Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Player
(128)
Joined: 12/3/2011
Posts: 1579
Changing it now because of ONE submission that switched versions because of a convention used by a community of ONE game for a site that has to take into consideration LOTS of games seems too euphoric. I'm for accepting it as an exception.
As per what you quoted, the reasons go beyond just this run.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Player
(128)
Joined: 12/3/2011
Posts: 1579
Spider-Waffle wrote:
rog wrote:
Spider-Waffle wrote:
I'll start the home page for Wiiemu2000, a Wii emulator that properly emulates the VC, fully compatible with VC2000, and VC2000, a VC emulator that properly emulates the N64 being emulated by VC just as accurately as dolphin.
If it properly emulates it, then sure, why not?
But it's not going to.
So what's constitutes a proper emulation? Because you could say the same about Dolphin. It seems very subjective and arbitrary.
It has to at least try to emulate it, instead of just emulating something completely different instead.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Player
(128)
Joined: 12/3/2011
Posts: 1579
Sub 1 hour is definitely impossible. I had saved all of one minute before this boss (plus ~25 seconds more from smoke bombs i guess), and no other boss has a chance of saving more than ~10 seconds, if that much.
Also, looks like the video i posted of boss 4 was exactly 8 frames short of perfect up until the final hp bar. Might save 1-2 more seconds on that, but unfortunately no chance of saving the 5 i estimated before. This makes me both angry that i can't improve it more, and glad that i was so close to perfect before, on what was basically my first attempt at it since i restarted the tas.
edit: saved 166 more frames, for a total of 3638 over my previous submission. Kind of sad that i beat a 2:45 fight by more than a minute x.x;
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Player
(128)
Joined: 12/3/2011
Posts: 1579
Spider-Waffle wrote:
I'll start the home page for Wiiemu2000, a Wii emulator that properly emulates the VC, fully compatible with VC2000, and VC2000, a VC emulator that properly emulates the N64 being emulated by VC just as accurately as dolphin.
If it properly emulates it, then sure, why not?
But it's not going to.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Player
(128)
Joined: 12/3/2011
Posts: 1579
I would guess that the emulator has been written in a portable language, and while it might use system-specific libraries, it would only be a question of porting those libraries for other platforms.
Easily portable or not, it almost certainly does, so it could not be run on standard pc hardware, as is.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Player
(128)
Joined: 12/3/2011
Posts: 1579
Looks like i can save even more time. Just managed to save 19 frames, even though the first half of the fight was significantly slower (~200 frames). I almost saved another 300 frames, but the boss can only die in boar form. If you fully drain its hp before then (which is nearly impossible to do), it just goes to boar form, and dies in one hit.
Anyway, the frames were saved with flash. It takes ~25 frames to use and does 40 damage, which is 2-3x more damage/frame than i can otherwise do. I think i might be able to get another 5 seconds off this fight.
Now i have to look into the possibility that other SAs are actually useful :(
Also, after beating the foot at the start, you can actually jump onto the top of its leg, above the screen, instead of on the foot. There's a frame rule at this point making it take exactly the same time (otherwise it would actually be faster than stopping on his foot), so there's no gain/loss, but it looks awesome, so i'll be doing it.
edit: turns out my last attempt finished the first phase 3 frames slower than the best possible time, so doesn't look like flash will be saving as much time as i thought :(
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Player
(128)
Joined: 12/3/2011
Posts: 1579
Bobo the King wrote:
I'm inclined to say stick with Mupen and ignore any other differences unless Dolphin's emulation is improved to the point where we can reliably use it to TAS as we please. Regardless, this is a trickier issue than I thought at first glance.
Dolphin already works beautifully. Serious emulation issues are extremely rare, with the vast majority games running perfectly. Recording works even better in dolphin than in mupen: it has thus far shown to sync 100% of the time, over the last 3 months since save states were reworked.
The only significant problem with tasing on dolphin, is that it runs slow. A typical user can expect most games, including zelda, to run at around one third to 75% speed, using settings that work for tasing. A top of the line pc could run most (but not all) games at full speed.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Player
(128)
Joined: 12/3/2011
Posts: 1579
DarkKobold wrote:
rog wrote:
What this boils down to, is that the only way to do this run without absusing emulation glitches is to do the run in dolphin,
Actually, it is still abusing an emulation glitch. Just because Nintendo wrote the VC, doesn't magically make everything about their emulation perfect.
And, yes it runs on a console. However, I can install SNES9x on an Xbox. That doesn't magically make every SNES9x glitch legitimate.
The difference here is that the emulator is part of the official release. If you remove the emulator, you are no longer playing the wii version of zelda oot, you are playing the n64 version.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Player
(128)
Joined: 12/3/2011
Posts: 1579
- Allow this to be submitted, but allow a run in English to obsolete it if it's faster without the gain. I only mention this because a couple people were throwing it around; personally I think it'd be too big a pain to see exactly how much gets saved - especially if it comes to apply to other games.
