There is arbitrary and then there aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaarbitrary.
14 (or probably more) specific conditions that have to be met to satisfy a goal is aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaarbitrary.
My issue with it is more that it doesn't include things which i think should be included, such as maps, compasses, and boss keys.
Well we could include dungeon start menus. There those things would be included, although I really don't think they should be. But I'm flexible on that matter.
The main problem I see with this is that that would also include the dungeon map screen and maxing out the dungeon map would be stupid...
I guess we could just not include map screens in the definition and ban skulltulla duplication outright. But this is getting pretty arbitrary again.
Also, i do not think it is appropriate to ban any tricks outright. If we do not want something to be used, it makes more sense to define the goal in a way that would preclude using them. If that can't be done, then there's probably no good reason they shouldn't be allowed.
Arbitrary goals are against tasvideos rules and I for one think that is actually one of the good rules. You can't have your cake and eat it too.
"Oh I would like to use this glitch for this, this and that, but don't you use it for that!" You can't just pick and chose when and for what to use a glitch. Either ban it or allow it.
MST bans RBA. It doesn't just ban RBA to get the Stones or Medallions and for good reason.
Again if you get into: You must collect stuff so it disappears from the world, you are opening a big can of worms, because then you have to collect EVERYTHING that permanently disappears from the world. Otherwise it won't be 100%, if things permanently disappearing form the world is your definition of X%.
EEssentia wrote:
Unless we want to ban RBA, we should, because otherwise the runner can just duplicate everything.
But that would defeat the entire purpose and bring us back to the "super-RBA" example! You say you want to avoid those cans of worms, but if you bring that example in, then why not duplicate all 36 heart pieces? RBA the upgrades? heck, why not RBA all possible obtainable items and duplicate all 100 skulltullas? If we allow heart duplication to skip Epona, all those questions arise. In fact, I think the idea of attempting to "skip Epona" is exactly what goes against the spirit of a 100% run in the first place!
- There is no Super-RBA, so can we please just drop it? It's a straw man argument and I won't indulge it.
-You can not RBA all the upgrade nor any items, except 1-2 bottles, because AGAIN there is no Super-RBA and there never will be.
- If you don't ban item duplication, heart pieces can ofcourse be duplicated. If you ban it, they can't.
- Skulltullas can never be duplicated, since markers show up on the map, for areas where you have collected all of them. Since the map is part of the inventory and needs to be maxed out skulltulla duplication is out of the question.
- We wouldn't allow heart piece duplication to try and skip Epona. How many straw men would you like to build here? We would allow heart piece duplication, because it is a glitch in the game that can get you a 100%-menu faster. But again, it can be banned.
RachelB wrote:
If you want, we can just provide an exhaustive list of every single item that needs to be obtained, then define the goal as obtaining all of those, and ending the game.
I really don't see that being neccesary. Really what is ambigous about a maxed out menu?
I don't get the weird contortions made here.
For example MST is clearly defined as:
- get all medallions and stones
- beat all the trails
- RBA is banned
- end the game
Why is a clear definition that is good enough for MST not good enough for 100%?
Why do we have to resort to obtaining "all unique items", which is extremely vague, when we can just outright say what to get or max out and if needed ban some glitches, just like MST does?
I actually feel we are pretty close in our definitions RachelB. I would just like to get some clear wording down, that doesn't require an explaination to understand.
What constitutes maxxing out the start menu? Does that include things that are only in the start menu when you are in certain areas (such as a dungeon)?
If you want to nitpick, your definition isn't clear either.
I don't want to nitpick, I want a clear definition and the one you suggested still needs a lot of explaining. Too much explaining.
I think it should be clear what was meant with the start menu. You are not going to run into every dungeon to check the specific start menus there.
But in the interest of clarity:
- max out the start menu, you get when pressing start in Hyrule Field, without any corrupted items
( - RBA and item duplication are banned)
- end the game
EEssentia wrote:
Unique: Something of which there exists only one of. Therefore, rupees and keys are not unique. So we can count those out.
I would define an item as something that shows up on the item subscreen. Epona and the cow does not, therefore they are not items.
So according to that definition heart pieces are not unique... or rupee chests are also unique. At least the ones with 200r inside, because they only appear in a few locations and once you opened them, they are gone. Same goes for small keys.
What is a unique item?
Are epona and the cow unique items? Well they only exist once, so they must be. They are persistant.
Are rupees in chests unique items? Well the chests stay empty, so they must be. They are persistant if you never use them.
Are small keys in dungeons unique items? Well the chests stay empty, so they must be. They are persistant if you never use them.
Also what does "obtain" mean? How did you not obtain a song when you RBA it into your inventory? You didn't have it before, now you have, ergo you obtained it.
Sorry but this is just the same as before, where you need 14 different sub-rules to clearly define what is meant.
- Max out the start menu without any corrupted items
( - RBA and item duplication are banned)
- end the game
That is a clear definition.
Yeah, you can totally restrict what glitches are allowed in a certain category. We already do it with MST.
