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Vykan12 wrote:
You haven't yet decided if you want to submit a run you completed 2 years ago?!?
Nobody's going to vote no over small optimization errors early in the run, that happens all the time and there's nothing runners can do about it unless the game is very hex friendly. If people were truly bothered by that, we'd never see a SM64 or N64 Zelda run published, EVER.
I don't really get your logic about not submitting. Even if it gets rejected (it won't), you still dramatically increase the audience for your work, which must count for something given that run must've taken at least months to complete. And if the run is rejected, it will be over factors out of your control, like the inherent hatred most hacks get here. Even then I wouldn't worry too much, as the site's been more lenient with hack publications - look at SM Zero Mission any% and 100%. The shinesparking exploits in your Redesign TAS alone make it more entertaining than any SM hack the site's ever seen.
Now even if you STILL don't want to submit, you should at least post the smv somewhere so that people aren't forced to watch an 11-part 30fps encode to appreciate your TAS.
I was referring to this Chrono Trigger case with my last sentence.
Regarding Redesign, it's not about the run getting accepted or not, it just doesn't feel alright to submit something that was partly done back in 2006/2007 when the SM-TAS knowledge was still relatively limited compared to now. Besides, the complete run is available as one 60 fps HQ video file anyway.
feos wrote:
Just how many rerecords it has? I guess over 100k. NO ONE would pretend it's sloppy. And while not being sloppy, a good tas has no problem with having possible improvements and still being perfectly acceptable.
Almost 400k actually. The count skyrocketed when I started to polish the techniques more after ScrewAttack collection, which due to the new physics and possibilities opened many additional challenges to solve the original SM didn't offer. And the extremely luck based and by far most tedious Tourian part alone took around 1/4 of it, IIRC.
Nach wrote:
I recall seeing a TAS of SMR some time back, which IIRC, was yours Saturn, and it looked publish worthy to me.
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turska wrote:
Also, Saturn, when are you going to submit the Super Metroid Redesign run? I'm looking forward to it.
There is no decision yet. That run has a couple of small optimization errors in the early Crateria parts resulted from rushing and not testing all variations at that time, so I probably shouldn't bother until an improved version, if it gets done. Having a probability that your hard work may not get accepted as it is without manipulations isn't a good motivation factor to make submissions either.
N. Harmonik wrote:
Wouldn't the run have been faster if the characters' names had been shortened to just one letter each?
It would, probably by a few seconds over the entire run. But I prefer originality and better recognition of the characters over tiny frame saver in this case.
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Nach wrote:
Saturn wrote:
Nach wrote:
Vykan12 wrote:
All techniques, Max equipment
Add all sidequests to the category name to make it slightly less silly.
It's not all sidequests.
Sidequests in this game are the events Gaspar mentions at the End of Time after getting the flying Epoch.
All the ones he mentioned that you completed give you an item in the process. It's not possible to get all those items without completing each of those side quests (to some extent). Therefore the max equipment goal implies all those side quests which you consider side quests.
You don't have to do the Ozzie's Fort sidequest any further after the main battle to get any additional items. You don't have to complete Death Peak and get Crono back to get items. Also "max equipment" only indicates items you can equip, not all the other stuff that appears in the item list, while not even being clear whether it has to be all of it or only the best.
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Nach wrote:
Vykan12 wrote:
All techniques, Max equipment
Add all sidequests to the category name to make it slightly less silly.
It's not all sidequests.
Sidequests in this game are the events Gaspar mentions at the End of Time after getting the flying Epoch.
feos wrote:
Rules mean nothing internally, only naturalness does.
The most natural element for a 100% run is getting all of the unique items in pretty much any game, which this run focuses on in the first place alongside many additional features to show most of the game, while only skipping a few meaningless events that wouldn't give you any gains other than adding long, repetitional delays 99% of people wouldn't be interested to see anyway.
feos wrote:
Did the goal in the author's mind naturally produce some kind of solution that also feels natural by the audience?
Why overcomplicate and overformalize everything afterwards once again? This isn't going anywhere good this way (history proved).
