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For some reason I don't seem to fully understand this strip.. but still this makes me feel that Dr. Wily feels like this: "⎝( ¯ ∇ ¯) ⎠BWAHAHAHHA I'M OVERPOWERED"
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finalfighter wrote:
Congratulations , Mr. pirohiko.
We were able finally to defeat BubbleMan!! :)
Time until jumping down doesn't change though it damaged.
In a word, it can be said "the solution" that we were expected.
We began to work on delay in the Woodman stage.
(upscrolling and death)
http://www.yuko2ch.net/rockman/delay-deaty--idea.jpg
This is going to be really interesting :) Can you imagine death and delay at the same time to skip screen?
cstrakm's idea saved 4 frames but I pushed it to 5 frames but 5 frames wasn't enought to break Quickman's frame rule so I had to do something for it and I was able to zip really quickly in the second zipping. After my discovery I gained much time and lost some to black screen. I investigated things there and there and was able to perform first Item1 scene in the Metalman stage 2 frames faster by different Item1 positioning (Quickman stage affected to it). For some reason boss battle gave me trendemous amount of time about 5-6 frames or so. When I entered Bubbleman stage the distance was in 20 frames. I had problems in the stage but I was able to manipulate enemies better (less lag) in the place where that mother fish is to gain 2 frames more.
This was somewhat interesting experience because one trick affected all of these events and scenes!
Hahaha that was bloody and incredible result! Who would ever though this was in the end possible to do that fast . I got this movie from finalfighter early this morning and I've been investigating it since then. It seems that the key is even more harder to find from woodman's upscrolling because Mega Man is not in the screen and Heatman's weapon doesn't seem to help much to get instructions smaller. What I've experienced so far I was able to get 1400 instructions (or a bit less) with a slow performation.
It is good to get less than 100 instructions and seek even more because there is a possibility for the scrolling. Thumbs up!
These instructions appears in my movie :
Crashman = 10 instractions
Bubbleman = 4 instractions
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TaoTao wrote:
Some movie examples and delay:
But, it seems that delay from justscroll is about 200 instructions when we don't wait any extra enemies. This is strange. We'll need more deep analysis.
This is something I haven't thought also this sounds really weird. Maybe it does have something to do when second crab comes into the screen or when you take damage so can't it change something around?
Thanks for the .lua scripts you did they will be a big help :)
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TaoTao wrote:
Hello.
I found a "temporary" solution of bubbledownscrolling. But this is not so optimal because it needs to wait one extra enemy and wastes about 2 seconds. According to Shinryuu, it saves only 12 frames.
About downscrolling, Bisqwit already described its mechanism in this article. But, I want to make the cause of the failure in downscrolling a bit more clear.
In the first place, when rockman touches the bottom of the screen, $82A1 makes a check to determine whether scrolling can occur. And, when downscrolling succeeds, the flow of code is like below:
$829E -> $C7A5 -> $C000 -> NMI($CFED) on $C006-$C019 -> $82A1
And, when downscrolling fails, the flow of code is like below:
$829E -> $C7A5 -> $C000 -> normal bank-switching(NMI doesn't occur) -> NMI
(NMI can occur before $C7A5, but it's quite a rare case in bubbleman stage)
In short, when downscrolling fails, NMI occurs after $82A1 had already been executed. $C000 is also called by various codes except $C7A5, but NMI during these calls never affects the success or failure in downscrolling.
So, we have to adjust the timing of NMI to achieve downscrolling, like below:
$C7A5 -> $C000 -> NMI on $C006-$C019
To know the actual timing of NMI, the trace logger of FCEUX is useful. For example, if $C7A5 is followed by 1000 instructions until NMI, we have to make the program execute about 1000 more instructions before $C7A5 to achieve downscrolling (In other words, we have to generate more delay of 1000 instructions).
Note: If the shutter is not completely seen, $C7A5 is never executed, so downscrolling never succeeds.
Next, I will post how to measure delay using the trace logger of FCEUX.
Oh, I didn't expect you to release/tell this information to here!
Really good news TaoTao and thanks for giving and also sharing this information with everyone. I'm really looking forward to this and also I'll try to help you with this much as I can :)
This information should be most likely vital to build LuaBot to aim for "Just to scroll" theory like FinalFighter said. In facr if bot lacks these values it cannot know well how to succeed and it only wastes time.
Like seen in your "temporary" solution it seems or if I recall and remember correctly jumping height also have a big role in your succeeding percent so it is good not to jump "fast jumps" and because music code is important it is OK to change weapon few frames later and so on to test things further.
We are trying to solve the mystery of using only 3xItem1s and 1xPause and it should be possible to perform. If that happens bubbledownscrolling part will save hige amount of time.
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nineko wrote:
ZeXr0, you're awesome, and you're officially my new hero. Now I can finally see some movies I never managed to get.
By the way, keep in mind that some movies already have an archive.org link, so you can avoid to upload them if you want.
Seconded. Dumb me because I haven't clicked this thread before.. this will come really handy :)
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Woah! Thanks for commenting my work. I gladly hear comments and recommendations if there is something you are curious about.
Also Maximum thanks for the TAS Movie Editor because it came really handy in many project :)
This is meant to be used in the bubbledownscrolling part. Be sure to stop your emulator where you want bot to play (Stop -> Run Lua Script -> Maximize your speed).
According to FinalFighter this needs much improvement and planning because Bubble's downscroll succeeding percent is extremely low and the problem lies in the music code because it turns back to its normal state matter of what.
Mr. TaoTao from Japan is willing to help and also trying to make a lua bot but much more advanced one.
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DemonStrate wrote:
Derakon wrote:
I'm sorry, but I just can't read "Guess what guys I did" the way I'm pretty certain it was intended.
