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Abahbob wrote:
So I just recently updated to 3.0-766 (yesterday) and made an IL TAS of TWW. Sadly, when I try to play it back on any A/V sync hack, I keep getting corrupted Memory Card errors... I could really use some help on this one. It's actually a good, not TWW Crap TAS for once. I decided to update since I have to restart the TAS and using the old build was getting kinda annoying.
Oh, also, I know for sure that the A/V sync hack will fix the audio, because it has worked on previous versions.
766 from dolphin-emulator.com, or from natt's avsync build? This could be relevant.
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CoolKirby wrote:
kirbymastah wrote:
Hmmm CoolKirby, I may take you up on your offer to learn how to TAS this game. I'll have to find the ISO myself, but any tips on how to get started? I think it'd just be fun to start off with doing some of the challenge rooms.
Tips on TASing, you mean? And it's great you're starting work on this game. Since the game requires you to use the Wii Remote, you'll need the special wiimote-fix build of Dolphin: 32-bit, 64-bit.
Then you'll need to make sure dual core mode and idle skipping are unchecked, and the DSP is set to LLE and not HLE. Other than that, you should be all set to start TASing.
Also disable eurgb60, and check for desyncs often. This build is known to desync, at varying frequencies depending on the game, and have not been tested extensively.
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Ahh so the desyncs only end up happening in specific spots and it just causes problems for a full run and not level-by-level?
Can't really say after just a few desyncs. None of the desyncs i had happened when playing back from a save state at the start of the level. I also almost never saw desyncs from save state even before wiimote sync was really fixed, which when played from the start, averaged a desync basically every single time a desync would have been noticed, and probably more too.
I'll take a shot at those levels, but don't expect anything soon.
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Three levels I'd like to see a TAS of are 5-3, 5-T and 8-2, because I don't think my current strategies for them are really the best for each level, but since you have desync issues I'm not really expecting anything.
Do you just want me to find the best strategies, or actually tas them? I could do it a lot faster and easier if i'm not trying to perfectly optimize everything when it's obvious what the best thing to do is.
It doesn't really desync much/at all when playing back from save state. If it doesn't matter if it syncs from the start or not, desyncs aren't really a problem. You're overestimating how much it desyncs anyway. I fully tased the first two levels 3-4 times each, without a single desync, then got 2-3 in one spot, and stopped trying.
I did a few runs, and I found that 2 kills (second goomba, final Parakoopa) and a 407 got the Overworld to go from bottom left, to top left, to top right. But it wasn't guaranteed to manipulate it back to top left so I ended up with a 50-50 chance of it attacking Mario.
Was the clock always at the same time when you killed each enemy?
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Do enemy kills throughout the world count? (Like would kills in 1-1 and 1-2 make a noticeable difference?) Are all enemies equal? (Like Hammer Bros/Koopa/Goomba?) Do the kills transfer over worlds (for any% mostly)?
No idea about any of this. I only tested it briefly using a save state at the very end of 1-4.
Also does that mean the pattern is set once you reach the overworld
Correct. Once you reach the overworld, you cannot actually manipulate them, though you can move around to force them into a favorable position, if you know which way they're going to move.
If you find another trigger that would be nice,
Er, no it wouldn't. If it's just enemy kills and time that effects the rng, manipulating them is plausible. You could just make sure to kill exactly the same enemies every time, and as long as you get the same time on most levels, you could just memorize patterns for each set of times you typically get. Granted, if each specific levels' time matters (rather than just the total sum of time taken), you wouldn't realistically be able to do that unless you got exactly the same time on at least 3 levels, but otherwise it could be done, albeit with difficulty. If there are other factors that can change the rng, there's just no way you're going to be able to do it.
Things that should be tested to see how plausible it is to manipulate them in real time:
- Does anything else affect the rng?
- Does the rng advance in a set order, and exactly the same way each second and enemy kill, or other event that affects the rng?
If the second is how it works, you should be able to just kill the same amount of enemies, and take the same amount of total time, without regard to which enemies are killed, or how much time each particular level takes. If it's more complex than that, i'd abandon the idea of manipulating them.
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So no consistency at all?
Just tried once, when i started 1-T, the goomba was on the bottom left, then moved up afterwards. After beating 1-4, it moved right, then followed behind me as i got right passed him.
I took the same route as you, and my times were mostly similar up until 1-4, which was much slower (406).
What i've tried so far, using a save state right before the pole:
Hitting the pole at different points - makes no difference.
Waiting different amounts of time after the level ends, before moving right - makes no difference.
Killing the parakoopa before the pole - changes the goomba. I can still get to the next level fine, but if i go up instead of to 1-6, the goomba goes up, instead of right like before.
Delaying getting the pole by 1 in game second - the goomba goes right, then down, hitting me. I was able to reach 1-6 by going up, down, up, down, right, or up, left, right, down, right. Doesn't seem to matter exactly how long it delay, or how i do so, so long as the clock says 405, the goomba moves around the same way.
I only tested it briefly, but my guess is that killing enemies and the timer can affect it. The exact frames, what precisely you do, and your score clearly do not affect it at all.
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I'll try a few things when i've got some time. No promises though.
Which goomba is it? What levels did you do and in which order? What was your timer/points on the level before (were they always the same?)? Do you have a video of any of these attempts?
