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CUI wrote:
How to better control your luck. Kill the little monster and let it fall out to recover its energy. Is there any skill
It's called RNG. Your timing ($1C, frame counter value) affects it. You can make movements differently to see if you can change the output, like with different X and Y position when you shoot. Drops will change by every 3 frames if I remember correctly. 1UP tends to have 1% drop rate but not sure about others. At Gemini stage you might want to "wiggle" left and right to lose subpixels on the ice floor to see if it changes anything. Sometimes drop manipulation is hard and I'm facing issues to get right drops at Gemini for now.
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CUI wrote:
Shinryuu wrote:
CUI wrote:
Shinryuu wrote:
Yeah, that was my old work from Christmas. I have updated most of the gameplay but I still need to adjust things further. Gemini is around 10 15 frames faster for now + some lag frames less. I am open for cooperation so we can also work on this together. warmCabin might also help us with this run.
Here's the userfile, https://tasvideos.org/UserFiles/Info/638106622834197466
That's great. I want to join the cooperation, but my ability is limited and I don't have much experience
You have great ideas and that is good. I can also optimize hard parts.
At frame 2400 or so, it should be faster to land directly.. At the place where the shrimp monster appears, my frame drop is particularly serious.
I can't control it. I can only modify it a little. I don't know where the problem is
https://tasvideos.org/Profile/UserFiles
It is hard because "underwater lag" advances by every 4 frames and can mess your inputs easily. Also, real lag must be eliminated by using different key pressings at different frames such as pressing left or right at the right time. This is a tedious progress but you can still tame it a bit.
EDIT1. I managed to fiddle a bit with underwater lag and real lag so it saves additional 4 frames, https://tasvideos.org/UserFiles/Info/638106872196476149 We can also continue to discuss about this game here, https://tasvideos.org/Forum/Topics/23331
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CUI wrote:
Shinryuu wrote:
Yeah, that was my old work from Christmas. I have updated most of the gameplay but I still need to adjust things further. Gemini is around 10 15 frames faster for now + some lag frames less. I am open for cooperation so we can also work on this together. warmCabin might also help us with this run.
Here's the userfile, https://tasvideos.org/UserFiles/Info/638106622834197466
That's great. I want to join the cooperation, but my ability is limited and I don't have much experience
You have great ideas and that is good. I can also optimize hard parts.
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Yeah, that was my old work from Christmas. I have updated most of the gameplay but I still need to adjust things further. Gemini is around 10 15 frames faster for now + some lag frames less. I am open for cooperation so we can also work on this together. warmCabin might also help us with this run.
Here's the userfile, https://tasvideos.org/UserFiles/Info/638106622834197466
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This looks more polished and clever this time. There are still some improvements that are possible. Gemini stage for example can be tweaked a bit with different lag manipulation and by optimizing movement a bit. There's a small zip in the speed elevator room at Flame Man stage that helps to gain more frames as well. I have only done some small comparison so far.
I have worked on this game together with warmCabin. Here is our second current WIP cause I have not recorded the most recent one which contains a bunch of changes and small improvements.
Link to video
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I've investigated Gemini stage a lot during my free time. I also spent some time to understand this new method I found to get inside walls. It seems there's also other thing that is tied to it because you can actually not to levitate when you jump at a correct frame upon leaving the zip position. When you hit the floor you teleport to the up and I can use this to enter walls that are located somewhere up. So far 968 frames saved.
Link to video
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I've tried to get a major zip skip to work several times at Gemini and today I succeed. It saves around 890 frames but it still needs attention and optimisation. This particular glitch needed up and down pressings to get inside a wall. I'm still not quite sure about its mechanics but it can be used to break things further in tight places. I force my way in.
Link to video
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Looks good and it contains clever ideas. We were also working on this project with warmCabin but it has been on hiatus because of this new levitation glitch. It needs more discussion in my opinion because that glitch breaks the whole game.
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Completed Bubbleman stage not too long time ago. I've found a good amount of improvements for Quickman stage and I'm trying to get it at least 40-50 frames faster. I also need to check my inputs from the very beginning at some point and fix possible errors. More information inside video description.
Link to video
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This is shows the new route I've been working on. It's currently 95 frames faster but in a theory around 100 frames is possible before the boss room.
Link to video
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I didn't want to pollute published run section so I'm typing in to this section instead. I made some fixes and calculations and here are my timings for three first stages. I'm comparing against cui's new run.
