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Cpadolf wrote:
Yeah GT was fought first. If you Crystal Flash during his death animation, very little time is wasted by the Crystal Flash. And I think Screw Attack should be taken before GT. It's probably slightly slower than taking it afterwards, but it makes it possible to quickly take damage several times from GT before he wakes up so you won't have to waste time doing that during the fight. If it was possible to manage your energy in such a way that you enter his room with so little energy that only one or two hits are needed to make a Crystal Flash possible, it might be worth to take Screw Attack later.
As far as I know the E-tank in the light bugs room would still be taken after Ridley. That was discussed because of the possibility of taking the PB to the room in the upper right with a Crystal Flash to avoid a detour, but it turned out slower.
And the two last enemies in the WS attic can indeed be taken out by blue suit echoes. I think I wrote that in an edit to that post.
Yea I figured you fought him first it just seem like the logical way to do it. You grab the Super Missile Pack before the fight, right? Yea I didn't even think about the Screw Attack Cancel that's a great idea depending on how your energy that is at that point!!!!!!!
Oh so that's what the discussion was about. Pretty good idea but, yea it seems slower. I think grabbing the E-Tank early would faster for in game time though.
Oh nice you can save a Super or 2 there. The way you kill the enemies is insane though. Speaking of the WS Attic room is it possible to PB then Grapple the spark and do the room with about the same speed in order to save some Missiles and Super Missiles or will the enemy placement be a problem?
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You fought the GT first I'm guessing? 9 seconds faster DAMN, unoptimized nonetheless!!!!!! That's just fucking crazy. Would grabbing Screw Attack first be faster? I would doubt that it would be but, its still worth testing I guess. I didn't even think it would be faster for 100% but, clearly it is by a large margin of time no less!!!!!
Also I think Taco and Kriole tested that because of a 100% RBO route possibility. Because apparently you can't activate the Statue without Space Jump, killing Draygon or something like that.
This route just keeps getting crazier and crazier as time goes on. I'm remember you guys discussing this a few pages back I believe. That the Energy Tank room with the Lightning Bugs would be faster in game time if you go there before Ridley, correct? I would definitely see it saving in game time but, it will hurt the real time aspect of the game due to another door transition. I'd rather see the in game time saver anyway. So that would make another route change for the 100%. Man, things just keep getting more and more interesting.
Also with that WS Attic room strategy. Wouldn't that Ki Hunter die from the Blue Suit Echos instead of the Super Missile + Missile or does taking damage from that spark make you go through him?
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P.JBoy wrote:
P.JBoy wrote:
lxx4xNx6xxl wrote:
Is it possible for you to make a file that lists for the Health and Weaknesses for the normal enemies in the game. If you can I would greatly appreciate it.
Sure, I'll add it after the exams; until then, here's this:
Thank you, this was very informative!!! Its good to know if any other enemies have certain weaknesses to other weapons. Anyway thank you again, I really appreciate the effort you put in to making this!!!!
Also Cpadolf those .smv's were amazing!!!!
Fuck saving ammo, that was just flat out disgusting!!!!!
Anyway there's probably no use for that Pseudo Screw Attack + Charge Beam glitch unfortunately but, it is cool. Hopefully there will be some use for it somewhere in the run but, I doubt it.
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bahamete wrote:
Thanks for everyone's input! We didn't assume that everyone would want the same thing so we used our best judgement on the goals.
Here's what we're currently talking about but we need to speak to Kaizoman first, anyway:
Avoid Start + Select and don't abuse death.
We're most concerned about this goal as we don't all agree on it, but I'll write it down anyway.
The only reason we'd use either of these is returning to levels to get a goal-sphere in reserve. We wanted to exclude many map transitions and thus these two goals remove the possibility, but allow for chuck-eat maybe 5 or 6 times in the run.
As for the secondary effects, we're unsure right now.
Use stun bug.
We're including this bug because the general view seems to view it as entertaining, and it saves time. Besides, it will only be used up to 5 times maximum.
Get 96 original exits.
Exclude fake exits, such as using goal sphere to get exits not originally programmed.
We hope these goals are at least somewhat clear. We want to avoid being arbitrary but maximise entertainment.
I agree with all of these conditions. I'll be looking forward to this run it should be incredibly entertaining, Good Luck on the run guys!!!!!!!!!!!
