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Really_Tall
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First of all, it's nice to see a full TAS of this game! I spent some time working on Lua scripting for it a few years ago on DeSmuME but I only actually TASed 1-1. Here's a TAS of 1-1 that aims for style rather than speed, and here's the result of my research on RNG. I also have a TAS of 1-1 that aims for speed, but I haven't published that yet. Do note that it's somewhat unfair to compare TASes of 1-1 to a full game run, because they can use perfect RNG by changing the system clock before startup, and it is infeasible to have perfect RNG in later stages of a full run. I noticed that the submission text doesn't mention RNG manipulation (for orange peg positions in the next level) at all, which is a red flag. Along with changing the system clock to get perfect RNG for 1-1, you can manipulate RNG for the next level quite quickly by waiting on the fever screen, because all of those particles rapidly advance RNG. Even if no scripting was used to find good shot angles and/or RNG seeds, I'd expect to see at least some testing of different RNG advancements at the end of each level, to attempt to cluster orange pegs together, and to avoid them appearing in the worst possible positions, for example. Additionally, the assertion that there are only ~588 possible shot angles is wrong. In my testing I found that there are 14296 angles, almost 30x more. Once again, even without exhaustive testing, using this greater level of control to change the shot angle very slightly would make many shots more efficient. The acceptance message doesn't discuss the optimisation of this movie, which is improvable, as illustrated by a great example from CtrlAltDestroy. This movie may still be good enough for a first TAS of this game, but the optimisation should definitely be addressed by a Judge before publication. P.S. Here are some of memory addresses I found (in DeSmuME, but hopefully they match in BizHawk), with particularly important ones in bold: xAddress = 0x021C7374 yAddress = 0x021C7378 xVelAddress = 0x021C7384 yVelAddress = 0x021C7388 realLaunchAddress = 0x02167EFC targetLaunchAddress = 0x021665F4 (the game uses this value at 1/16th precision, so values 194448 to 194463 are the same shot, for example) pegsHitAddress = 0x021666B8 pegsToCountAddress = 0x0216692C orangePegsHitAddress = 0x02166578 pegPointsAddress = 0x02166694 rngAddress = 0x020DE7D4
Really_Tall
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Looks good! I liked 1-7 and 1-9 the best. You may want to Ask a Judge about the acceptability of this release compared to the original release, especially if using button inputs instead of touchscreen inputs is slower, or if there are other notable differences.
SMWAgent09AF wrote:
Another goal of mine is to never repeat objects, so I'll have to decide where it is most important to do vehicle clips, spring clips and the like.
Is this goal equivalent to getting the "All New" Merit in every stage? I think the speed/entertainment tradeoff to use only unique objects makes sense for the game, and if it can be neatly defined based on that Merit then that's handy (in the case that someone wants to obsolete the movie while following the same goals, for example).
Really_Tall
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I use YouTube 99% of the time, archive/dailymotion only when there is no YouTube stream, and the actual movie file only when I want to study the inputs or attempt to make an improvement. On the occasion I want to download a video, my first choice is to... use youtube-dl. The filesize difference is irrelevant to me and I'd much rather save the video in high quality, which I know I'll get from the YouTube stream. The alternate encodes definitely feel like a relic of the site's beginnings. They aren't used by the overwhelming majority of the site's audience, particularly the large casual audience that only watches on TASVideosChannel. Considering how much trouble they apparently are, it makes perfect sense to me to remove them, or consolidate them into a more easily maintained option.
ThunderAxe31 wrote:
Most people don't even know that there has always been the possibility of watching embedded streams from archive.org, by clicking on the buttons under the movie screenshot. ... I think this should be solved with a simple improvement of the site layout, by grouping every watching option together, making all options evident, and with clearer wording.
Already vastly improved on the new site! Here's a random publication for you to check the new design: https://demo.tasvideos.org/1734M
Really_Tall
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Acumenium wrote:
So the next question is, do past runs impact what future runs may be submitted? If so, objectively, this run needs to be accepted, as the polls not only do not matter but a run with a literally arbitrary, everchanging goal was accepted.