The problem is that many people here want to have their cake and eat it too and it creates a convoluted mess.
I would like to see bombchu insanity as much as anybody, but not at the cost of making a totally messy, convoluted, arbitrary category.
Either allow RBA or don't allow it. I am for allowing it, but I wouldn't be very sad if we disallowed it.
- Max out the menu by legally obtaining all items without any corrupted items in there.
I still disagree with that one. Either you can write stuff to your menu or you can't. If you don't want it, ban the glitch that allows it. No weird arbitrary middle ground please.
But still, what does max out the menu mean? Only the stuff you can see at the end of the game (dungeons have their sub-menu, after all), and does that include the map?
Dungeon stuff shouldn't be included. It can only be seen in that particular dungeon. Thus it's obviously not important to the whole games state.
Again, if we go down that path we would have to open all the chests in dungeons and all that crap. That is a rabbit hole we don't want to go down, imo.
What is the fun in seeing the runner duplicate all possible heart pieces? That should be reason enough not to allow duplication.
Why do we have 100% in the first place if all it does is mimick the any% by just duplicating whatever stuff you need?
How is that in any way duplicating any%? It's still a totally different beast. Like I said before, RBAing medallions probably wouldn't be worth it.
So it would be closer to MST, but even compared to that you have to do a lot more. Again, you still have to get all the skulltullas.
I'm open to banning certain glitches for this category. Like heart piece duplication and RBA. Afterall, we did ban RBA for MST already.
Still the basic definition of the category should stay simple:
- max out the menu without any corrupted items in there
- end the game
Ofcourse banning RBA would completely remove the extremely fun bombchu insanity, but I don't see any other way, without getting totally arbitrary.
If you allow RBA you can use it to write shit to your inventory. If you don't want that, disallow it completely. Clear defintions people, that is all I'm asking here.
The problem is MrGrunz's definition, that many people here seem to like, has more than 14 mostly arbitrary stipulations. They are randomly picked and don't make much sense, especially if you look at it with fresh eyes and unburden yourself of all the history of this game, which is what Grunz said to do a few pages ago.
14 stipulations is not a definition anymore, it's a convoluted mess. Sorry Grunz...
The definition I propose has exactly two stipulations and they are really clear cut:
- max out the menu without any corrupted items in there
- end the game
Even if we allow heart piece duplication, that raises the question, when is that considered maxed? Because i might have to argue that it's not until just before heart count overflows. If you really want to go that route, i guess i'd be ok with that...
That is an interesting question. I would say it would be the max you can get in a normal playthrough, but I would be open to duplicate them into oblivion.
Many people here say "oh this should be in it and that should be in it, but that shouldn't". Again, if we go outside of maxing out the menu, we have a problem that things get completely arbitrary.
We have to remove cutscene triggers, but don't have to plant all the magic beans. Why?
We have to collect all the heart pieces legit, but not all the chests around. Why?
Maxing out the menu is a good, clear cut definition. I also think that we should be able to use RBA for it, but I guess that could be up for debate. Why heart piece duplication shouldn't be allowed is beyond me, though. Because at that point we are just arbitrarily picking and chosing what has to be removed from the game world.
Another thing i think should be considered is upgrade items which are later overwritten, such as goron bracelet, silver scale, etc. Real time runners skip these, but i'm not sure if that is really right. Of course this raises the question of whether we can sequence break the trading quest, or if we need to get each item at some point. Which i don't really want to require... I'm not sure what i think about this.
This can of worms is exactly why 100% should just be a maxed out menu.
MrGrunz wrote:
Let's try it a different way:
We travel back in time to the year 2005, when there were barely any glitches for this game. Now we should try find an appropriate way to define 100% on this base and nothing else. Even without paying attention to the entertainment value, simply find a way that makes sense in every way.
After this has been successfully done, have a look at all glitches again and try to see if it really makes sense to ban any of them, but for this you first need a perfect definition, which has to be based on more or less glitchless terms. The only reason we have to do this discussion right now is because nobody did a TAS of it back then and set the basic rules.
We have that definition. We had it for years. It's a maxed out menu. I don't see why TAS would have to do it differently.
andypanther wrote:
Epona can't be skipped, you need her for a heart piece and a quiver upgrade.
If we allow RBA and heart piece duplication, which I think we should, Epona could be skipped.
MrGrunz wrote:
Epona has to be obtained or else Epona's Song has no effect when you play it. It clearly changes what you've obtained and what you haven't.
Epona's can still produce milk.
MrGrunz wrote:
7) All Songs have to be learned the normal way during your speed run. In theory you could RBA Songs to save time, but you'd still have to learn them at some point in the game. This makes sense, because a Cutscene Trigger is gone after watching the cutscene.
Doesn't make any sense to me. We do not care what happens in the game with other things. For example magic beans. If you have to remove cutscene triggers, you have to plant all the beans to get 100%.
Again, it opens a whole can of worm if we require anything outside of the menu.
But we aren't. :D
Forcing all the items to be collected by conventional means doesn't make sense.