This is basically already in the rules:
If you are obsoleting a movie that was recorded with the wrong settings, that movie's completion time will be increased 20% when comparing them to adjust for the fact that PAL games run at 50 Hz and NTSC at 60 Hz.
A movie made with an older version of emulator is not allowed to "beat" a movie made with a newer version of emulator, except when the timing differences are irrelevant or the "beaten" movie is not accepted in the first place.
This is about emulator timing differences, but that's basically the same concept.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Player
(128)
Joined: 12/3/2011
Posts: 1579
Mupen is not a "VC emulator", stop saying that. Usually it's a good idea to stop trying to trick people with clever wordsmithing when people have already called your bullshit.
A VC emulator is specifically not what you want. A VC emulator would be running an n64 emulator inside a wii emulator. Remember? Isn't that what you wanted to avoid doing?
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Player
(128)
Joined: 12/3/2011
Posts: 1579
For those not following the oot thread, the reason for this thread, has to do with version differences between the n64 and wii version of zelda oot.
On the n64, using deku stick as an adult will crash the game. This does not happen on the gamecube, or wii version. With a new glitch, to warp to the credits, the new route requires using the deku stick as an adult. This is impossible on the n64, but works fine on the wii.
Although using deku stick as an adult does not work on the n64, it does work in mupen (for exactly the same reason it works on the gamecube and wii). Obviously this is an emulation glitch, and should not be allowed, as per common sense, and the rules. Instead, what spider wants to do is use the rom from the wii version (which is identical to the n64 one anyway), and pretend it's the same game, even though it'd be tased in mupen.
What this boils down to, is that the only way to do this run without absusing emulation glitches is to do the run in dolphin, running an n64 emulator inside a wii emulator. Obviously the game works on a native n64 emulator, but the glitch require for the current route does not, so this seems like a valid reason to use an emulator in an emulator, at least to me, especially since the emulator in question is part of a commercially released game. The problem with doing it in dolphin, is that dolphin is really slow, and currently does not allow reset recording. I would argue that the first problem is just too bad, because that's not a valid reason to cheat the game. The second is a little more tricky, but only one reset is used, which could potentially be replaced with a death, though this would obviously be slower. Additionally, dolphin has a pretty active dev team, so it is possible reset recording could be added, which would leave the only reason to do the run in mupen because "it's too hard to do in dolphin".
The argument is basically that mupen behaves similar (but not the same) as a different version of the game, so they want to use it instead of dolphin, even though the only reason it works is because of an inaccurate emulation. They think this is justified for the sole reason of mupen being more convenient to tas in than dolphin.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Player
(128)
Joined: 12/3/2011
Posts: 1579
Mupen doesn't even try to attempt to do proper loading times.
Neither does dolphin, and frankly, i don't know see why it should. The load times aren't required by the hardware, and can often even be bypassed/changed by things like adjusting the resistance to the laser in an optical drive, or even loading games directly from a hdd (or ssd for extra fast loading) in some cases.
The ethics of doing such things are of course a huge grey area, but it is still possible to get the same load times on the original consoles (at least for some consoles) as would be seen in an emulator.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Player
(128)
Joined: 12/3/2011
Posts: 1579
Uh...A "VC emulator" is by definition an emulator running in an emulator. VC IS an emulator. VC is NOT a console. You cannot run VC directly because not only does it not have the tools required to tas a game, it can't even be run a pc. It is written for PPC, not x86 or x86-64.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Player
(128)
Joined: 12/3/2011
Posts: 1579
maxx wrote:
rog wrote:
Granted, at this time, it's not usable for oot, because there is no reset recording, but dolphin has a bunch of active developers, so that may not be too hard to get added.
I am of the opinion (and other OoT people may disagree with me) that this isn't a big deal. No OoT TAS submitted here before Swordless' very recent MST TAS used resets (because Mupen didn't support them, or maybe they didn't sync). OoT resets can often be simulated by dying. It's a bit slower, but you get the same effect. Console runners only do 2 hard resets in OoT any% (with stick B), and one would probably be slower in a TAS anyway. The only big one is Adult in ToT, and you can die there to get a savewarp type of effect.
It would be slower without resets than with resets, but I think stick B with no resets would be faster than no stick B with resets. I could be wrong, but I don't think it's out of the question.
Unless dying in the temple of time ends up being slower than just doing the previous rba route, and killing ganon.
I don't know off hand if that would be the case though.
Though it also makes it much harder for people to be motivated to do the run, knowing that reset recording could be added the next day, obsoleting half of their run.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Player
(128)
Joined: 12/3/2011
Posts: 1579
Spider-Waffle wrote:
rog wrote:
Also, if the emulator did not accurately emulate the n64, you still could not abuse any emulation glitches.