* Airman is theorically 88 frames faster but only if frame rule behaves well and around 80 frames if it's not. Double death needs some waiting and in my previous attempt it was 3 full frame rule cycles slower.
* Heatman seems to be 35 frames faster and this seems to be quite solid
* Crashman is 70 frames faster but it might still need some planning
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I didn't notice this until now. This seems to be pretty good and it avoids unnecessary jumping as well. Cloud area was cleverly done at Airman. I will watch the rest of the video anytime soon.
I have worked on this hack at random and I've finished three first stages. It seems that cui found a better way to handle Airman cloud area and I tweaked it a bit further and by using one menu entry instead. I've gained 66 frames so far. My Heat and Crash stages seems to be much more faster but I haven't done any real comparisons yet. I compared my Airman fight (without double death because on my setup it cannot be used without losing time) and with cui's (with double death version), my battle is still around 24 frames faster.
Here's an old, partially deprecated video. It doesn't complete Heat or show Crashman at all.
Link to video
This shows my recent idea for Crashman (Converted from webm so quality might be kind of bad)
Link to video
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I picked up this obscure game when I was browsing some Mega Man / Rockman related hacks. I don't know if this hack deserves any attention besides having some nostalgic vibe or something. Rejected submissions are sub-optimal but there's a good enough run available at NicoNico (which contains some nice ideas) and aglasscage and friends made a nice WIP I found floating around the forums. I've been comparing against this particular WIP because its quality is pretty good actually.
Airman stage is basically 4 frames faster but I have not found a way to beat frame rule so no savings. Heatman is tricky because how you deal with those annoying apes. I found a way to fetch some subpixels from them. I also tested many different Item 2 setups but I still can't say are they optimal. At least Heatman is 32 frames faster for now. I also wrote into this very topic around 17 years ago it seems? Horrifying.
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Looks great! I've been busy with work and family but I'll try to keep these saved for the future. I need to dig this game further. I'm still fighting with JPN version because Starman RNG is a big mess. USA version contains a longer intro and best RNG can be achieved by waiting for one frame but it's a lot slower after Darkman animation.
I believe that the actual skip at Crystal is fastest method possible at the moment but experimenting stuff won't hurt at all.
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Baddap1 wrote:
Shinryuu wrote:
I started to make a run for this game and I've been comparing my work against Pike's work.
I'm glad that an experienced TASer like you is interested on this game for a new run.
I'm extremely curious about this particular skip that was found on Rockman 5: Air Sliding and replicate it on the original game, basically a deathwarp that takes you directly to the boss checkpoint. A similar skip is possible on Mega Man 5: Second Strike. The thing is that these two skips have a different circumstances.
Rockman 5: Air Sliding
Link to video
Mega Man 5: Second Strike
Link to video
Thanks for the thumbs up! I have seen these skips several times being done on hacks. FinalFighter investigated skip glitch not too long time ago and he was unable to find other places to perform that besides Crystal Man stage. Hacks tend to have objects and stuff arranged much more differently or that's how I see it right now. I don't know how to give you an actual or precise answer because no one really knows :D
I was able to contact Pike but that person is quite busy right now. If you have any interest or if you want to be a part of this project, feel free to do so.
EDIT: I suspect that some of those objects appearing around at ~38s have something do with that skip glitch, especially the ones dropping those skull bombs. If you happen to have fm2 files I can try to ask FinalFighter to look at them.
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I don't want to be a brick but I've been working on this game because I got interested about it when warmCabin talked about this particular hack. I also work on Rockman no Constancy but its new changes feels a bit off so I picked this up. I also didn't know about this submission until today. I started to look at this game in the morning and here are my findings so far.
Gemini Man = 212 frames faster
Snake Man = 227 frames faster
Flame Man = 87 frames faster
Plug Man = 191 frames faster (Unfinished)
Most of the time comes from different tricks such as using Gemini weapon during zips, lag handling and trying to prevent possible stops.
I enjoyed watching tcu's work and it had pretty good Gemini weapon usage across all stages. I also agree that other/more of people should make tool-assisted speedruns for hacked games. They've gotten really unique. I also see no reason why this shouldn't be accepted because it clearly shows people something different and new. I'm voting yes.
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I started to make a run for this game and I've been comparing my work against Pike's work. I noticed couple of things why I'm going to switch from US to JP version instead. First reason is that you can actually select a stage 153 frames faster on JP version because it doesn't have an extra screen at the beginning. Second and the most important reason is that after you defeat Dark Man, JP version is around 18.3 seconds faster! Nothing was changed but Japanese text appears faster and doesn't have that much dialogue.