Looking forward to an encode, though. Always good to see a new movie from you!
How did everyone else not burst out laughing when they read that first line! Dyslexic much? It reads, "Guess what guys I did while I was stuck in Rockman 2 and had too much free time!"
Firstly, is that supposed to be a question? Whats with the exclamation point? Is is supposed to be, "Guess what I did guys while I was stuck in Rockman 2 and had too much free time?" I guess that is how someone would speak. Or, could it be him declaring, "Guess which guys I had sex with while my piece was stuck inside of Rockman 2's body and just had so much free time!!!!" Thats saying it in the most in offensive way possible; I hope. Anyway, I'll check out the run later.
Hahaha... well well *laughts* that's just a pure mistake I didn't notice that. Well I think it is OK to leave that sentence there to make other readers and watchers to laught even more. In the end that sentence wasn't intended or even planned to be like that!
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Sorry for commenting this late! I though I didn't watch this run but I've already seen it before you even submitted or a bit after your submission. This run gives some nostalgia also I see that you've putted something into optimizing, nice zippings!
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finalfighter wrote:
The place that can be used .
There is a boss who doesn't have the reset framecounter .
CossackStage3:Cockroach Twins(adjusts it by start or jump)
WilyStage3:Wily Machine 4 The Second(adjusts it by destruction timing of The First)
As I thought. Thanks for giving such a good information for us. This is going to be really interesting :)
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finalfighter wrote:
Because framecounter is reset when the boss lands, it is impossible though I examined.
Indeed that's why I wasn't able to make things like I wanted to. At least it seems that it is better to aim for a fastest time when entering the doors in MM4.
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Aglar wrote:
One thing was a bit unclear to me though, you say that you sometimes "avoid" subpixels to save time. Do you mean you don't care about them, or set them to 0, or does some other magical maneuver?
Or actually I changed them to the a bit smaller, even more smaller, minimal, or minimalistic states, when your subpixels are way too high it may ruin your playing somewhere around the stage example you get lag when you stop at the edge and try to jump or in the middle of sliding. Sometimes I'm just sliding all the time to get good positions to not to get lag in the edges and such but sometimes they just can't be avoided because the game's mechanisms.
In fact it is "magical maneuver" you were talking about. You need to correct your positions to get magical things to appear and happen.
Also when you land on the edges it is good to test almost everything you got because you may get one pixel there. That's not it thought you need to go even more deeper with the game and to test what's the best way in the end.
In the end this game is like a big puzzle and haves troubled engine you can't know what happens next before you test different combinations with your values and movements.
Also it seems that there are some kind of rules when you slide and there is enemies in front of you, if you manage to slide properly theres only exact match of lag and it is minimal as possible.
Of course boss' rooms also does have frame rules and such as hitting the boss frame or two faster, sometimes even more faster. That's why I am making movements or frame-two losing before entering the room. Also I aimed for a perfect manipulation in boss fights (example I had 1 manipulation frame less in the Blizzardman fight than in the previous movie) I lost some time for a clean output and for manipulation like I did in the Windman stage and had perfect manipulation as possible I could to find out.
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Sir VG wrote:
You left some Blizzard, Wind, and Tomahawk power left, you know. :-p
Of course because its a big pain to waste them ;) heh-heh. But well consumning all of the weapons was one of the ideas I had in my mind but later on I noticed that it wouldn't be possible to perform so I left them as they are now.
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Since my playing with scrollings haven't done any progress FinalFighter decided to make a Japanese help thread to gather people and their knowledge of the game etc. and BasicBot. I've spent countless time to try that trick out even FinalFighter have tried it without succeeding yet. We're not playing together but he wants to support my project.
But still we do know what should to occur there but it just won't happend because the music code turns normal after one frame. It seems it is good to get 2xCrabs and 3xitem1s into same Y register value so the glitch should most likely occur with or without scrolling.
This site is in Japanese if you are interested to see what happens there :
Rockman 2 TAS Help
I divided a movie for that site so the other players can use it and I can simply copypaste it if there is a possibility for scrolling. You can find my Bubbleman's downscrolling from there.
This is done because my movie is in a critical state and it is almost impossible for one person to handle.
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Silent_Slayers wrote:
Well in that case, what happens in bubbleman with that boss glitch where you fall down and appear in the mid boss room?
Same thing with the... uh... what stage was that... crashman.
Also, i'm quite confused about the item 1 above the screen and you randomly teleport above the next screen. Wouldn't you be able to do that earlier in crashman?
Sorry for all the questions. :S
Oh, and why do you have to use the flashmans freeze "weapon" after the zip in quickman?
There is no point to do it in earlier in the crashman stage even it would be possible. Check the page 36 of this thread and read Bisqwit's long post it should to explain why screenscrollings occurs :]
In the quickman I would die without using flashman's weapon there because after a zip I'm in a different room and there is no possiblity to avoid those lasers so thats the reason. Thanks for the questions.
EDIT1: Cool avatar Silent_Slayers!
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Silent_Slayers wrote:
I noticed in airman stage that you can walk left to scroll the screen at the beginning to the left and "destroy" one of the "horns/drills" things on that devils head thingy...
Would this save time because you wouldn't have to jump (jumping is slower than running)?
Sorry if this is old. :P
Turning to left causes you to lose even more time there, in the airdevil part its really useful because you don't have to worry about jumping over them :)
Its okay to ask something like that and I gladly answer for anything.
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I really agree that Mega Man 1 itself deservers a star over my previous Mega Man 2 run. Even Mega Man 2 is a classic itself but the movie is not so good and it lacks new strategies, glitches and such and Mega Man 1 run is technically really interesting and also gives the feeling how much games can be really glitched out. I would bet that many of the visitors will be surprised by that :)
Also thanks for Baxter for reminding me about this thread.
