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feos wrote:
Weapons can't be a part of it since you can't collect them all in one playthrough.
Well you probably could collect all weapons in one playthrough, but this would require "new game+" savefile that has Inner Prey unlocked.
My earlier post mistakenly said the massacre is mutually-exclusive with the banana gun, but it's actually mutually-exclusive with the scrambler (which is not a weapon). So with Inner Prey unlocked you could warp to Sector Z to get the Null Driver, find all base weapons in the regular levels, get your stats to Tasen 10 / Komato 10 / Crack 10 to hack seven compound weapons (the eighth can be hacked but is also on the ground in Sector X), enter the secret area with the Banana Gun, get the Massacre at the final boss, and proceed to get the secret Sector Y ending.
And, well, Sector Z at least makes a very different viewer experience. I'm not saying that's how the branch needs to be, but it at least strikes me as possible.
This run would be incompatible with all ribbons / posters, since Inner Prey requires you to already have those. It would still be compatible with all supercharges, since supercharges aren't recorded anywhere.
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Well, I was going to write a long post detailing each type of item, but then it struck me that it's the author's job to explain why this is a valid branch. As far as I can tell, he uses this branch only because Speedrun.com has it; and that site doesn't explain why, either.
Matslo123 wrote:
The reason I only chose these is because they are tracked by the game (in the ingame and main menu). Getting the other guns/items would require multiple runs through the game and I think that that would be vary boring as they would not differ much at all.
This is not entirely correct. Posters are tracked in-game and in the main menu. Ribbons are not shown in-game or in the menu, but they are stored in the save file, as one particular secret requires ten ribbons. Supercharges are not tracked anywhere nor are they saved; a supercharge is simply equivalent to a level-up.
And while it is true that a single run cannot collect ALL weapons (the banana gunscrambler requires killing a bonus boss, the massacre requires zero kills), it strikes me as reasonable to collect as many weapons as possible. Neither the banana gun nor the trapmine requires multiple runs.
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feos wrote:
Then won't it be faster to kill more and still get that ending?
The good ending requires less than 51 kills, not zero kills. Saving Dan merely requires a brief detour in sector 8 to pick up the trapmine item; this would otherwise look identical to the current any%.
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moozooh wrote:
The game tracks several levels of player aggression which depend on their kill counts and some other plot-relevant choices. Aggression affects both gameplay (enemy AI, fights, itemization, and paths through levels change somewhat) and story progression (different sound effects, dialogue options, and endings).
You're mixing up 1.6 and 1.7.
1.6 only has pacifist (up to 5 kills per level) and destroyer (more than 5 kills per level), with two endings, and zero kills only affects the extra weapon at the end boss. 1.7 has pacifist, destroyer, Full pacifist (spare a particular boss) and Berserk (more than 30 kills per level), with two additional endings for these. Note that "full pacifist" does not require zero kills, only that you spare that boss.
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According to Speedrun.com rules, "all items" means all posters, ribbons, and supercharges.
However, according to the game's author, "all items" means all basic weapons, jump and armor upgrades, and the trapmine (in addition to all posters, ribbons, and supercharges).
To avoid arbitrary categories, is there a compelling reason why this run skips e.g. the Banana Gun and the Trapmine, other than "it would take a bit longer" or "that's how Speedrun.com does it"?
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feos wrote:
So I ask the audience, people please compare this to [3937] Windows Iji by Matslo123 in 27:41.87 and tell how many substantial differences you see that make this movie unique and unexpected after the any% run.
There's an issue of definition: the game Iji calls you "pacifist" if you kill up to five enemies per level (not counting robots); whereas Speedrun.com (and this run) use the label "pacifist" if you get zero kills. The former makes a gameplay difference, the latter not so much.
If you keep your kill count below 5*level, you get benefits like enemies turning non-hostile; with a higher kill count, extra enemies appear. You get vastly different dialogue, and different ending screens, depending on this 5*level threshold. But in terms of speedrunning, dodging is usually much faster than killing; so all speedruns I've seen are well below this threshold. One could make a case for a TAS that kills 51+ enemies; this would look visually distinct because of all the violence, it may make an interesting pathing challenge, and it gets the bad ending.
The game does not, however, give different gameplay or dialogue or ending if you have zero kills; except that you get a special weapon for the final boss only (and since that boss fight is mostly about dodging, it doesn't even look that different). This means that this movie is not substantially different from the published any% run. Just because Speedrun.com calls it a different branch doesn't mean that we have to. $.02
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Alyosha wrote:
It's not just this game though, the star tier in general seems to have lost it's luster. It seems like something we do just out of inertia / habit. I don't know, maybe it's just me.
I've checked, and overall it looks fine to me. But perhaps certain games or series are overrepresented (e.g. there are several Mario games with two starred runs per game).
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Warp wrote:
Many times it has been discussed what exactly it means for the two categories for rating TASes, entertainment and technical quality, and what their difference is. This TAS showcases absolutely marvelously what technical quality means.
