real strategy games, not just video games). I pull back on the offense when I think it's needed, and stay at full or near full HP at all times if possible (unless I know I don't need to). Anyway, I'm rambling now.
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Don't forget about your BoF2 run, too. I'm awaiting that one more than the BoF1 run. ^_^ Either way, I wish you the best of luck with BoF1. I know this game really well, but I'm more clueless than with BoF2 as to what to do and/or tricks to use to save time in a TAS... As for the Gremlin (even though you are past it already), I still don't get what the fuss is about. Just because a boss does a full party attack doesn't mean he's hard. It's not like herbs are expensive, and you heal for more than he does. Anyway, don't equip the WolfHT (from the Forest of Despair's fortress where you fight the General) on Bo, because he takes more damage from attacks such as the Gremlin's. Using Fry with Bo and acorns on him to heal his AP would be a strategy. Sorry, I don't know if you did that or not, or if it's fastest or not. Like with your BoF2 run, I can't watch the videos, so I can only wait until it's published. Gobi's shop might be useful, you can get various great items in it. I don't think the defensive items are worth it, but some weapons might be good. Here's a guide from GameFAQs for more info about it. http://www.gamefaqs.com/console/snes/file/563529/49556 Also, once you get Karn, you should go back to Winlan's castle and get the FlameRP. I'm not totally sure if the time it takes to do that is worth it, but using this item during battle does 90 damage and is reusable an infinite amount of times (like the Earth Key). I know there's other weapons that do that, but I admit that my knowledge about them is poor. The StarHR casts Comet when used in battle (400 damage on all), but you get that only at the very end. Will you go for the best ending? Ryu's dragon forms from the first shrine are extremely good for some time, enabling him to do a lot more damage than his regular attacks. I wish you the best of lucks.
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Some guy named Hue Le made a video of that. I'm sadly out of a link right now, but he made it. That wasn't TASed or anything. The player has to carefully manipulate the CPU's finishing order. Very hard to do.
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In another Final Fantasy Tactics topic, someone brought up what is generally referred to as "Straight Character Challenges" on the net. It consists of playing the game with all characters being only one single class (with no abilities from any other class, and no secondary skill sets from another class). Five Geomancers is kinda fun. Status effects <3. Here's my message from the other topic.
PSI Slime wrote:
A game where all characters use only one specific job throughout the entire game is most often referred to as a "Straight Character Challenge" throughout the net. There's some FAQs about it on the GameFAQs walkthroughs, and there's a player who completed every single one of them and ranked them in order of difficulty from his experience. I myself play them a lot. I have yet to beat any, but I managed to reach chapter 4 on a few of them (geomancer, dancer, archer, archer), intentionally avoiding some of the easy ones like black mage and especially ninja. http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/genmessage.php?board=197339&topic=47044410 These challenges are, imo, a lot more entertaining than speeding through the game the fastest possible way (calculators). They are all unique ways to play the game. Think of it like Super Mario Bros 2a, where Mario, Luigi, Princess and Toad are all playable characters. Now, imagine there was 20 characters instead of four, all with different playing styles like these four, and you'd be going through the game with only one of them throughout the whole game. I know that on top of the main run, there's a "Princess only" run already. And I'm sure that if there was a Toad only, Luigi only or Mario only run, it would be published as well. The difference here is that in FFT's Straight Character Challenge, it remains entertaining throughout the whole run, as all classes are very different in their own way, it feels less repetitive than the SMB2a example I came up with. I do hope to see FFT SCC TASes. (omg, acronyms)
Seriously, other than "normal games"... I am 100% sure that SCC's would be very entertaining to watch. There's also so many classes available! I'll also add the following link, an SCC guide. http://www.gamefaqs.com/console/psx/file/197339/11496
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Q : Which game is the hardest to TAS? A : Any game topic started in 2004 that have yet to have a published run. ;)
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ledauphinbenoit wrote:
I'm pretty sure you can get Bleu anytime after getting the whale. You just have to visit her house south of Highfort, then go to the magic school in Hometown. I remember this because I would always pick her up and then head to monster island for some mega-leveling.