So you think using a label the judge "invents out of nowhere by himself to overcomplicate and overformalize everything afterwards", that ignores ~50% of this runs goals is more natural to the general audience?
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SmashManiac wrote:
1. Saturn wrote:
Tabs are limited, rare items
Considering that you can charm Power Tabs from Tubsters, an infinitely-respawning enemy, that argument doesn't hold water for that particular item. (I know that you can also charm Magic Tabs from Aliens and Speed Tabs from Panels, but I think they don't respawn even if you access the Black Omen from a previous era.)
2. Saturn wrote:
There are only a few [sealed chests], and most contain unique and useful items you can't get anywhere else.
I really think chest content should be irrelevant to give any value to the chest itself. It just seems arbitrary to me to only consider a specific type of chest and not all types too. Doors too. I'm curious about other people's opinion on the matter hpwever...
3. Saturn wrote:
Easily definable through the boss music themes.
So Sir Krawlie isn't a boss for you? The bestiary in the DS version classifies him as such, and I know many people - but not all - agree. (I didn't check your run yet to see if you beat him or not. I think it's required in a glitchless run anyway, but that's not the point - I'm just trying to determine what 100% should be.)
4. Saturn wrote:
I don't think seeing a repeated battle for more than 3 hours (if optimized) is a good option to include in an entertainment oriented 100% run.
I agree. My point was the opposite however: if you need an exception to the rule, why have the rule in the first place?
1. Only Power Tabs are unlimited, while I was talking about all Tab types together. The other good thing about getting them all is that the run can serve as a video-guide on all the Tab locations.
2. There are only 2 types of chests, the sealed ones and the regular. The former amount is pretty limited and contains only valuable, rare items that are to like ~80% required/worth to get anyway, while the latter is available everywhere with many of them having useless duplicate items you don't need.
3. Maybe a small mini-boss at most. Either way, he was defeated as well.
4. Because 1. the Spekkio battles give you additional Tabs required for a complete list, and 2. represent interesting battles that can especially in the later forms be a real challenge if you don't use the right strategies against them.
Derakon wrote:
I'm kind of surprised that the Pink Nu battle doesn't consist of Ayla critting him for 9999 over and over again. Is he immune to physical damage or something?
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SmashManiac wrote:
1.
collecting all Power/Magic/Speed Tabs (except of LV99 Pink Nu reward)
Most of them are just lying around, but some of them require completing events, so it's debatable. Personally I wouldn't include this in 100% definition but it makes sense. The Pink Nu exception doesn't however. (More on that later.)
2.
opening all the Sealed Chests (Black Boxes) / Sealed Doors in every time period
Why sealed chests and not normal chests? Why upgrading sealed chests a requirement? Actually, since when is opening chests and doors considered important for a 100% goal?
3.
defeating every boss
How do you define what's a boss in this game? The DS database? Shouldn't that include Pink Nu?
4.
defeating every form of Spekkio (except LV99 Pink Nu)
OK, I understand that grinding is boring as hell - that's why I never attempted to beat Pink Nu on the SNES version. But really, he's the hardest boss of the game! It's ridiculous to not include him if you include all the other easy forms!
5.
learning all Single/Double/Triple Techs for each character
I understand the logic behind this. However, by excluding Pink Nu because of grinding, then this requirement should be excluded as well because it also (in theory at least) requires grinding.
1. Tabs are limited, rare items that are quite useful, so they should have their own spot independent of regular items. The only debatable thing is the Pink Nu exception, and only a few of them require to finish otherwise meaningless events, but they are done very quickly while also showing more of the game.
2. Same as with Tabs. There are only a few of them, and most contain unique and useful items you can't get anywhere else. Upgrading them is not a requirement and was only done when needed.