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I don't think it damages bosses at all to be honest. Also the Pseudo Screw Attack only does 200 Damage no matter what beams are equipped.
Also this can be effective in your new route strategy in Pink Brinstar on the first hopper to save a Super Missile. It should kill the Big Hopper as well allowing more optimal drops and conserving more ammo in the process.
P.JBoy wrote:
If you wanna get more TASers hero of the day, you gotta start adding to the SuperMetroidTricks wiki page. It'd be great to have a section for the little micro-optimisations that happen throughout gameplay
I would love to see the tricks page updated cause so many new tricks where discovered since it was last updated!!!!!
P.J.Boy thanks for making that Dump File for Super Metroid Weapon Damage and Boss Health. Is it possible for you to make a file that lists for the Health and Weaknesses for the normal enemies in the game. If you can I would greatly appreciate it.
Also Hero I must say TASing sounds interesting. I'm more focused on my Console Run for SDA though. Plus I'm more of an idea man anyway. I will try to help in anyway I can though. Because every Super Metroid TAS helped me to understand the game even more as well as giving birth to ideas that people didn't think was possible to pull off on Console. I don't know if I have the patients to TAS honestly but, I might look into it when all my runs are done just because the game is so interesting. Thanks for recommending me to try TASing it.
BTW Reeve I think you should start TASing it. I honestly think you have potential to become a great Super Metroid TASer. You have great ideas and have as much knowledge about the game as I do and you actually TAS really good for someone without much experience in TASing.
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I really think this could be useful somewhere. Maybe this will justify early Charge Beam depending on how useful it can be. I believe this technique could be used to clear a rooms with multiple enemies as well as powerful enemies given the opportunity. It could possibly add even more flare to the run as well.
The first one is what happens when its demonstrated on a powerful enemy which normally takes 1 Super and a Missile or 4 Missiles. You have 1 Frame to shoot and kill the enemy before you get hit. Could be useful against the Hoppers in Pink Brinstar for example instead of wasting a Super Missile.
http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/1718690956/Pseudo%20Screw%20Attack%20Beam%201.smv
This is the same technique just used against a weaker enemy. You have 2 Frames to be able to release a Charge Beam after he dies.
http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/1620504923/Pseudo%20Screw%20Attack%20Beam%202.smv
It would be cool to Pseudo Screw Attack an enemy and boost as you release a charged shot to another enemy in front or above/below you.
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Eye Of The Beholder wrote:
It will, for performing the Stand-up glitch in Mother Brain. I don't remember any other place that a pause menu is needed. It would if you had to disable something like ice for example, but as it's not going to be collected earlier...
I was thinking Power Wave Combos if Spazer isn't delayed and stuff like that but, yea there's probably no need for Start Menus.
BTW its amazing how many optimizations were found since Hero sparked up the topic of 100%. There's been some really incredible stuff posted so far I hope it keeps this pace up!!!!!!!
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I honestly think early Wave will prove to be faster given the amount of uses it has. Especially for ammo conservation. Wrap Around Glitches will definitely save sometime in areas and Bosses can definitely be taken care of much quicker.
Some questions arise with the possible route change. Will early Charge Beam prove faster? For instance will Spazer be delayed or grabbed normally on route? Is there going to be any Start Menus to save In-Game Time?
I actually prefer that Start Menus be used if it can save at least 2.5 seconds of In-Game Time. That's just my opinion though.
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It would be nice if someone can find a way without Spazer or without Charge Beam. Even better if they can do it with out both but, unfortunately its probably not possible at least not without the Charge Beam.
Honestly Wrap Around shots are weird without the Charge Beam. I don't fully understand how they work. Especially with only Wave Beam. I'm sure speed as well as the distance or the height from which you shoot the beam will likely be a key factor in certain Wrap Around Glitches being possible or not.
Edit: I finally found out how to do this on NTSC. I'm not sure if this is known or not because I just found this out now. For some reason when your running in water if you let go of run you jump higher out of the water. Also I could be wrong but, I also think Samus is running faster. Whats nice about this is you don't even need the Wave Beam. So if early Wave proves to be slower which I somehow doubt, this strategy could be used in its place. That is if its faster then Cpadolf's original way which it probably isn't. It was still cool to know it was possible though.
This .smv was done on the SNES9x v1.53.
WS before the E-Tank
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Reeve you are the fucking man!!!!!!!!!!!