Acumenium wrote:
Objectively, an auto-scroller or any point in a game where you have to wait for something to occur is not entertaining.
Acumenium wrote:
Yes, a few of the tricks were entertaining and not seen elsewhere... then nothing happens, for minutes at a time. Objectively, that isn't interesting.
Link to video I think you mean in your opinion, rather than objectively. That's why you're not faced with complete agreement: entertainment is a matter of opinion, not facts. For example, I think that autoscrollers can be the most entertaining part of a run, as you have the freedom to show off strategies and glitches that aren't part of the fastest movement. This movie is a good example: [4452] SNES Tiny Toon Adventures: Buster Busts Loose! by EZGames69 in 18:48.52
Acumenium wrote:
a run with a literally arbitrary, everchanging goal was accepted.
Do you also have a problem with the 38 published "maximum score" runs? The Starred Ikaruga movie achieves a score of 50,230,200, and this Touhou movie achieves a score of 2,429,908,660: I'm sure these scores may one day be beaten, but these movie completed their goals all the same! See also the 5 published "Low%" runs. In particular, Super Metroid had a 14% movie obsoleted by a 13% movie: you can objectively measure an improvement here, despite a movie goal that aims to minimise something other than time. What I'm trying to make clear is that these goals are not "literally arbitrary, everchanging". They're aiming to minimise or maximise something, just like fastest completion movies aim to minimise time. Do all fastest completion movies complete a game in a known minimum number of frames? Of course not! The goal is to aim for the minimum or maximum of something, and if that's one day improved, that's... well, the goal of the site to showcase :) Hopefully that explains how unusual goals can still be measured objectively. A 62 A press movie would be a clear improvement to that other publication. You're allowed to find that movie boring, but that wasn't the consensus, and it's goal choice certainly doesn't mean that this run needs to be accepted. For complaints about that movie, this thread isn't the place.
Really_Tall
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The game looks solid enough for casual play, but this TAS is quite repetitive. The optimisation looks perfectly fine. Getting so many kills is nice, and going above the screen without wasting time was cool. But the damage taken looks sloppy, even if there's no way to avoid it. The levels look near-identical, and even the playaround in the boss fights is repetitive, unfortunately. Although the mechanics are limited, is there anything else you can do? Throw some extra shots out once the boss is gone, or move to the next world a frame before you fall into the spikes, maybe? I think this movie was barely entertaining enough for me to vote Yes, but it probably belongs in the Vault.
Really_Tall
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I like the strategy to reach the high up pipe! Unfortunately, I feel that however you define it, this movie doesn't efficiently meet its stated goal that "Every jump has to be the smallest posible". Analysis I see three distinct ways to formalise this goal: Goal #1: minimise the total number of A presses. Goal #2: minimise the total number of frames that A is held. Goal #3: minimise the number of frames in the longest A press. Goal #1: already been done, and this movie doesn't bear resemblence. Goal #2: this movie comes somewhat close, but all the unnecessary extra jumps present very obvious improvements. Goal #3: this movie accompishes this goal, but doesn't do it efficently. The longest press of 9 frames is only used once: an optimal movie pursuing this goal alone would do jumps ranging from 2 to 9 frames all the time. It would probably end up similar to this movie. Here's my attempt to formalise the actual choices in this movie: Primary goal: Minimise the number of frames in the longest A press. Secondary goal: Minimise the number of uses of the longest A press. (Repeat the above goals for every length of A press below the longest found, thus valuing ten 8 frame jumps as better than one 9 frame jump, and so on.) Tertiary goal: Minimise the number of A presses, unless they're 1 frame. This movie is, unfortunately, an arbitrary and confusing combination of goals. Finding a well-defined goal Your movie already meets what I named goal #3, minimising the number of frames in the longest A press. As I said before, this goal alone would end up too similar to the published warps run to be interesting. So, my suggestion is to first take that as a primary goal. Then take goal #2, minimising the total number of frames that A is held, as a secondary goal. It's not perfect, but I think "minimum A press length, minimum A press frames" is the least convoluted set of conditions that has a similar spirit to the run you have already. Other suggestions Userfiles is the best place to upload TASes of unusual and experimental categories like this one! They won't be judged there, and you can put up whatever you like. Before (or after) making a TAS for a proper submission like this one you can use the Ask a Judge thread or talk with the community to get advice and feedback. Super Mario Bros. is a very contested game with a lot of time and research put into it, so finding new things is a massive challenge. If it's your favourite game and you really, desperately want to stick with it, go ahead and try and improve the already published branches. Any improvements to those will get accepted, while the chance of another new SMB branch getting accepted is very, very slim, even with the clearer goal I described in the previous section. However, I'd recommend trying out TASing other games with less history, where you're more likely to find an improvement, or to get an entirely new game onto the site!
