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Thanks for the video! I understand what you mean now, your wording just confused me a bit.
Can you hover with Yoshi or speedswap to the right to reach anywhere useful? If not, the only thing I can think of would be to find a way to trick the game into placing you onto the platform by touching the spikes.
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Malleoz wrote:
For the Chapter 6 skip: In Chapter 8 after Riddle Tower, there is a room where you need to Spring Jump and enter a loading zone to the right. There are also spikes in that room. You can do a Ms. Mowzz glitch and double jump out of it to get on the seam. From here you can get underneath the spikes and the second set of spikes. Basically we need a way to get higher so we can Mowzz glitch while getting hit by the spikes. You can actually jump while activating her, but it's not high enough for the spikes' hitbox to affect Mario.
Is there a video of this anywhere? I don't really get what you mean by double jump out of a Ms Mowz glitch.
I remember messing around in that room a while back: I tried to get on top of the pole you go across by using Ms Mowz, but in the end it seemed impossible. I don't think there is actually any surface to stand on.
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What position was the Z-Yux in? It could have influenced your spawn maybe, but this is really strange. Also you were still high up, right?
Edit: If you were First Struck then that may lead to other effects. I forgot to test what happens when you get hit in different states, I might test it later today.
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I've just spent a while testing entering battles in different states. I did most of my testing in the Great Tree as the Piders are in convenient places to test spring jumps. I've laid out each state I tested and the result below.
1) Enter battle in air using Mario, no First Strike: on the ground after the battle, double jump not possible.
2) Enter battle in air using Mario, First Strike: Mario will be exactly where he was when the battle was triggered, double jump is possible.
3) Enter battle in air using Mario in tube mode, no First Strike: same as 1) except you are still in tube mode. Needs further testing to see if speed glitches are possible in tube mode.
4) Enter battle in air using Mario in tube mode, First Strike: same as 2), except you double jump still in tube mode!
5) Enter battle in air using a Spring Jump, while still moving upwards: same as 2).
6) Enter battle in air using a Spring Jump, while fluttering down: same as 2) (not fluttering any more).
7) Enter battle in air using Koops: same as 2).
8) Enter battle in air using Bobbery: same as 2).
9) Enter battle in air, using Yoshi (hovering or falling): same as 2) (you are off Yoshi).
10) Defeat enemy using the First Attack badge: instant double jump. It should be possible to chain multiple jumps and bounce between enemies, or set up Koops to hit multiple enemies in quick succession and get really high.
11) Defeat enemy using the Bump Attack badge: if it is a First Strike, then the same effects as 10). Otherwise no abnormal effects.
12) Enter battle using Bobbery, while transforming into plane mode: no effect if the battle starts during the first half of the transformation. If it starts during the second half of the animation however, there is an odd graphical glitch where you flip around to face the other way for about a second.
So, it turns out it is in fact possible to double jump out of a spring jump, at the point where you collided with the enemy. Thanks jlun2! This may have a use with enemies that throw projectiles. Maybe the X-Nauts in X-Naut Fortress' potions could hit you after a spring jump, then you could double jump and get Out of Bounds? There is still more to be done!
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In Riverside Station you can use the double jump glitch to skip the tube mode maze. All you need to do is go down to the bottom section and start a battle with a Pokey in the air, using Koops or Bobbery, and then move left after the second jump to reach the higher platform. This might save a second or so, but is possibly slower because the maze is quite short. A TAS of that room would be appreciated to see if it saves time :)
Also, I found out the double jump glitch is possible using the First Attack or Bump Attack badges, meaning you don't have to enter a battle. The way these badges work is that you have to be a high enough level so you get no Star Points from the enemy you attack, so there would be no use in any%. However, this adds a few timesavers for a 100% TAS of this game if one is ever made.
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jlun2 wrote:
In that case, how about spring jump near an enemy, and time it so that you reach higher than a normal jump when it strikes?
The only enemies in the room where Riddle Tower Skip could be possible are two Embers, and since they don't move upwards I don't think it would work. I've also heard from knowledgeable people that the only reason Riddle Tower Skip is possible in Levitate% is because the code lets you clip through ceilings :/
Your idea could maybe work somewhere else in the game with airborne enemies though. It also might be the case that the glitch doesn't even work unless you start the battle with Koops or Bobbery. I'm gonna try testing some stuff to do with this glitch, I have a few ideas of places where it could save time and lots of unanswered questions.
Also, here's the RTA pastebin for the new trick for anyone interested: http://pastebin.com/h8a7sjEb
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jlun2 wrote:
Really_Tall wrote:
Malleo, do you think Riddle Tower Skip would be possible using this? In the room with a save block and Embers, if you got up onto the save block by doing this glitch with Koops, and then used Bobbery from up there to do the glitch again and get even higher... I'm not sure how much height you need but it's worth looking into at least.
To add onto this, in the case its not enough, is it possible to use this glitch with a spring jump?