Here is a optimized, but could be more optimized version of what this room should look like. I did this in real time. I got the Wrap Around 3 times but, I accidentally re-record over the first 2 I got. It was a pain in the ass and unfortunately way to hard to do for console. Its fucking incredible for TAS conditions though, Enjoy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/517593775/WS%20Attic%20Wrap%20Around%20%28Not%20Optimized%29.smv
Edit: I don't think there is a way to hit that door with out charge beam but, I could be wrong. Also it will be very difficult to find one with just the Charged Wave Beam. A regular Spazer/Wave shot will be hard enough to find if possible but, the Wave alone will be a Nightmare to find. Again this if its even possible for a normal shot to hit that door.
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Can you find that video Reeve? Because I never heard of anything like that before.
Did anyone test if a Wrap Around Glitch is possible above the ship in the ET Room?
Also nobody ever answered me before but, has a Wrap Around on a left door been demonstrated before? My guess is no but, I could be wrong. Hopefully I'm wrong. If it is possible I wonder what special conditions would have to be met in order to do it?
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As far as the Gravity Suit area is concerned it would probably save frames Real Time wise, but definitely not In-Game. I prefer In-Game over Real Time any day!!!
Also would it be faster if possible to drop a Power Bomb right away then as you break the block shoot and morph through? Hopefully Samus will have enough time to catch that beam. Wave could definitely be beneficial because of that. Actually while the Power Bomb is exploding can you shoot and Mockball in that hole? Because if you can you should definitely be able to catch your beam to break some of the blocks.
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The question is has the Wrap Around ever be done on the left side? I don't think its possible but, if it is possible it would probably require a certain run speed or something like that. I would hope its possible because it could open up some interesting strategies.
Edit: Also is possible to Wrap Around Glitch the door in the room where you grab the Energy Tank above the Ship? I'm sure that would save a few frames.
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Yea like you said there should be a sweet spot some where. I would like to know where Behemoth did it on PAL because it could give a general idea of where to do it.
Also it not that Wrap Around Glitches are different on PAL because the same ones that he does can also be done on NTSC. Its because of the time it takes to fully charge the Beam is drastically different on the PAL version. So some like my Wrap Around Glitch above the ship he does differently on PAL because of the Beam not fully charged at the time to hit the door consistently.
Edit: You must reveal the spot Behemoth so they can break the shit out of this game even more. Also quick question did you open it with a Charge Shot or a normal beam shot?
Also hero will that technique that I explained before about the Charge Beam be of any use? Also did you ever get that trick to work in the WS Attic room after the robots? If I remember correctly you said the enemies get in the way. Hopefully Behemoth's Wrap Around can be useful there as well!!!!!
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Yea nice .smv Reeve!!! I didn't even see it in your post before it was hiding from me. It looks much more fluid that way and its a few frames faster like Cpadolf said so that's even more of a plus!!!!
Also Behemoth where exactly did you get the shot to Wrap Around in the WS Attic room?
Is the SM64 team going to use that route for the full 120-star run? Or do they have to collect 100 coins with that star?
They actually collect the 100 Coins with the Red Coins. I only know that because they have a bunch of WIP's Comparison Videos on their Nico Page that are incredible to watch. I recommend everyone to watch them!!!!
http://com.nicovideo.jp/video/co198070
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I've tried Crocomire and the Wrecked Ship Attic room but, I couldn't find any success unfortunately. :(
I'm sure they're possible though. I'm not experienced at all with TASing so I was trying in real time. I'm sure there is a way for it to work though. Also I don't have Angle Down so I couldn't try things from a crouching position.
Hero have you found a way to hit the Wrecked Ship Attic room with a Charged Shot by any chance? If so could you please post it cause I would love to see that!!!!
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Early Charge Beam would be cool if the Phantoon Fight proves faster. It would also be nice to see something new against Phantoon for a change.
Also would it be faster if you can you charge shot Kraid kind of like in the RBO just without Plasma Beam. Maybe Charge Shot, 2 Missiles and 2 Supers. I'm pretty sure that's the correct amount of damage. Unless you can kill him with one less Missile or something. If so would it be faster?