I confirm that. The only prerequisite is talking to the ghosts at her home. The thing I cannot confirm is if you need to simply enter her house (doubt it), talk to the first ghost, talk to the second, or talk to both, to trigger the event that makes her join you.
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A game where all characters use only one specific job throughout the entire game is most often referred to as a "Straight Character Challenge" throughout the net. There's some FAQs about it on the GameFAQs walkthroughs, and there's a player who completed every single one of them and ranked them in order of difficulty from his experience. I myself play them a lot. I have yet to beat any, but I managed to reach chapter 4 on a few of them (geomancer, dancer, archer, archer), intentionally avoiding some of the easy ones like black mage and especially ninja. http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/genmessage.php?board=197339&topic=47044410 These challenges are, imo, a lot more entertaining than speeding through the game the fastest possible way (calculators). They are all unique ways to play the game. Think of it like Super Mario Bros 2a, where Mario, Luigi, Princess and Toad are all playable characters. Now, imagine there was 20 characters instead of four, all with different playing styles like these four, and you'd be going through the game with only one of them throughout the whole game. I know that on top of the main run, there's a "Princess only" run already. And I'm sure that if there was a Toad only, Luigi only or Mario only run, it would be published as well. The difference here is that in FFT's Straight Character Challenge, it remains entertaining throughout the whole run, as all classes are very different in their own way, it feels less repetitive than the SMB2a example I came up with. I do hope to see FFT SCC TASes. (omg, acronyms)
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In some cases, using the optimal strategy for speed is a lot more boring to watch. A prime example (at least as far as I'm concerned) is Final Fantasy 6j/FF3a. As soon as Setzer joins the group, it's mostly all about using Joker Doom to kill every boss. And that's where the entertainment went downhill. Yes, it's faster, but it's also the reason I stopped watching the movie two or three bosses after Setzer joins and never bothered to watch the movie again. While I watched every other RPG I know multiple times (FF4j/FF2a, Earthbound, Chrono Trigger, etc). And I know I'm not the only one who feels this way. In the topic author's case, it's Breath of Fire 2. Using the dragon attacks on bosses is a bit similar to Joker Doom in FF6j/3a, which would detract a lot from the entertainment if he went for speed (using dragons) rather than entertainment (killing bosses as fast as possible, but without using dragons). The major problem in this case is that using dragons is not some sort of trick, game flaw or something that can only be used thanks to frame-precision inputs like in FF6 - in BoF2's case, they are regular attacks that the hero, Ryu, can use. It drains all his AP (ability points - basically, magic points) to do massive damage, and then he simply has to use AP restorative items with other characters to cast it again if said boss isn't dead already. It's kinda boring, but it's something just anyone can do without fail, no need for a TAS to do that. So it's even more debatable whether it should be accepted as a TAS to *not* use them, while I would tend to think that a FF6j/3a TAS without using Joker Doom would have a chance to be published if enough people wanted a run without abusing that move. But I'm afraid that, like with FF6, playing the game while using the dragon attacks would make the overall entertainment value drop tremendously once he starts obtaining the dragon skills. Anyway, that's just my view on it. I'm well aware that speed is the main goal.
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As far as I'm concerned, I was totally into the FF6 TAS until Setzer joined. Then it became boring to me, and despite trying to convince myself several times to rewatch the run later on, I never got myself to do it. Yes, cheap attacks against every boss, such as Joker Doom in FF6 or Ryu's dragons in BoF2 are big entertainment killers. But... you have to deal with this... the aim is fastest completion, after all. I mean, I really would rather see the boss battles not be plagued with dragon abuse, really. But that's not really the aim of the site. Which is a bit of a shame ; I'm pretty sure that runs that trade a lot of time for much more entertainment in battles (not using dragons) would be rejected. As for naming the hero "A"... well, I personally prefer default names for TASes, but I have no problem with such names. It's kinda part of the game being a TAS, after all. I am okay with it. I mean, it doesn't tick me off like it used to.
Atma wrote:
Getting the ingredients required to make wisebl's takes considerably more time than it takes to just use wfruit's instead. I recall that you need fish for it, and I'm pretty certain that each time you can only get one wisebl, not two.