3. Easily definable through the boss music themes.
4. I don't think seeing a repeated battle for more than 3 hours (if optimized) is a good option to include in an entertainment oriented 100% run. But here is a video of that battle showing how it would look in a TAS:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_SP2yO8Abms
5. There were actually less than 10 avoidable battles needed solely for tech point earning purposes, and all of them were on the way without any need for backtracking or repetition, with only the exception of the Tyrano Lair where it was required to get Tabs and unique items afterwards. I don't think this can be a comparison to LV99 grinding.
la mammal wrote:
How about allowing the use of a glitch to activate the final form of Spekkio?
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Hopeful Death wrote:
I noticed how you skipped the jerky event because you don't really get anything from it, but you watched the Toma Pop event even though that doesn't get you anything either(you don't need to do that to do Giant's Claw). Seems kind of inconsistent.
Tomas Grave must be visited due to the Speed Tab anyway. Besides the Pop event makes a visible hole of the GiantClaw entrance on the map, and the delay is relatively small, which IMO is enough to warrant its use from the 100% perspective.
Spacecow wrote:
I third Vykan's request; there is so much that happens, I'd love to see your strategies/tricks/routes/other thoughts as the run goes on.
The strategies were refined step by step with the help of multiple tests, which I did before the final recording of the critical parts. The route-planning got only difficult after you get the flying Epoch. Basically I tried to design one that keeps the time-switches and flying distances to a minimum, while getting the most helpful stuff as soon as possible to save time on the later quests.
Radiant wrote:
I'm not sure how you can call this 100%, really; you've just picked some things to do and some other things not to do based on no clear criterion.
The criteria is listed in the submission text, which I think is clear enough.
Bisqwit wrote:
I was somewhat disappointed to find out that you discarded equipment when exiting Blackbird. I was worried that your "100% completion will not have all equipment in the end after all.
You get it back after the Dalton fight, as the equipment chests were apparently taken into the Epoch for some reason. The only thing that gets lost is money, which I could afford through the expensive item compensation, for a serious time gain.
Bisqwit wrote:
Why did you not complete Black Omen three times, though? Is it not possible to get tabs from each one of them? Doesn't not doing that actually undermine the "collecting all Power/Magic/Speed Tabs" goal?
Luckily as Derakon said the Tab-giving enemies (with the exception of the unlimited Tubster near the 2 Nu room) do not reappear after their first encounter, and there is no stuff that I couldn't get from the 1st Omen trip already to make a repetition necessary.
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Vykan12 wrote:
1. What was your goal from grinding in Tyrano's lair (seemed to be to get Marle to learn haste)
2. How did you plan out getting each character to learn all their techniques? In particular, how you figured out how to shuffle your party in the Dark Omen so everyone learns their double/triple techs as well.
3. How you planned out money usage
4. Explain some of the equipment decisions you make since it's done way too fast in real-time to keep up
5. How you distributed tabs (!!!)
1. Main goal was learning Charm for Black Tyrano, as otherwise 2 Tabs get missed. Shortly after that you also need it for 2 nowhere else to get Helms from the beasts before Mt.Woe. Having Haste was just an additional handy bonus to that, which due to the considerably faster Tyrano fight and stronger characters for the next quests probably didn't cause much of a delay in the long run compared to skipping the leveling up part completely.
2+3. Many tests and various calculations. The good thing about techs is that you only have to concentrate on the triples, the doubles get all learned along the way as long as the required singles are already available. So that's 10 battles that have to be planned in with the most efficient character combination for each one.
4. Slowdown function might be handy in such cases. Generally the equipment was changed if it helped to speed up / survive a battle for a given character combination without additional healing delays.
5. That can be seen pretty well in the run. The idea is to max out the status of the most used character to benefit from the tab gains as long as possible.
hero of the day wrote:
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Bahamut wrote:
One thing that kinda puzzle me is why do we see a couple misses? Does it affect the RNG damage output?
The misses depend on the battle RNG, and happen only on enemies that have unusual high evade rates, on which they can only rarely be completely avoided. The strategies used for them were the fastest I could get after various tests.
The damage numbers also depend on the battle RNG, and are fixed. This is why I could pre-equip the needed armor on Robo long before the critical battle where he takes damage, to adapt his defense in order to get the last HP-digit being a 9, which is required to get most damage out of the Crisis Arm.