If you want to ban a glitch for this category, fine. But don't micromanage how the full inventory is obtained.
Also like I said, RBA wouldn't be used much for the inventory. "Super-RBA" is just a crazy hypothetical, that will never happen. If it does, we can still ban it.
Btw. do you need the Claim Check at the end of the game or is the Biggoron Sword enough?
I would say yes, because that particular quest isn't complete until the adult trade item is the claim check. You can't get BGS without it, anyway.
But you can overwrite the claim check after you have gotten the BGS and that would probably cut about 15 minutes off the run.
But alas, it's not allowed in 100%.
andypanther wrote:
The point of a 100% is to show of everything the game has to offer: Visiting all the different locations within an optimized route, using your items in creative ways. Many of those things aren't seen in other categories (the Ice Cavern is a good example).
By getting the required items into your inventory without legitimately obtaining them, this whole idea becomes meaningless.
If you absolutely have to use RBA, then at least make it required to still get every item legitimately. Either way, I'm still against it.
Correction: That is what you would like to see from a 100% run, but that is not the point of it. The point is to get 100%.
Also I think you all are REALLY overestimating what RBA can do. You can't write any of the actual items into the inventory, most of the upgrades you would have to get legit, because RBA writes crap into the slots and Medallions are probably gotten faster the legit way anyway.
Either allow RBA or don't allow it. A middle thing is just stupid.
Actually I was against RBA in 100%, but after reading here and thinking about it I think it should be allowed.
1. We already have a category that bans RBA to show off gameplay. It's called MST.
2. The definition of 100% is to max out the inventory. What does it matter where the inventory comes from?
100% is originally from the metroid games. There the game displays the percent you have gotten at the end. Now what difference would it make if that number being displayed was gotten by actually collecting the items or by glitching that number in? It wouldn't make one iota of a difference. It would still be the same number being displayed.
It's the same here. The menu displays the same items. it doesn't matter how you got them.
3. Even with RBA there is still going to be quite a bit of gameplay left. I'm not even sure if it would be faster to RBA the medallions, since you have to go into every dungeon anyway, there are really fast boss key skips and setting up to get the light medallion back takes forever.
You also burn the Fire Temple warp, that could be really usefull to end the game quickly.
The question is if dungeon menus should count. I think they shouldn't, since you would have to every dungeon to find them.
I disagree. Isn't that the point of a 100% tas? You have to collect all medallions to reach the final stage and besides, doesn't all dungeons have something to collect? Since you are going to collect items in dungeons, it makes more sense to beat each dungeon's boss. Keys I don't have any strong opinion of.
Medallions are not dungeon items. They show up in the normal menu.
EEssentia wrote:
Slowking wrote:
I think that was the point. ;)
Limiting it to the menu is a good idea. The question is if dungeon menus should count. I think they shouldn't, since you would have to every dungeon to find them.
But then again, I don't think it would be tedious to collect all the dungeon items. I think it would add to the value of the run.
...Or would it?
I don't really see it... I don't think it would make much of a difference. After all you have to collect all the skulltullas in the dungeon anyway, so you have to go through it either way...
Maybe everything that stays gone when you get it should be collected? Every single little treasure chest. Oh and the records for the minigames must of course be maxed out, too.
That would be extremely tedious...
I think that was the point. ;)
Limiting it to the menu is a good idea. The question is if dungeon menus should count. I think they shouldn't, since you would have to every dungeon to find them.
How much would RBA even allow you to skip anyway? You can't skip dungeons with it, as you'd lose light medallion. Without looking into it to much, i'd guess infinite bombchus would be the biggest time saver from rba...
You can get the light medallion back with FWWW. See here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o0LqjrkpZ1A
Edit: Ah damn too late. Well at least I linked a video XD
Just do play devils advocate: The definition of OoT 100% is to get everything in the main inventory and status screen. That was always the reason given, why dungeon items like the compass, map and BK don't have to be collected.
That means by it's very definition it doesn't matter what you actually collected, but what the menu shows. Everything else are artificial restrictions. We can ofcourse set these restrictions, but let's not pretend that they are in any way natural to the category.
I don't think there is a better N64 emulator thanPJ64... even that one could be better, but it's acceptable.
I hope somebody can persuade the copyright holders to let RachelB use it. We really need something better than mupen. It's embarrassing that GC/Wii TASing is now better than N64 TASing.
Alternatively: I have heard good things about 1964 and that one is open source: http://code.google.com/p/emu-1964/
Can't be worse than mupen, can it?
Mitjitsu wrote:
How long is a 100% TAS likely to be? Just getting it off the ground due to route planning problems would be a feat in itself. Its likely to be a 2+ year project if you want it done to the standards of the current any%. I will admit if I had the money I would pay someone to work on it full time for a year.
I would project about 5 years, with the current mupen.
One thing I forgot: With MM savestates in mupen are really unrelyable. That means you have to play back from the start ... all ... the ... time.
The longer the TAS gets, the longer it takes to play back. It was horrible with the any% run. Just imagine how it would be with a 4 hour 100% TAS...