I'm not sure if you guys knew this already or if it can even prove useful but, it would be interesting to see done in a TAS nonetheless. When you Pseudo Screw Attack and Shoot a Frame after (maybe more I'm not entirely sure how many) as your hitting an Enemy it will release a Full Charge Beam Shot. My brother (Sunffit86/Snuffilmz) was the first person who has done it to my knowledge. I've also done it myself a few times on Console as well. I'm not sure if anybody even knew this was possible or not. Because I never heard anyone mention it before. It might actually prove useful in a TAS because of ammo conservation and it can damage multiple powerful enemies like in the attic room and maybe other areas as well.
hero of the day wrote:
Is anyone willing to test for wrap around shots with the spazer/wave uncharged? Rooms of interest would be as follows:
1. crocomire room
2. wrecked ship attic
3. crateria landing site (from the top, near where the left door is located)
4. possibly removing the shootable blocks on the left after the gravity statue chozo releases samus
Finding these are an absolute pain. It seems that the only way I have found wrap around locations, is by spamming shots into the right hand side of the screen at an angle. If anyone wants to try, please record your attempt in an smv. It does not have to look pretty, but it would give us a definitive answer that these shots are possible.
1) Not sure on this one.
2) I have tried this many times but, I couldn't even find one with a Charge Shot. Something tells me its possible though.
3) I'm the first to find this for Console but, only with the Charged Plasma/Wave. I couldn't even find a way for Charged Spazer/Wave to work. I don't even think this is possible without Charge Beam anyway.
4) Are you even talking about a Wrap Around Glitch here? If so I'm very confused because why would a Wrap Around Glitch be needed here?
I will test some of these for you later hero and see if I have any luck.
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Spazer/Wave Wrap Around Glitches are definitely possible in places without charge beam but, I'm not sure where they could be useful. Also I'm sure you already knew that shots can be Wrapped Around with downward angled shots as well.
The only use for this was on console. There is one you can do for TAS later in the run but, its more for show. You can get Crocomire's with a Downward Angle shot as well but, I'm not sure if you can do it without charge beam. I've done it with plasma beam before but, I'm not sure if I was charged or not.
I'm not sure if Charge Beam would save any time in a TAS but, it can definitely save ammo. Sure in some places it might save time but, it still probably won't be justified.
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Eye Of The Beholder wrote:
I think there's a missunderstanding. What i said it was slower was the smv i posted, cause even though you have to wait for the PB to clean the way, the time lost jumping up to charge the shinespark and then jumping down again takes too much time (i think around 6 seconds just for the trip up and down, not counting the time to charge the shinespark.
Yea I'm not really sure where you where going with that.
Cpadolf wrote:
There is enough time to place the bomb at the blocks, unmorph, run to the corner, start charging the shinespark and get past the destructible floor before the powerbomb blast gets there. So that's not a problem.
Ah, that makes a lot of sense now thanks.
I have an idea actually on what Reeve posted before. Instead of Blue Balling through the blocks in Red Brinstar after the Noob Bridge. Can you Super Short Charge from the edge of that door and get a charge and break the blocks at the same time like the Energy Tank room in Crateria above the ship and if its possible would it be faster?
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I don't understand why you think its slow because you have to wait for those blocks to be destroyed no matter what. Also you won't have Screw Attack at the time because in a new 100% run you would go early X-Ray. Plus the Speed Preservation Technique (Speed Keeping) will be used to invoke a Shine Spark.
Quick question though it might sound stupid. Do you have to Power Bomb the door earlier and the Power Bomb the blocks on the way back? Because I tried to get the door open without destroying the blocks, but I couldn't find a spot. It was either one or the other. I didn't test it very well, but I figured I should ask anyway.
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Eye Of The Beholder wrote:
Edit 5: Oh man, that idea hero posted about getting a Shinespark from Ridley should be tested to see if it really works or not. If Ridley really give Samus a free shinespark, i have an interesting idea.
I have an interesting idea too, I wonder if its the same. I was thinking what would a Shine Spark do to Ridley? If it damages him a lot you could just Crystal Flash early and let Ridley grab you get a Blue Suit (if its possible) and Shine Spark him to death.
Also nice .smv Cpadolf. I didn't even think about Power Bombing them to open the door. So even more add to the list of where Wave will save time.
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Speaking of Green Brinstar after the Pink Brinstar clean up. Instead of jumping and balling into the pipe to grab the Missile Pack. Would it be faster if possible to CWJ off the pipe below and mockball into that pipe?
Also by doing that you can probably kill the enemy in the pipe below and grab a drop as you CWJ off the pipe.