Post subject: Spreadsheet for BtT/BtP TAS records
Really_Tall
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As I recently discovered, [3493] N64 Super Smash Bros. "Break the Targets & Board the Platforms" by Isotarge & Mittenz in 08:05.92 has been outdated for some time, but a new version hasn't been submitted yet because improvements continue to be found by KM. I figured giving a heads up here as well would be a good idea. The following spreadsheet contains a ton of useful information for the game, including all the current TAS and non-TAS records, and anyone interested in improving the current publication should make good use of it! https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/16tTT2RJ1Zyiw4njtUi-WUIAuTZZCv-_K0Ys728MqJhQ/
Post subject: Major improvements by KM
Really_Tall
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I tried to improve this run over the last couple of days and found some minor timesaves. What I didn't realise is that the publication was already quite outdated... Link to video An updated version hasn't been submitted yet because improvements (in both US and JP) continue to be found by KM, which is a perfectly valid reason. There's a very comprehensive spreadsheet that was linked earlier in this thread, but I unfortunately didn't notice that it included TAS times, because those tabs are hidden unless you scroll. The improvement for the JP version totals 4.68 seconds so far, and it's still barely faster than the US version. Current Break the Targets TAS records: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/16tTT2RJ1Zyiw4njtUi-WUIAuTZZCv-_K0Ys728MqJhQ/edit#gid=1884128903 Current Board the Platforms TAS records: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/16tTT2RJ1Zyiw4njtUi-WUIAuTZZCv-_K0Ys728MqJhQ/edit#gid=1469799354 Hopefully this post prevents anyone else from spending their time rediscovering known timesaves. I'll be looking forward to the updated run!
Really_Tall
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Confirming that I'm signing up with EZGames69 and fsvgm777!
Really_Tall
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Loved this! I'm always excited to see new playarounds, and I'm especially happy to see an addition of such high quality that beats its predecessor so definitively. Lots of awesome parts, and in particular, the music sync during VS Kirby Team is art. I feel that this is now the game's best movie, and it would be well-suited to take the Star from [3493] N64 Super Smash Bros. "Break the Targets & Board the Platforms" by Isotarge & Mittenz in 08:05.92 :) Screenshot suggestion: the VS Fox ending frame (before the results pop up, of course).
Really_Tall
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Congrats! I know that you'll do an amazing job :)
Really_Tall
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Acumenium wrote:
EDIT: Looking at the "Threaded Gruefood" section, it looks like some judges or runners don't like seizure warnings being pointed out. http://tasvideos.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=21972 Why is this a controversial subject?
There are no Judges in that thread, and the only person against the warnings is a banned user.
Really_Tall
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So... the 0 Star TAS in the previous post wasn't an April Fool's fake, it's 100% real! Submitting it here would have given that away :^) Movie file: User movie #70527350345483596 The new glitch I found, Quantum Tunnelling, blows the game wide open. Migu's made a video explaining it: Link to video The 6:17 TAS was rushed for April Fool's and we've got a lot to optimise before the proper submission. We're hoping to get it under 6 minutes! Look forward to that later this year, fingers crossed :)
Post subject: Cool video!!
Really_Tall
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We beat the game with 0 stars, check it out! Link to video
Really_Tall
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It was fun to see how you avoided or barely survived some perilous situations while underleveled: in particular, the solution for the second last boss was amusing. Yes vote!
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A masterclass in damage boosting and RNG manipulation. What a beautiful TAS!