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Vykan12 wrote:
Also, seeing as you get like 80% of the game's treasures, why not collect them all and have a more complete 100% goal?
Because many of them are far out of the way and contain useless items I already have. It would hurt the entertainment value for no real gain. Most of the nearby items that were collected multiple times were expensive ones that got sold for cash later, in order to buy stuff you can't find for free, as well as for the clone to cancel the mimic game pretty early, easily making up for all the collection delays.
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Bisqwit wrote:
Did you double-steal the black boxes?
Yes, in all time periods as mentioned in the submission text.
Nicos wrote:
1. you did not complete the guardia mini games ( beating gato , getting all the clones.... )
2. you did not fill chrono's house with cats
3. some criticals could be avoided saving some frames (the first battle comes in mind but there maybe some other battles doin' the same thing)
1+2. I think this is too arbitrary, time consuming, and repetitive to make it worth, also because you don't get anything useful from it at all. For all the clones you would have to get 7x40 Silver points, which would be unacceptable from the entertainments point of view.
3. Right, the very first battle critical could be skipped by a slight delay before starting the game, but unfortunately I realized that when being too far into the run already. The delay is just a fraction of a second, which I don't think matters that much, and the critical is good for variety here as well. All the other criticals were all either required to speed the battles up, or unavoidable without bigger delays.
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I see, thanks. Too bad, as the gameclock completion is the primary source for time measurement for most of the Super Metroid speedrunner, thus surely more familiar to the potential watcher than a time that can vary solely to different emulation behavior.
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Was it necessary to obsolete the completely unrelated ingame any% with this run, despite it following one of the most traditional goals of lowest game clock completion in legit/glitchless conditions?
I thought there was a Vault section that apparently exists for TAS-records where this run would exactly fit in, if not anywhere else.
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Cpadolf:
As Reeve said, the bomb spread was purely a show off demonstrating it's extreme rise underwater when being suitless.
Hero:
1. The walljump loses around 5 frames here, which I highly doubt would be slower than a morph-demorph delay along with it's greater speed requirement for the jump.
2. The problem is that in LN it will be very hard to gain energy from refills due to any refilling delay resulting in energy loss from the heat, so you will be forced to repeat a room multiple times quickly killing enemies on the way (respawning enemies won't give you any gains AFAIK). You'd have to gain 2 tanks that way (saving the Rtank until after the hidden LN Etank seems impossible due to not having any killable in time enemies before it), so the delay would be serious either way. Then you'd have to count in considerable delays at Ridley and especially Draygon from not having the additional Super Missiles, which together would probably end up close to the time it takes to clear the green brinstar hideout ingame time wise.
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Nice run that shows a lot of unique tricks, with the mocktroid bridge to charge the pre-Draygon shinespark being one of the highlights. Also an interesting route choice to get the Grapple Beam for quicker Maridia due to the unmorph glitch, which I didn't consider to be that useful at first. All in all a solid and well planned out run. Voting yes.
Now that you guys reached a 0:27, which actually was the goal for my RBOv2 after doing various calculations that confirmed it's possibility even though very close, I think I can put that project, that was relatively quickly recorded in late 2008 until the defeat of Ridley and left untouched since then to rest, and share it for those interested. It uses a slightly different route that skips the Grapple Beam, and because of that is 1057 frames ahead of this run after the Ridley fight despite already having Ice Beam collected and not using the early Blue Brinstar E-Tank shortcut:
RBOv2
In the end, it seems getting or skipping Grapple might be around same fast, but the former is certainly more entertaining, so collecting it is a good choice after all.
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petrie911 wrote:
I do have a question, though. How much time do the High Jump Boots and Plasma Beam save? Would grabbing the Spazer for the Murder Beam save time?
Together around 25 seconds with all circumstances included. Getting Spazer for murderbeam is pretty exactly same fast in ingame, but much slower in realtime.
amaurea wrote:
1. When exiting Phantoon's room, 6 frames are lost, but 5 are then regained during the next room due to higher speed exiting the room, for a total of 1 frame lost. Was this in order to gather more drops from Phantoon?