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Patashu wrote:
I'd say 'this is borderline possible in RTA and difficult even for TAS to route and execute' is a great category to make a TAS of, assuming it is that hard.
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Well I'd love to see a run of this game!
It's heavy on the luck manipulation though, as this is an early example of a procedurally generated maze. So while the movement in this run looks solid, I have no idea if the maze is optimal.
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I suggest Eindeloos. It's a very technically advanced game (for the C64, that is) and offers a huge maze. At the time of release, it was rumored to be impossible; the name literally means "Endless", suggesting there is no end to the game. There actually is, but it took players several years to reach it. It would probably make a good dynamic TAS.
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Wow. I'm generally a fan of Radarsoft, but this game is pretty bad by their standards, and that horrible rendition of Scott Joplin isn't helping.
Still, it's a quality run, and seeing it become progressively faster is funny. Yes vote.
Somebody should run Eindeloos...
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Here's a TAS in 26:19, and a ten-year-old speedrun in 27:18. This run doesn't appear to beat existing records.
Aside from that, I wonder how optimized this really is. Enemies can be luck-manipulated to slam you forward rapidly (e.g. at 2:52) or hit you with a missile for the same effect. This run barely uses that, and on several occasions boosts max HP (e.g. 2:54, 16:22) without using this extra health. It uses the same routing as the two-year-old speedrun.com record. As the author notes, it is "fairly standard" and doesn't appear to consider TAS-only strategies.
Finally, the stated reason for picking the easiest difficulty is incorrect, in that the skips in sector 5 and sector X are possible on Extreme difficulty. This was also pointed out in the last thread, where several people give their preference for higher difficulty. The easy mode used here has fewer enemies; slower enemies; easier boss patterns; and double HP pickups, and makes gameplay not very challenging. This strikes me as a case where the movie guidelines suggest highest difficulty.
This game is from the author of [2529] Windows Hyper Princess Pitch "Reallyjoel's Mom difficulty, best ending" by Tseralith in 15:40.48, and is where Reallyjoel's Dad comes from. He makes very interesting high difficulty levels; so I'd like to see those in a TAS. This gets a 'no' for entertainment from me.
Patashu wrote:
Unless playing on a higher difficulty is particularly boring, the highest difficulty should be used.
£e Nécroyeur wrote:
Radiant wrote:
It strikes me that faster enemies, less health powerups, and very difficult bosses could make for a more exciting run.
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Matslo123 wrote:
Really all it does is makes shortcuts unavailable therefore making the run unneceserily longer.
According to the manual, 'extreme' difficulty does all of the following:
You can gain 3 levels per Sector
Cracking time is decreased by 4 seconds
Certain enemies attack at a very fast rate
Certain enemies almost always dodge/reflect projectiles
When failing to crack a security box: it has a 25% chance of exploding
When failing to crack a door: there's a 75% chance its Security will increase by 1
Red nanofields recover 1 HP
Bosses are very difficult
Nano Overloads do not exist
It strikes me that faster enemies, less health powerups, and very difficult bosses could make for a more exciting run. The manual doesn't mention anything about making shortcuts unavailable. For instance, Extreme still allows you enough levels to get a Nuke required for the shortcut for the level 5 boss...
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Matslo123 wrote:
(2, 3, 4) I think it only makes sence to do a TAS how the game is speedrun normally.
I was hoping you'd have more of a reason behind this choice beyond "that's how some guys at speedrun.com did it".
For instance, this guy "normally" speedruns the game at the highest difficulty level, and while saving Dan, and using a different route; whereas that player and this one "normally" speedrun at the secret-higher-than-highest difficulty level (and activating the powered-up version of the final boss). So I'm curious why you picked your particular criteria instead of, say, these ones.
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Matslo123 wrote:
I think I will redo the TAS in order to have the audio as well.
Well I'd say the music is worth it.
But if you plan on redoing things, maybe you should ask the community for input on (1) using version 1.6 or 1.7; (2) getting the good ending where you save Dan, or the bad one like you do now; (3) whether to use easiest or hardest difficulty; and (4) pacifist or no, as that's a fairly big deal in this game (and gives you the Massacre weapon for the endboss).
Now your run will probably acceptable regardless of these choices, but it never hurts getting some wider opinion on what people prefer seeing in a run. Good luck! :D
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SmashManiac wrote:
Also, why was version 1.6 chosen?
It's the most widely-played version. Note from the changelog that the game was released september 2008 and had periodic patches until 1.6 was released on march 2010. Then nothing happens for seven years, and then suddenly v1.7 appears.
1.7 is a bit unusual. It changes pacifist gameplay from dodging enemies to shooting them with non-lethal weapons (i.e. the new "passive" weapons, but this doesn't strike me as useful for a TAS), and adds a new ending for pacifist players where after you defeat the final boss, an earlier boss walks in and one-shot kills you. Yes, Iji walks faster, but other than that I don't see any advantages to 1.7, and 1.6 remains the most common version.