Why would that matter, it's not a N64 emulator, it's a VC emulator
Ok, hold up. Stop. VC is not a console. VC stands for virtual console, which is the name of nintendo's n64 emulator. If you meant something else by VC, you need to clarify. If not, then yes it is an n64 emulator.
A VC emulator would be an emulator that runs nintendo's emulator inside another emulator. For example, dolphin is a "VC" emulator.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Player
(128)
Joined: 12/3/2011
Posts: 1579
Well of course you can.
Though, their VC emulator is written for the PPC architecture, specifically being intended to run on a wii. That means you'd have to tas it on a either a wii, or a wii emulator. Or at least some other PPC emulator. Certainly it would never run on a standard desktop pc.
Also, if the emulator did not accurately emulate the n64, you still could not abuse any emulation glitches.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Player
(128)
Joined: 12/3/2011
Posts: 1579
Spider-Waffle wrote:
I can understand and respect that. But do you get that on VC and maybe GC actual hardware people use this in their RTSes?
Of course. And i have no problem with you doing the same in a wii/gc emulator.
We're trying to make a N64 TAS, we're trying to make TAS of something people are already making RTS for, mupen can act as an emulator for such hardware, we want to make a run like the RTS and publish it under the same console category as the RTS. Currently Mupen is the best option to do this. No one here wants to make a N64 run that does stuff the N64 can't do. I think everyone here wants to see a GC/VC run like the RTS but TASed. We are trying to make that happen. Blinding upload values without realizing the actual consequences or what is actualy going to be done is not helping that happen.
Cheating just because you don't feel like dealing with dolphin seems a bit silly to me. I do understand dolphin is a pain, because it runs so slow, but having spent quite a bit of time tasing with it, i promise, it's not unreasonable. It even gets bonus points for syncing perfectly, seemingly 100% of the time (to my knowledge there has never once been a desync with dolphin since nitsuja's fixes 3 months ago). Granted, at this time, it's not usable for oot, because there is no reset recording, but dolphin has a bunch of active developers, so that may not be too hard to get added.
You, or anyone else is welcome to do the run in mupen. If it's done, i will watch, and enjoy the run. But if it is submitted here, i will vote no, for the reasons i already explained.
While nearly every run published here fails this in technical sense, they come pretty close. I feel a run done on Mupen, published as VC or GC, does this as close as we can with our current emulators. It will give us series of key-presses which may be performed on the original hardware, that hardware being the VC or GC.
Well, if you want to tas it in mupen, then convert the .m64 to .dtm and playback in dolphin, then go for it. I don't know that you'll be able to get it to sync though.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Player
(128)
Joined: 12/3/2011
Posts: 1579
Spider-Waffle wrote:
Read the Edited post, suppose it they added that?
Answered above in my edit.
Why are you belaboring the quesion? What values are you trying to upload by providing such opposition to stick on B? How are you serving the community?
For the same reason i would argue against hacking a rom to instantly reach the credits. For the same reason i would argue against abusing any other emulation glitch that does not work on the original console. You want to do something that is 100% impossible on an n64, and i have a problem with that.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Player
(128)
Joined: 12/3/2011
Posts: 1579
Spider-Waffle wrote:
If Nintendo gave us the code for their VC emulator and said here, this should you guys make some TASes, we wouldn't allow runs that used it here?
Nintendo's n64 emulator doesn't have rerecording support, or even save states, so i'm not sure how that would even work.
And even if it did, i'm still tempted to say no, because it's still working as a result of poor emulation. An n64 emulator not crashing when B stick is used is obviously not doing the same thing the original hardware would do. Official emulator or not, it does not work how it would on an n64. However, when a wii/gc emulator does not crash, it is doing exactly what it should, because that's what happens on the original hardware.
So you answer No, are you the person who decides this or are you just speaking from the impression you have a dis-proportionally entitled opinion?
Neither, i'm simply arguing my opinion, just like everyone else here.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Player
(128)
Joined: 12/3/2011
Posts: 1579
Spider-Waffle wrote:
If it works on GC and VC then why can't we put Mupen in a different skin as a GC or VC emulator if it is accurately functioning as one? Hell it might even be more accurate than dolphin.
Mupen is not a GC/wii emulator, and it makes no attempt to be.
Hell it might even be more accurate than dolphin.
No. Mupen emulates the GC version of oot completely wrong. It completely ignores half of the code that a real GC would be running.
Can't VC runs (not Wii) be accepted on this site? Why shouldn't they be?
When "VC" is defined as a rom dump that intentionally removes all parts of the rom that make it more difficult to tas? And then it abuses poor emulation in the name of being more accurate? No.
This version is from the GC, can only be found on the GC, and stick B works on the GC. It's that simple.
No it doesn't. B stick only works on the GC because of the code that you are conveniently stripping away.