Really_Tall
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Optimised but outdated TAS: User movie #68217386723731530 Link to video Since that TAS, I figured out the "warp glitch" used at the start of the previous route (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X8BvFsagciQ). It's an underflow of the lower byte of Robin's X position, so it only works at X positions that are a multiple of 256. With a correctly aligned tile, the clip into it takes the lower X position byte from 249 to 255. Landing moves you forward a pixel which makes it 0, and then jumping inside a tile moves you back a pixel, causing the underflow. You need to have enough velocity to rise through the bottom half of the tile, as otherwise you'll fall back through without landing. That requirement means the minimum velocity for areas with three tiles between the ground and the ledge is 40, though you might be able to do the clip in areas with only a two tile gap as well, by jumping out of a crouch. The ledge must also be only one tile high vertically because otherwise the tile above will block you instead. So the warp glitch requirements are to: - use a tile aligned with a multiple of 256 (16x16 tiles, so 1/16 work) - use a tile with no tile above it - jump and clip into it from the left side - have the velocity to rise halfway through it (will usually be 40 when jumping) Note that the clip works going either left or right, but the "warp" will of course only work when you clip going right. The clip itself does not have many requirements. It'll be useless if there's a tile above the tile used, though, so that one is still effectively in place. The main thing to bear in mind for the clip is it will not work at a full speed of 47. This is because an essential part of the setup is travelling just 1 pixel on a specific frame, and at max speed you have a constant 2px/f. For this description of the setup, the X pos you get from jumping and hitting the wall will be X, and the Y pos you get jumping and hitting the ceiling will be Y (247 and 189 for the clip in the first room). Your position needs to go through these values: (X-2, Y), (X, Y-4), (X+2, Y-8), (X+3, Y-11) (but the final position becomes (X+8, Y-11) with the clip). So this is (245, 189), (247, 185), (249, 181), (255, 178) in the first room. This is why subpixels matter: you have to travel 2px/f on the first two frames, then only 1px on the third frame. If you don't then your X position simply increases by 2 again (up to 251 in the first room) and there isn't a clip. Also note that a lower Y speed/position can still give you the clip, but you won't avoid the ceiling. While I didn't find another place to use the warp in either of the current routes, I did find a place for the clip itself. It can be used to skip the final moving platform in the run, which means we don't need the high key in the trip to the left, only the key on the table which opens the gate to the final room. This discovery should take my TAS down by about 5 seconds! The coordinates for this clip (X=711, Y=109) are (709, 109), (711, 105), (713, 101), (719, 98), and they match the formula perfectly: that's how I got it to work here, after all. Link to video
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Nice
Really_Tall
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How speed works Firstly, here's a load of useful RAM addresses. There are bunch Vhyrro gave me, and then I tested while referencing the "VARS.PDS" file in the source code to find everything useful. User movie #68108177071818206 Robin's X speed (0x311) increases by 1 each frame you're running, to a max of 47. If you crouch it instead decreases by 1 each frame, for the crouch duration of 21 frames. Stopping will set it to 0, and turning will set it 0 turning left, or 2 turning right. The subpixel value (0x307) starts at 0, and each frame it either decreases (while moving left) or increases (while moving right) by the value of your X speed on the next frame multiplied by 5. So if you run left from the start, it will go 0, 251 (-5), 241 (-10), 226 (-15), 206 (-20), etc, changing by 5 more each time. This is up to a max change of 230 on the frame you reach 46 speed, and then the subpixel value stays constant once you have 47 speed (the max). But how are these values used? Well: - to begin, you move one pixel each frame - if the subpixel value wraps around, you move an extra pixel - jumping always moves you an extra pixel on the exact frame you jump, and doubles the amount the subpixel value changes for one frame only. This means it can wrap around twice on one frame, for a total of four pixels that frame - for the rest of the jump, the amount the subpixel value changes by is constant, since your X speed is constant (unless you hit a wall) So after you run for 46 frames, you'll run at a constant 2 pixels a frame. If you jump while at max speed then you'll always move two pixels each frame in the air. On the frame you jump, you'll move at least two pixels, up to a max of four. Note that there is one frame that you don't move when landing from a jump, so four pixels at the start and zero at the end cancel out: it isn't faster to do extra jumps along the ground for no reason. There's also a small discrepancy between running left and running right: when you run right the X speed of 1 is skipped, and it goes from 0 to 2. This means your X subpixel will start by going from 0 to 10. Here's an example: starting with a subpixel of 0, you run right for 12 frames and then jump on the 13th frame. The values while running are: 0, 10 (+10), 25 (+15), 45 (+20), 70 (+25), 100 (+30), 135 (+35), 175 (+40), 220 (+45), 14 (+50), 69 (+65), 129 (+70), 194 (+75). On the 10th frame (in bold) the speed wraps around, so Robin moves two pixels instead of one. Then the jump. The next increase is 70, which gets doubled to 140, and 194 + 140 = 334 which comes out to 78 with a wrap around. This means he moves two extra pixels this frame: one that always comes on the first jump frame, and one from the wrap around. So the total pixels moved comes out to: 1 for each of the 13 frames +1 for the one frame the subpixel value wrapped around while running +2 for the jump, from the constant and then the wrap around Totalling 16 pixels! And if you check in game, you'll see that's what happens. The X speed address also happens to be the address set to 255 for hyperjumps. Having a value above 47 messes with the calculation in ways I don't understand, and it means you no longer have that two pixel per frame guarantee from reaching max speed. There is an upside, however: some speed values will give you really nice jumps that are *almost* constantly two pixels per frame. One such value is 146, which (while moving left, since hyperjumps only work going left) decreases the subpixel value by 249 each frame, larger than normally possible. So you only lose a pixel roughly every 37 frames compared to a regular full speed jump! Instead of figuring out the formula, I just looked at each value to get a list of the best, with the most important in bold:
    X Speed: Subpixel Increase 047: +00 (no glitch) 052: +23 059: +23 068: +23 079: +07 082: +16 095: +23 102: +07 139: +23 146: +07 165: +24 168: +07 201: +05 205: +16 228: +07 244: +24 247: +07 255: +04
I figured representing it as an increase was clearer here: +4 means -252 and the value wrapped around. So jumping with a speed of 255 only loses a pixel every 256 / 4 = 64 frames! These values are the most important ones because the initial speed you have from the hyperjump is either 235 or 255 depending on if you get the crouch animation or not. From 235, 244 is the first good value, and then 247 and 255 are very close. In situations where you need to chain hyperjumps you can't reuse the same value constantly (it always increases by at least 1), making this combination a great choice. From 255, it takes one frame to halve your speed to 128, or two frames to get it to 64. That means it takes 19 frames to reach 146 speed, but only 17 frames to reach 79. If you don't need much more than regular height then that makes 79 the best value! But if you need considerable height then 146 will get you up anywhere. I hope this explanation was vaguely comprehensible. The subpixel value is never, ever cleared, even on death, which makes optimising and syncing pretty tricky, given how it works. One final neat thing is you can actually manipulate your subpixel while clipping through a ceiling, without losing frames. I managed to get it to 64 different values going from the first to the second room, 1/4 of the total, which should be a lot to work with! I'm not sure what value will be best. It might simply be the highest, 253, to start gaining pixels as soon as possible when moving right in the second room? It will certainly all need tested carefully.