There's a villager named Daiye that can be recruited in house #6 who sells various types of fish, including Tuna, to cook WiseBL's. I have no idea if cooking WiseBL's would be faster than simply using W.Fruits (and I actually doubt it), but I thought I'd mention it. Then again, that means you'd have to recruit tenants in the first phase, and build the second phase of town, which is time-consuming. Tons of useful information like that can be found in Ben Siron's Handbook at http://www.gamefaqs.com/console/snes/file/563530/5436.
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I know I'm no help in the progress whatsoever, but I just wanted to tell you that you have my total support on your run. BoF2 is one of my favorite games of all times. I haven't watched the progress, I never managed to make it work. The only emulator that seems to work on my computer is ZSNES, so I can't watch progresses despite wanting to for years (I was a lurker for a long time). But after reading comments, I wanted to reply to something.
janus wrote:
Atma wrote:
5) You take Bow alone to trouts mansion. Wouldn't taking Ryu also be faster?
of course it is. But speedruns are also about spectacular ;)
I disagree with that. If you name Ryu "A" to save frames, I don't see why you'd use Bow alone in Trout's House. Unless Bow can OHKO everything, and I doubt Shot works against Trout, then bringing Ryu in would make the Trout battle go significantly faster, wouldn't it? And, yes, drop items should *always* be avoided, unless the dropped item makes you gain frames later. Even though obtaining a Medusa Shield after killing only one N.Rider (random example) looks impressive, if it doesn't end up saving time later on, then it should be discarded. As for the drop item against Baba, I don't see how a Stamina would ever be useful in TAS. After all, you manipulate things, you can manipulate not to get hit. Well, most of the time, anyway - many attacks are unavoidable, but you can manipulate enemies not to use their strongest attacks, or their attacks with the longest animation. Anyway, I am definitely looking forward to see this TAS completed. You have my total support~
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eternaljwh wrote:
PSI Slime wrote:
Too bad the series just never was translated to english originally.
First was.
Yes, my bad. No game after the first of the series was, however, which is a shame.
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The original version, Langrisser II, is on Genesis. Der Langrisser, on SNES, is a remake with many differences, the key one being the different paths you can take during the game's story. In the original version, you stayed with the heroes of light, which is obviously normal. In the remake, you get a choice to join the empire on scenario 7, then to join the evil side later on, and later on, to go independant and fight all three sides by yourself. All four paths give different scenarios, stories, and give insight and backgrounds on every character. This is the main difference, although there's also updated graphics, music, etc. The game was also made easier in this version. Also, Jessica is never a playable character on Der Langrisser, whereas she was in Langrisser 2. This (Der Langrisser on SNES) is the most popular version of the game. (I think) All games of the Langrisser series have been remade on at least one more console. For example, Langrisser IV and V were both originally on the Saturn, but they were also remade for the PSX - I played the PSX version of these two. Too bad the series just never was translated to english originally.
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A unofficial english patch has been released over a year and a half ago at http://elsallia.com/Games/DerLangrisserSFAM#Patches. I've played through two different paths completely so far, and everything works well, except very minor bugs here and there like the wrong character's portrait being shown during a conversation in one later scenario at one point. Nothing major. Der Langrisser is one of my favorite games (if only it wasn't so easy though), and this patch has become the reference to this game. There's four different paths you can take (light, empire, evil, independant) which leads to different scenarios and the story changes, as well as the characters you get. This, along with being able to chose two different classes (with different stat growths, movement, spells...) everytime you reach level 10, makes for incredible replay value. If only the game wasn't so easy, though. At first, I think it would be better to make Erwin a Hawk Knight from his answers in the intro question test, due to, well, flying and reaching the enemy really fast. See this link for information on what stats and spells Erwin gains, and class he becomes, depending on your answers in the intro questionary. http://www.gamefaqs.com/console/snes/file/588277/13056 Also, don't forget to turn battle animations off in the game settings, since this is a TAS. Der Langrisser's music is top notch. Oh, and did I mention it's too easy? But still, it would make for a great run, I am sure. I'm looking forward to see someone give it a try. P.S. : Be sure to read the readme. The game bugs on SNES9X. However, there's a fix with ZSNES through changing some sound setting.
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