On JP version it's impossible to achieve same asteroid manipulation setup for Star Man (this is pretty damn hard to figure out) so I'm going to lose at least 4 frames over Pike's effort on US version. On US version one freame wait was needed before you started the stage but on JP I have serious issues on RNG because I'm there 153 frames sooner.
This project might need other people around because this game is a horrible RNG lagfest and there's always a random way to do something faster. GlitchMan and Pike might have the best knowledge about this game at the moment.
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This is the most optimal route I've made so far. This version took a lot of time to finish. This relies on current $1C (frame rule) position and how I should live with it. I call this (W1 + Item 1 and W2/W3 big refill timing abuse version). I forgot to mention that if I choose not to use one extra Item 1 at W1, my frame rule position is pretty bad and I'm going to lose a lot of time. Even picking a refill up from having higher amount of energy won't save you.
F = 0 (0 frames ahead) - Stylistic changes
H = 0 (0 frames ahead) - Stylistic changes
A = 10 (10 frames ahead) - Menu exploit, subpixel tweaks to avoid getting hit and earlier DelayRightScroll
C = 8 (18 frames ahead) - New boss fight
Q = 16 (34 frames ahead) - Crash boss glitch allows partially skip a first screen
M = 0 (34 framed ahead) - Stylistic changes
B = 39 (73 frames ahead) - Used Item 2 at the beginning, abuse to have 1 energy for spike zips and DelayDownScroll setup
W = 13 (86 frames ahead) - Switch immediately to H and perform DelayUpScroll (In the past this was proven impossible for many years and I went back to investigate it at random)
W1 = 24 (110 frames ahead) - $1C was nice, thanks to earlier stages
W2 = 0 (110 frames ahead) - Big refill "not doing a full charge" for $1C optimizations
W3 = 0 (110 frames ahead) - Big refill "not doing a full charge" (same $1C but extra Item 1 = no idea where to use it)
W4 = 0 (110 frames ahead) - Menu exploit didn't help
W5 = 0 (110 frames ahead) - Menu exploit didn't help
W6 = 1 frame saved (111 frames ahead) - Menu exploit galore
Total saving: 111 frames
Note: I still have an extra Item 1. It should be used starting from W3 stage. W3 is problematic cause it can save around 10 frames, I need a lot more to beat a 16 frame rule. Two Item 1s can do that but that saves 16 frames and using Item 1 at Alien fight saves 27 frames alone. At W4 there's no room to use it and at final Item 1 screen it only gives a ton of lag where I tried to gain some subpixels. It cannot be used before W3 because I'm otherwise getting extended charging duration. It's extremely important not to do full charges if you need to bypass some unnecessary waiting and where $1C is getting in the way. At W2 I charged from 12 to 14 and used 3x Item1s after that. At W3 I charged from 11 to 14 as well.
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Anyone working on this game or have WIPs to share? I started to do some experiments.
- By using same asteroid manipulation you can actually take damage from an asteroid to drop really fast down. Big health refill might be a problem later on. If combined with a strategy I mentioned below it will save at least 10 frames.
- At the beginning you can lose pixels for an more optimal drop to save couple of pixels. This needs a good position and it relies on sliding timer as well.
EDIT1. It seems these are already being used by Pike when I checked userfiles out!
Pike wrote:
I got a problem. Player gets in the wall by RJ in the initial movie that skips Boss Rush posted by paosidufygth. That reminds me RJ may also be used to perform a glitch allowing Megaman to pass through walls like SA. However, it doesn’t work. I wonder why the same inputs result in the different consequences(though coordinates are not identical, I don’t think that is the reason because in RJ-movie Megaman gets deeper in the wall).
Is there anyone who can explain?
http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/393841925/RJ%20fails.fm2http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/1843265743/SA%20succeeds.fm2
I'm not a technical expert but to me it looks like that Rush Jet version somehow gets its position being reset when you go to the menu. Super Arrow version doesn't seem to have that problem and it looks like that arrow might actually push you from the back so you stay in your position inside the ceiling.
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I've had some "free time" and I got things to roll so here's my current progress so far. I might share a *.fm2/*.fm3 file with markdowns or a movie with subtitles at some point.
F = 0 (0)
H = 0 (0)
A = 10 (10)
C = 8 (18)
Q = 16 (34)
M = 0 (34)
B = 0 (34)
W = 0 (34)
W1 = 0 (34)
Total: 34 frames ahead
Dr. Wily 1 = Finished at $1C 80 (16*5)