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TASeditor wrote:
It's accually possible.
In theory, yes. But realistically, using only what he has available to him right now, he could spend 10 years on it nonnstop, and still not finish it.
TASeditor wrote:
But Dolphin might crash a lot.
Crashes aren't really a problem. More significant problems include no m+ emulation and/or constant desyncs with unstable save states.
TASeditor wrote:
And it don't have to run at full-speed for TASing.
No, but it's generally a waste of time if you can't even get half speed. Especially if you have to constantly play back from the start to check for desyncs.
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Odongdong wrote:
STBM wrote:
I met a problem with going straight in Billy Hatcher, it's a bit hard to explain so I made a video to show it :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OslohqpOjVA
What should I do ?
How about changing the camera angle instead of player's direction?
I think SM64 DS run used that trick.
This is pretty much how i always move when playing games. Just hold forward and adjust the camera to change my angle. It often allows much greater precision.
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Fusik wrote:
I'm curious if real time speedrunners will use it in 100%. And unfortunately I don't think there will be a 100% TAS in work for some time so we don't have to worry about that yet :(
It doesn't work on 1.2, so most probably won't, as that is what version the VC uses.
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I've never broken less than 2 bricks, in 10 tries or so.
The position definitely needs to be precise. It's always 1 frame that you can do it on, unless you're barely moving (would it even be faster to slow down that much?) and the specific frame varies by how fast you're moving.
You can avoid hitting the next brick by holding left after breaking the two bricks. Obviously you lose some speed doing that, but it still looks like the best thing to do.
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Those pictures are all the frame i jumped and let go of down on. The slower you are moving the later you need to jump.
I'd guess it saves maybe half a second, but not sure without timing it, which i'm not doing now. I definitely wouldn't bother with it for real time. 1 frame tricks (even better, you have to press one button, and let go of another on one frame) that barely save time are pretty silly.
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raikerz wrote:
This is pretty sweet last question though, when doing it at full speed did you hit a brick that you didn't break on the way down? Losing momentum there would suck, probably still be faster, but I'm curious.
Yes i did, but i also did when doing it slower.
Sucks about the desync, hopefully they fix it soon, I'd like to see a TAS of this game mostly because I'm sure my time could be improved vastly. On the plus side maybe I will end up beating the TAS to a few times while you guys have desync problems :D
It's not going to get fixed. The only reason wiimote recording works at all is because some guy came out of nowhere with a commit description of "test" that fixed a bunch of things. He hasn't committed anything in 3 months, and no one else cares at all about dolphin tasing.
I did several tests with the intro skip, sadly the earliest I could get the autosave was right when the screen turns black after they all run off the screen, resetting and getting back into the game ended up taking a little longer then waiting for me. The wii I tested this on though is extremely old I got it right after the Wii was released, so maybe a newer one would load everything faster? Idk if it would be extreme enough to do so.
It should save a second or two before that.
Like I said earlier, based on the picture it looks like the over/under positioning doesn't matter, as long as there is a block above and below the trick will work,
I'll try it some more later. Any other ideas of what could cause it to be a 1 frame trick, if not the position?
when you guys can get the problems to stop :D
The desyncs weren't that bad tbh, i just didn't really feel like dealing with any. Maybe i'll try going back to it soon.
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raikerz wrote:
Does the positioning of the blocks above/below you matter at all?
I would assume that is why there is only 1 frame you can do it on.
Not sure if you've gone this far into testing
I got a few desyncs when redoing 1-1, and pretty much stopped caring. When i started testing and working on tasing i thought it was desync free.
Also a few other things you pointed out that I tested: The intro reset for an RTA does not appear to save time, maybe with a better Wii it would, but when I tested it I could only get it to be a couple of seconds slower then just waiting.
Are you sure you reset at the right time?
Another thing is the level starts, We cannot do the ~3 second level intro that the TAS has for normal levels, only for cannon/mushroom houses/overworld monsters. I think this has to do with processing power, but neither ewaller nor I could get the intro shorter for regular levels, regardless thanks for that my any% currently can save time with the piranha plant and 5-Cannon.
Presumably it's because it's still loading. It probably allows you to dismiss the screen after a certain frame, but only if it's done loading what it needs to. You could probably test this by running the game from an hdd. I don't have access to a wii anymore, or i'd just try that myself.
That's the frame i jumped on.
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I'm voting meh. I'm not against this being published as is, but some things didn't look that well optimized. I think you should try to improve it either way.
Syncs on dolphin r c1a684bd44a1da6df1ef640ea63ea20969602fb2 (3.0-763)
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You know, i think dolphin doesnt correctly count the number of rerecords.
http://code.google.com/p/dolphin-emu/source/detail?r=a488b2c0cab861ca93a02ebf05a0dd813618bf84
i fixed that in april.
The only time rerecords aren't counted are if you save state, close the emulator, then load an older save state. Unless you did that a lot, the rerecord count should be more or less accurate. Abahbob's experience is with an older version, in which a seperate counter was stored for each save state, so loading anything but the last one you saved would result in every rerecord since that save state was made (+1 for each time that particular save state was loaded) being discarded. Everything after 3.0-590 master, or 3.0-619 more-save-fixes has this fix.
That's the frame i jumped on.