Unfortunately that doesn't work because when you spring jump your partner stops whatever they're doing and... uhhh... jumps into your pocket I guess? Basically they'll cancel whatever action they're doing when you start crumpling up, which sucks.
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Malleo, do you think Riddle Tower Skip would be possible using this? In the room with a save block and Embers, if you got up onto the save block by doing this glitch with Koops, and then used Bobbery from up there to do the glitch again and get even higher... I'm not sure how much height you need but it's worth looking into at least.
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Congrats on finishing this Malleo!
I was blown away when I first saw the Mega Rush manipulation from the Hammer Bros on Almo's stream: that was a very creative improvement. Also, UHE looked sick.
Good luck on Paper Mario 64/Super Paper Mario :D
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I did some RTA timing on the chapter 2 stuff, and the strat after the Shadow Sirens saved three seconds optimally, and should save roughly the same in a TAS. The clips near Flurrie's house are quite inconsistent, so it just depends how fast you can get them.
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It's probably only 5 seconds max... If there was a way to do the first clip without paper hitbox glitch it would be more like 15 though. Don't know if it's possible.
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1) You fall OoB by jumping left while in paper mode, but it's kinda precise. It works because the left tree has been placed at an awkward distance from the left side of the screen, and there isn't enough space for Mario at certain spots. This means the tree can push you off the edge if you jump at the right angle in the right positon.
2) The clips work differently: this one is significantly easier, and you don't need to be in paper mode to do it.
If you don't wanna go back for these that's understandable, it's your choice.
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I found two potential timesavers in Boggly Woods.
1) On the screen with Flurrie's house in the background, you can use the leftmost tree to fall OoB while in paper mode, to get paper hitbox glitch. With paper hitbox glitch it's possible to use the third tree from the left to clip through the wall to the pipe. This basically saves a small amount of movement, and could be done on both trips to Flurrie's house if it saves time.
2) After the Shadow Sirens fight, collect the necklace then go to the leftmost tree. You can once again fall OoB, this time by jumping at an ~up-left angle. (This should be faster than Goombella buffering, because you would have to switch to Goombella.) Falling OoB respawns you at the right side of the screen, and is almost certainly faster than just travelling normally.
Hope these save time and have fun optimising :D
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Care to elaborate on any ideas you have Malleo? I'd be very interested to hear them :)
Also, I have an idea of my own it would be nice if you could test: doing a speed swap jump to the very bottom right of the platform we're trying to reach, and having it eject you up a few pixels. Like how you jump on padlocks basically. Maybe it could work...
Good luck on the Jabbi fights as well.
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Aww. It was worth a shot, and thanks for testing both of those Malleo. Any idea why it's open? I thought it would of been like the Boat Curse chest, where it can be opened post-chapter and retriggers the chapter.
Also, does anything odd happen if you collect the Super Hammer after the Ultra Hammer? Probably not but if you want something to experiment with there you go :P
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The lock on the Sanctum will respawn if the game is set to a point pre-Chapter 6 (or in Ch 6 before that cutscene). The cutscene can be played at least twice, and probably infintely, with no glitchy side effects. This means multiple skips involving triggering Chapter 6 could be done together.
Unfortunately luigi1er I don't see how your skip will work unless something else new is found, as you need the Super Boots to open Chapter 6. Maybe Malleo can find something though, and it's a really neat idea!
Also Malleo nice work on the Prologue, it looks really optimised.
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I'm 100% certain the Sanctum cutscene sets the game to Chapter 6. It's really easy to check what chapter the game is set to beacuse it auto-fills your map with places you "should" have been to (places added to your map in Thousand-Year Door cutscenes). The game also adds the Crystal Star for the Chapter it thinks you're in. This works in reverse, so retriggering say, Chapter 2 after completing Chapter 4 will remove Glitzville and Creepy Steeple from your map entirely, but Twilight Trail will remain. Just something interesting I've noticed :)
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I have an idea for a possible sequence break. I haven't tested this, and it may not work, but I think it has a good chance. I can't test this myself because it requires Ultra Hammer Early, and therefore JP TTYD, which I don't have. It would go like this:
-Follow Malleo's route up to the start of Chapter 3.
-Sign up to be a fighter, and continue normally until Yoshi hatches.
-Go to Rogueport Sewers and open and enter the pipe to Chapter 6, using the Ultra Hammer to break the block. It would probably be faster to open the Chapter 5 pipe at the same time.
-Read the message on the Sanctum to set the game state to Chapter 6.
-Go to Twilight Town. As far as I am aware, having the game state set to post-Chapter 4 lets you go down the Twilight Town pipe whether you've been there before or not.
-Open the Tube Curse Chest to set the game back to Chapter 4, and continue through the game from there.
If this works, it would skip Grubba and the Gold Star, and the post-Chapter 3 cutscenes. It would also affect levelling because you don't fight Grubba. If it doesn't work though, I'd be interested to know why. If somebody could test this that would be great!