2. When crossing the lava seahorse room at 8:14, you do not roll through the lava like Kriole&Taco do. This seems to cost about 29 frames. Did the Hi-Jump boots make the lower route too slow?
3. In the first room in lower norfair you lose 5 frames by having lower speed than Taco&Kriole, who start by going left to build up speed. Was this also due to Hi-Jump boots?
1. Right, it was to get more drops.
2. Mockball is skipped to get 2 more refills in favor of the slower pipe bug refills after Speed Booster.
3. Yes.
hero of the day wrote:
My main concern with this run is that it might not be using the best in-game route. I don't know if Saturn looked into this or not, but I am pretty sure it would have been much faster to skip the plasma beam, and instead get the 2nd PB pack in red brinstar. This would give Samus a full 15 pbs for the PB wave combos on mother brain.
I tested this. The 3PB pack route is definitely not much faster. Even with 15 PB combos, you'd still lose more than a half minute on MB, which combined with the 3rd PB pack detour is pretty exactly same fast as the Plasma detour. I think showing more of the game by traveling through additional rooms and introducing the strongest beam instead of standing in the corner doing repetitive PB combos for the same amount of time is more entertaining though, hence that route choice.
hero of the day wrote:
Another thing that bothered me was why the lower route was taken when exiting the highjump boots area. I thought going towards the missile pack is faster.
The lower route gets you an additional Super Missile for the skipped pack, which can later be used to open a Missile door faster to even it out, while saving a lot of realtime from the item screen as well.
hero of the day wrote:
I also don't like how pause screens were used to save less than 1 second of in-game time. De-equiping the speed booster is a good example.
The pause screen is well justified. Have a look at amaurea's comparison from 9:00 till 9:20. It not only saves ~2,5 seconds, but also 20 HP from the skipped damage boost and shinespark, while also getting an additional PB refill.
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lxx4xNx6xxl:
The other projects to that time were Any%s for Redesign and original.
Kriole wrote:
Als, if anyone could solve this:
Pie
Taco had the idea, just started messing around with it. If it's somehow possible to land on the crumble block for more than one frame, a lot of cool new possibilities would open up.
Solved
Requires Grapple though, which for some reason boosts you up there unlike anything else I could find after a few tries. This tech also works on solid blocks btw.
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Amazing WIP. It's cool to see you guys managed to team up on this difficult project, as that should guarantee a solid performance both strategy and optimization wise.
And we already have one example: The early bomb-/HJ-/enemieless Blue Brinstar E-tank, which I admit to have dismissed as impossible without trying much in my previous RBO attempts, despite knowing all the needed techs for it by that time, and also because I kind of rushed to make rapid progress due to everything else already planned out. Clever find and obviously a huge timesaver.
As a sign of appreciation for this effort, allow me to share something that might be of use for any RBO run using an optimal TAS route. Actually planned to be a surprise for my RBOv2, I don't mind spoiling it anymore seeing how well this run is coming along. I didn't finish that run due to other TAS projects, and might as well cancel it if you guys manage to meet all the goals I have set for my version, so good luck with it.
Blue Brinstar Hopper PB Shortcut
More info in the description.
Enjoy!
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I finally have great news - my Redesign project is finished!
Here's the final WIP:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uj9CexMWOSQ
Featuring the latter part of the Zebes Escape, with many little yet tricky techs in various rooms, as well as solid steam manipulation.
Also more than satisfying the goal to get a sub-hour completion time.
Enjoy!
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Right to the time of the ongoing FIFA World Cup, I thought this might be a good demonstration, so here we go:
Nintendo World Cup (U) - Final Match: GER vs ARG
(recorded on FCEU v0.98.15)
This demo shows how to beat the overall strongest CPU controlled team of the game, Argentina, very clearly by using optimal tactics and team management.
Also available on YouTube.
Enjoy!