Post subject: Video games huh
Really_Tall
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Vhyrro cut this game down to 2:06 yesterday: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8-IfdpT-Fu0 Then today, I figured out you can hyperjump instantly from a ladder with some precise inputs, instead of having to wait through the crouching animation. This cut probably another 20 seconds from the TAS, because you can use the trick in the room at 1:15 in Vhyrro's video to skip the moving platform and the whole detour to actually get onto it. I also found that you can chain hyperjumps: the way they work is pretty great. In Super Robin Hood, for each frame you run, the value for a jump increases by 1 to a max of 47. Letting go of left/right will halve it for each frame you do so, and crouching will decrease it by 1 each frame. However, when you set up a hyperjump and the value goes to 255 these properties still apply. I didn't check the source code, but I'm guessing the game checks for a value of exactly 47: as long as we stay above that value we can keep abnormal speed values for as long as we want! You have to keep running left, avoid hitting any walls while grounded, and make sure to not let your speed wrap around from 255 to 0, but these requirements aren't too bad, and we can do several hyperjumps in the same room when going from right to left. Vhyrro then found a great spot for a ceiling clip in the very first room that opened up a completely different route that he and I devised together. I made a quick test TAS and it came out to 1:24, more than halving the submission from only three days ago! Here it is: Link to video Since then Samsara added in a reset at the start and some small optimisations which took it to 1:18. Vhyrro is working on optimising it properly now, and if you want to get in on the fun, all the Super Robin Hood action is in the TASVideos Discord server!
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I really liked this movie! The glitches are all very interesting. However, the optimisation has a lot of problems. I didn't spend long looking over the movie and found several fairly obvious improvements, such as: -18f jumping up to the very first key from the right, instead of using the ladder -58f taking a better path to dodge the cannonball at 0:59 and grab the key much sooner -57f by simply turning back after getting the key at 1:28, and also dropping through the next platform -22f by dropping through the platform at 2:15 instead of walking to the end of it to fall off it These improvements total 155 frames, and I didn't use RAM watch or have any knowledge of the game to find them (so properly optimised they'd save even more). You can see them in the different branches of this file: User movie #68061606686780231 There is also at least one notable regression compared to [2755] NES Quattro Adventure: Super Robin Hood by Alyosha in 04:52.87: the moving platform at 0:21 can be jumped from sooner just by jumping onto it earlier. I didn't compare the full movies closely, but if there's one, I wonder if there are more. So, this is a neat movie, but I think it needs another pass from Vhyrro (or anyone else interested) to be publication-worthy. Excited to see the sub 3 minutes!
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I saved 3 frames at the end of stage 12 with a different strat: http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/67831165385882769 Unfortunately, it desyncs in the next stage. The game doesn't seem sync friendly at all (considering the constant lag) so I understand if the authors don't care to implement this. Figured it was worth documenting anyway. I spent a couple of hours looking through the rest of the movie and didn't notice any obvious improvements, so I don't think there are glaring problems with the optimisation or anything, it's just this one thing. Yes vote!
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BruceShankle wrote:
Heres the playaround that will be in the final movie
Great stuff! Especially spelling out "TAS", I didn't expect anything like that. Thanks for taking a second look at that section, and I'm happy to vote Yes now!
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Firstly, well done on this movie. It's a great technical accomplishment! As others have mentioned, though, the entertainment is lacking. My main issue with this movie is not the cutscenes, but the waiting period. There's a massive opportunity to entertain while you have nothing to do but wait for the clock tower door to open, and simply standing still isn't putting it to good use at all. You even have the chance to show off over several screens, since the timer you're waiting for isn't screen-specific. But if you opt to reach the clock tower screen with no delay, it would still be best to make full use of the time to show anything interesting you can think of, and you don't need to climb onto the clock tower platform right away. I'm sure there are plenty of ways to entertain, and what you did before you stand still is along the right lines! MM has a large RTA community and its members will definitely have creative ideas if you're struggling to think of any. I also have a technical question: is using filename code for ACE strictly necessary? If so, then explaining the engine differences that make this movie a different case from [4324] N64 The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time "game end glitch" by homerfunky in 06:37.33 (in which filename code is avoided) would be helpful. As it stands, the combination of wasted playaround potential and a ton of cutscenes don't do a great job at entertaining. I won't vote yet, since I'd love to see an updated movie with improved entertainment, and I hope the authors consider it: for now I'm between a Meh and a very weak Yes.
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Location: Scotland
There are two more broken encodes from Nahoc that were missed, and both are current publications: [717] NES Monopoly "4 CPUs" by FractalFusion in 01:07.67 - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vFNctqf6DmI [1478] GBA Castlevania: Aria of Sorrow by Kriole in 20:58.62 - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xq85VkMiXOI I checked through the rest of his encodes from 2010/2011 just in case and didn't find any more.