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Okay, so here's my current update. I actually have to do a lot of backtracking and I'm playing parts over and over again. I use both text editing, manual gameplay (faster on familiar parts) and TASEditor for fine tuning. Still quite a time consuming project but I want to polish this just a bit further on.
Flashman:
- No frames saved
- Stylistic changes
Heatman:
- No frames saved
- Stylistic changes and different boss fight
Third Item 1 manipulation route also started at this stage. I usually had to go back and see if I can something. This also meant that I had to play s lot of parts again
Airman:
- 10 frames saved (frame rule + 2 penalty frames)
- Some small gameplay changes also included
Menu exploit gave me another possibility to perform delay scroll earlier. This took a long time to optimize because of Item 1 and their lovely values (Airman gate zip, Crashman beginning, Quickman left zip) I also had to aim for a correct subpixel position to make final screen not to have longer jumps from those red devils.
Crashman
- 8 frames saved (frame rule)
- Small stylistic changes
- New boss fight method
- Delay down scroll faster
Menu exploit doesn't yield good results before death and it causes delay trick at the ladders to fail. Frame parity and too low/negative numbers which is a good indicator that I fail at something. Delay down scroll is 2-frames faster due to different X position and I used Item 2 as a fart shot to avoid an overflow (this doesn't work at the ladders). This fart shot also moves third Item 1 value into this "000 | . | . " and it's my main source of issues right now but I will tell that in Quickman section. New boss fight allows to enter Quickman stage offscreen (actually an old method) but it got optimized in various ways to be useable
Quickman
- 16 frames saved (frame rule * 2)
- Stylistic changes
I finally got pieces together to perform left-kind-of-zip optimally. I couldn't find a proper value because I was stuck inside a wall during Crashman's fight. I found this by going back to the Airman and I used two Item 1s differently so first value got changed twice. I had to make sure it wasn't too much of off so I could perform gate zip normally as well. After that I found a frame at Crash fight (second hit) to roll first value to "064 . | . |". This is needed to save 2+ frames. After this I had extremely hard time to manipulate values for final zip and for Metalman. I had to use extra shots to get the zip done in time, but I lost my ability to optimize values for Metalman and now it fails hard. This is mainly because of that fart shot at Crash. RNG seed is horrible and its speed is faster compared to the second Item 1. This means that jumping on it is impossible during zip setups.
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AngerFist wrote:
Lord know for how many years people keep discovering new ways of finding improvements for this game. Great job warmCabin. I hope these new improvements can be spliced into a future tas.
I've been already working on a new one which contains a couple of fixes including that menu thing warmCabin discovered. It helped me to save exactly the amount I needed to perform DelayScroll sooner at Airman's stage. I'm guessing this project is going to be at least 40-60 frames faster for now and it's going to need a hell a lot of work for that.
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I've seen that before from you and it looks good Baddap.
I also started looking at Topman stage. Previous authors did quite impressive work on both subpixel and lag handling. Impressive. I've gotten higher subpixels without getting frames so far. At least I gained a frame when I handled things a bit differently at the long screen with those driving helmet enemies.
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warmCabin wrote:
Still can't believe you saved 332 frames. The end is never the end is never the end is never the end...
This time around, I think I contributed a subpixel save in Metal, the little ladder boosts in Crash, and a random 1-up in Heat for no reason. You could say I saved maybe 2 / 332 frames = 0.6% of the time in this movie, so I'm totally fine not being an author. In case that special thanks section raises any eyebrows.
Yeah, this is weird on some level. Most of the time comes from both Crashman (196 frames) and Bubbleman (40 frames). Other various tweaks are manipulating Item 1 speed values even more better (I got extremely lucky at times to get things to roll) to break $1C out of the map. As an extra I also abused frame rule's behavior which I found while making the previous run. I bet you've seen my writings about this infamous frame rule shifting and its annoyances surrounding it.
Haha, yeah. That's about right, I guess? Good thing to hear that you're fine with that. Beware the contributions I might have hidden in my pocket for the future...
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Extremely precise calculation. Done correctly. One of the best movies out there. Thank you for making this. I've waited this for so long! Voting "yes". Only for you..
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Memory wrote:
For clarification's sake, do you obtain magnet beam by spawning a physical magnet beam pickup and have Mega Man touch it or do you more or less have it written into your inventory?
We spawn and collect it. It appears pretty damn fast as well.
EDIT1. At Iceman you can't see the object because it's behind of you but at Wily 2 you can see it for couple of frames. I attached a screenschot from Wily 2 stage:
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I don't know if a "clean encode" is possible at the moment because it's not that simple. pirohiko uses some chroma stuff for the mini window and it doesn't update itself in real time as far I'm aware.
This script interrupts the execution of 0xD65B if you're interested to check how it works. This is done by pirohiko. This needs LuaGD installed as well, color_change1.lua @ gitlab
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WarHippy wrote:
Shinryuu wrote:
fcxiaopengyou wrote:
A few questions:
2. Pass boss glitch stages, is it necessary to start with 50000 points?
2. Yes, it's necessary. We wait for a few frames before we start the stage to get 50.000 points. It takes a lot of time after you beat the stage with a larger amount of points.
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the levels where you skip the boss and the score count never happens. Specifically; Iceman, Gutsman, and Bombman. I'm curious, too.
That information is incorrect because score count do happen. Selecting the fastest (in this case 70.000 points) would be around 20-21 frames slower. This can be tested easily on Gutsman stage via copy-pasting if you're curious.
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Bluely wrote:
Unable to locate package sdl-gnash 🤦♂️
I haven't been on a Debian/Ubuntu based system for around 9-10 years but it seems your repositories are out of sync I believe. You could try to update your repositories/system first with 'apt-get update' as a super user.
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Thanks for the positive feedback!
Nicos wrote:
everything has already been said, incredible job guys, it's not even 3 day in the year and already we got a star worthy submission( and maybe a GDQ live showcase ? )
great job, easy yes.
Haha, we had a pretty strict roadmap for doing this and I'm glad we got it done just a bit after year changed. I'm somehow tempted to show this for a large audience as well. I usually tend to take no credit and I fall back in to the shadows instead.
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fcxiaopengyou wrote:
The king of the TAS！
I knew it can be improved, but I didn't expect to improve so much!
A few questions:
1. cutman stage also have green helicopters, can pass boss by using glitch？
2. Pass boss glitch stages, is it necessary to start with 50000 points?
3. I came across this video, and I don't know if it helps the movie.（here video）
If you have written the answer in your introduction, please forgive my rudeness, because my English level is not high.
Last year your team made MM2，I surprised！
All in all, it's a GREAT movie！Thank you！I really enjoyed it！
And happy 2020 new year！
1. Sadly not every stage contains a possibility to do these heavy glitches. DelayStageClear and other major glitches works on Iceman, Gutsman (2P input is needed), Bombman, W1 and W2.
2. Yes, it's necessary. We wait for a few frames before we start the stage to get 50.000 points. It takes a lot of time after you beat the stage with a larger amount of points.
3. This is interesting. I think I have seen it before. Walking past the tunnel takes a lot of time compared to the zipping it seems. We cannot be pushed back while we zip I think (I've actually tried to take damage at different timings just before I enter the door). I'll look into this (and it seems our group is aware about it by now). That would be really interesting addition, especially on a run that doesn't rely on zips at all. Thanks for notifying us.
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CoolHandMike wrote:
Excellent! Megaman? More like Glitchman!
It does not really need it, but will there be a graphics fix encode? If that is even possible.
I liked the screenshot at 9:08 with the impossible scenario of both Megaman and Bombman standing on spikes.
Thanks. pirohiko is preparing a video which shows a minimap and other information as far I'm aware. Fixed up graphics version might need a lot of work and I don't know on what level that is even possible.
Here's a peek from an old TAS which also used some extra information:
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Challenger wrote:
What an excellent way to start this year, and this new decade!
Seriously, this run is even more surprising than before. Excellent work guys!
Yes vote.
Glad to hear you enjoyed the ride!
Bisqwit wrote:
Awesome and totally unexpected.
I was particular impressed by the new climbing strategies in Fireman and Elecman stages. Such a simple improvement and by no means a new technique, but very effective application.
I was less impressed by the glitch in the Gutsman stage, although I totally did not expect it. (And similarly Iceman, Bombman, Wily1, Wily2)
Fun fact: I have not yet identified the cause of the split-screen effect. Why the game renders that way, and why it persists across stages. I think it is related to the ending; this is also reinforced by the energy bars disappearing. But if it was that simple, the ending itself would be unaffected.
Nice homage of my TAS, using the accelerating teleports in Wily3.
Those climbing strategies were found by Paosidufygth. He tends to make PSX TAS versions whatever the reason is. warmCabin pointed those strategies out so our group started to check Paosidufygth's gameplays after that. He had some pretty good and precise strategies included in them. Some of them were bad as well. Which makes the whole thing.. interesting.
Yes, that's a trade-off for speed. They included a high amount of work but that doesn't always work with entertainment value. We've started to make a version which respects yours and Deign's gameplay so we're not abusing DelayObjectGlitch at all.
I poked FinalFighter about that split-screen effect. I can't seem to remember if this is being discussed before with him. That technique also makes lag to behave differently.
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What you wrote is really informative and nicely put together. I'm glad you were able to make this run and I was able to help you as well. Top notch work!
EDIT1. I forgot to mention that categories aren't that evil. This is quite interesting and it shows how to play the game more normally. Techniques and strategies are surely harder to calculate and perform. There are more variables lying around.
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MrTickles wrote:
How did you zip in Woodman's stage without even teleporting in?
Because we die offscreen with a jump at Bubbleman, we can start from the roof upon entering Woodman. Woodman's stage actually contains a roof and we can exploit that for zipping and DelayScrolls.
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fcxiaopengyou wrote:
Well done! I was happy and watched it three times.
One small question: in W3, can you replenish the power of no.2 machine in advance? It's been a lot faster in detail in W2.
Anyway, this is a great movie, thank you!
----------
(Sorry about my Eng)
Thanks! I also tried that but our issue is that every time you do a weapon change, it takes over 50 frames to do so, also getting a big refill takes a lot of time. We need to keep item1s available as well.
At Wily 2 refilling Item2 would mean an extra weapon change + refill time + switch back to item1 + refill time. We planned our route so we don't have to do any 'unnecessary' weapon changes and refilling along the way.
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warmCabin wrote:
HappyLee wrote:
The difference happens right after the "Ready" screen, after suicide. Please help me confirm this so I can keep working on the comparison video (or I get too confused).
I just tested it. You can indeed press start 4 frames sooner at the ready screen, there. Good catch!
It's enough to beat the 4 frame entry rule, but not enough to beat the 8 frame exit rule. Unless we can shave a single frame off the boss fight, which I don't believe is possible.
The rest of the run syncs!
Thanks for that. I can see why this happened. I'm glad it doesn't brake the boss frame rule and it syncs. Outcome is exactly same. I had to play Bubbleman over and over again on different setups. It seems because of my shifting at Bubbleman, I had to play some of the parts again at Wood and I had to do a lot of comparison via copy-pasting as well. Somehow it affected the door frame rule and that 4 delay for an input got included even I have fixed them off from anywhere else.
I'm requesting that I can use a fixed version even it doesn't save any time. I want to have a polished product instead. I'm available at Thursday evening when I can verify this little mistake by myself even warmCabin already pointed that out and uploaded a movie file as well.
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HappyLee wrote:
Question about Woodman stage: why is it 4 frames slower during suicide to meeting the boss? I see you pressed Start 4 frames later after landing... Is there a framerule involved? (sorry if it's a dumb question)
Sounds like a door frame rule but I suspect that black screen is shorter for some magical reason. I have done a lot of copy-pasting at that stage so it's the only scenario I can think about at this point. I'll be back thursday evening but I'll try to ask warmCabin and aglasscage if they can confirm that for me and see what's the frame you hit the boss and at what position frame rule is.
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jlun2 wrote:
warmCabin wrote:
The old run syncs perfectly to the very end. It's possible that I screwed something up converting the new movie to bk2, but I dunno...
Oh. Huh.
warmCabin wrote:
Yup, that's right. They used Item 2 in Wily 1 instead. It saved a couple weapon switches and refills throughout the run, which was worth it in the end.
Shinryuu wrote:
We used item2 at the beginning of Wily1 and it saved a good amount of time. It saved us from a couple weapon switches and we used a different strategy at Wily 2 as well. We refilled at Wily 3 instead to take the advantage to get as much item1s possible. We saved two item1s from Wily 1 but used them after we we're supposed to refill at Wily 2 but that made it faster and we didn't have to change to the item2 at all. Wily 3 is slower because of these changes but when I enter Wily 4, I gain 32 frames instead doing the old setup like we did on a published one! Wily 4 is 68 frames faster because I updated my position at the top and I did a long zip instead like people do on RTA runs. Wily 5 is faster because I fiddled with subpixels and manipulation and got a frame and I found a new strategy for Quickman and I gained 28 frames from it.
Oh, so the route spans all Wily worlds? As in, this route saved 144+10+68+29 = 251 frames total, but costs 232 frames. This means the new Wily route saved 19 frames in total during the entire Wily 1 to Wily 6 right? Sorry for the confusion, I'm not familiar with this game.
This new Wily route is 32 frames faster compared to the published run when we enter to Wily 4. So all of these changes gave us that time in total. At Wily 4 I save additional 68 frames and additional 29 frames at Wily 5 because of new and updated gameplay.
EDIT. So W1 = 144 frames faster, W2 = 120 frames faster, W3 = 232 frames slower = we are still 32 frames faster vs. old route, but 144 frames faster at the beginning of W4 with every improvement included.
Attached comparison table to make things more clear. It shows what was gained, lost and what's the total amount of saved frames after beating a stage:
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jlun2 wrote:
warmCabin wrote:
Regarding the console verification thing: the run obviously syncs on FCEUX, but it desynced when I converted it to run on BizHawk. It desyncs at the third dog in Wood with NESHawk, and desyncs almost instantly with QuickNES.
None of us have the hardware to test it for real, so we can't say which emulator is the most accurate as of right now.
Would it be fine to check if the previous run also desyncs on BizHawk? It was done on FCEUX as well, and console verified. So it if desyncs (which I havent tried yet btw) on BizHawk 2.3.2, can it be said FCEUX is more accurate with respect to this game?
Edit: Also why was Wily 3 slower again? Am I correct on intrepreting as "Wily 4 68 frame gain only works if 232 frames were lost in Wily 3?
We used item2 at the beginning of Wily1 and it saved a good amount of time. It saved us from a couple weapon switches and we used a different strategy at Wily 2 as well. We refilled at Wily 3 instead to take the advantage to get as much item1s possible. We saved two item1s from Wily 1 but used them after we we're supposed to refill at Wily 2 but that made it faster and we didn't have to change to the item2 at all. Wily 3 is slower because of these changes but when I enter Wily 4, I gain 32 frames instead doing the old setup like we did on a published one! Wily 4 is 68 frames faster because I updated my position at the top and I did a long zip instead like people do on RTA runs. Wily 5 is faster because I fiddled with subpixels and manipulation and got a frame and I found a new strategy for Quickman and I gained 28 frames from it.
Bisqwit wrote:
Awesome work! The ghost script with information was also very entertaining to watch, along with constantly pausing and checking the submission text (which was a bit briefer than I hoped for) for reference.
Thanks! Agreed, they're helpful and easy to understand. warmCabin and pirohiko did a good work.
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