we can get 99 rupees from ECT and 99 rupees from terminia on the first cycle without loosing any time.
SL figured out that 2 trips through termina field are actually faster than getting the chest in the Inn (due to transition times), but other than that, yeah we will get 2x 99r in the first cycle anyway.
the 2 rupees from NCT would be wasted time. the time it costs to load the new areas and to speak to the bank guy again takes much too much time for just 2 rupees. there are tons of ways to get 2 rupees somewhere over the run without loosing any time ;)
But we have to get them in the first cycle in order to get the Adault wallet...
oh wait, I remember that problem, we need the wallet upgrade in order to be able to buy bomb bag and 20 bombchus in one trip, so the 2 rupees are important!
Yeah otherwise we would have to get money from the bank twice, which also costs time. But not having the adault wallet would also make problems in other ereas of the game. For example we couldn't play 2 Zora games after another since the wallet would be full.
And we have to get the adault wallet at some point, so we have to make that desposit anyway...
if I remeber right, petrie said once, that if we get another 99 rupees from terminia, the clock tower will have opened already until we arrive there, what would cost some time and there are better ways to get 99 rupees for sure.
ECT is definately out of the door. it's a really slow way to get rupees
Well my suggestion was probably motivated in having to redo as little as possible in the first cycle, as SL is going crazy as it and I can totaly understand why.
But I postet the best way to get those 2r in my post above...
Yeah that's what I was suggesting. Since we are doing the mega hover a lot we'll have to have a lot more bombs than before and I don't think we can fill that need with bomb-drops on the way.
A second Zora game just costs 7 seconds, so I really don't see why it wasn't used in previous runs... It's by far the fastet way to make money.
Btw. ofcourse should we do it this way getting the 2r before first getting to CT would still be the fastest by far, but I guess that would take to much redoing...
contrary to whhat I said in my post above the second fastest way would probably be getting one from a chest in ECT after or before hearing grandmas story and one from the vase in the shop the scarecrow is in. This way you only have to go out of your way slightly and no screen transitions are wasted...
So if this route really proves to be the fastest here is the fastest way to do the first cycle (with a lot of redoing ^^" ):
- get 2r before getting to CT (right after the horror kid tranformes you)
- hear grandmas storys twice and dance with the scarecorw.
- deposit 2r
- do two runs through Termina field, get fairy in ECT on the way and deposit the 198r (200r) and get adault wallet for it.
- go from WCT to NCT the normal way and get magic
- get into the tower, get OoT and SoT and timetravel...
Well if we play the Zora game 4 times (and yeah we already discussed the problem that it only works at day a few pages back) we have more than enough money.
I'm pretty sure that's the fastest way to get money. A game lasts roughly 7 seconds, so 4 games are about 30 seconds. Plus the little detour you have to go it's about 1 minute for 360r. Even Light Arrows are slower.
The thing that it has to be day: Well we have to play the song of double time a few times. But since we come from the ranch (which is over at 5:15) before we do 2nd gerudo fortress and the 2x pinnacle rock it will be day anyway. ^^
The question in the end is if we get really by with the amount of explosives that MrGrunz said. If so I guess a few minor route changes are in order and SL is going to hate me for it, since it means changing up the first cycle again. ^^"
(I won't list the explosives needed or when to buy them, since that's not my expertise, just the general route and what the rupees amount to)
Cycle 1
Night of the last day:
- get Fairy in ECT
- do to full trips through Termina Field and deposit money (198r)
- go the normal way from ECT to NCT
- Get 2r from the bushes in NCT (200r)
- Get magic
- deposit 2r
- get OoT and play SoT
Cycle 2
- get into north bay and hit the owl
- play Zora bottle game 2x (380r)
- play Song of double time
- FFWW to Ikana
- Hit owl and swim to witches
- Get witches bottle
- Make your way to the Woodfall (swimming in shallow water should save time), on the way get SoA and SoS
- Hit owl and do woodfall1
- do ranch and get bottle
- get 4 eggs and the hookshot from the gerudo fortress
- get 3 eggs from pinnacle rock
- get New wave bossanova
- go to GBT and beat it. on the way there play the Zora game 2x (560r)
- FFWW from woodfall to Snowhead
- get in and beat Snowhead
- climb and beat stone tower
- do woodfall 2
Now if MrGrunz is right that we only have to refill 4 times we need 550r to complete the game. That means we even have 10r to spare at the end...
Afaik we get only 210r in the first cycle and it's probably faster to just get 360r from the Zora game than constantly going out of your way to get bomb drops...
A bomb drop only gives you 5b, so you won't have enough on your way in a lot of cases anyway.
btw. you forgot the bombbag that costs 50r.
Hmm but it is a completely different model. So either it is somewhere on that map or it's not. :D
But ofcourse that doesn't ahve anything to do with the loading zone.
Btw. I've thought about the route you listed above and I would change it up.
After the ranch I would do the whole pirates fortress and GBT.
The thing is we get 180r from the Zora bottle game. Since we do this twice that's 360r. Combined with the 210r from the first cycle that's probably more than we'll need. (if we really only need to refill 4 times it will cost us only 550r even if we refill bombs and not just Chus)
But if you do GBT as your last temple this money deosn't help you anymore. Besides you might even save a song of soaring if you do the temple directly after collecting the eggs...
Hmm if everything is already on the maps somewhere shouldn't the Turtle with it's loading zone be on there somewhere? That thing would be far more usefull than woodfall...
To get to woodfall you have to get to the Deku palace anyway. Those 2 minutes getting the song are probably allways faster than gltiching in the temple somehow. That goes twice if you split woodfall.
Btw. I saw the temple under there myself, but I cant see it on tility of time. So the tool is less usefull than I thought...
What we need now is a improved woodfall boss key skip. 24 explosives is a lot and this would force us to buy extra bombchus and get more ruppes, so this boss key skip isn't really worth.
the boss key skip method with clipping OoB with the mini boss I mentioned a while back could be useful now.
Yeah but if we need the hookshot to get OOB there it won't be worth it. Then you can just get the Bosskey and go the normal way. Without the hookshot it might be worth it, since it probably makes not splitting woodfall viable...
MrGrunz wrote:
1. 20 bombchus for GB early, GB to Ikana Wron Warp, Deku Palace, wodfall Temple Part 1 and Ranch early
You don't need Chus at the Deku Palace. Petrie did it all with staircasing bombs.
Btw. might you be able to megaflip through the rock blocking the milk road? That could save 2-3 explosives, a little time and ofcourse look really cool. XD
2. 20 bombchus Pirate's Fortress Part 1, Wrong Warp to Snowhead and beat Snowhead
3. 20 bombchus for Climbing ST and beating it
4. 20 bombchus for Pirate's Fortress Part 2, GBT and Woodfall
Yeah those might work. Though you'll be pretty low on Chus in Snowhead. You might have to bomb and shoot the snowballs after all. :p
so we the any% category is nearly pushed to its limits now.
>.< Every time you say that something major is discovered. :D
While doing my Stone Tower Climbing TAS I noticed, that sideways mega flips reach the same distance as normal ones, so instead of hovering in a diagonal line, we simply use sideways mega flips. this can save some explosive at certain hovers.
with this I was finally able to do stone tower boss key skip with 9 explosives:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gPDtEjZ80ho&feature=channel_page
Yeah we get it, you are good. XD
Joking aside: Have you planed to break anything else or an idea what else could be broken?
Ncice one. But at the end of the GBT key skip Link falls straight down for quite some time. Are you sure you can't reduce the explosives a little by taking out a megaflip (and if needed replace it with a normal flip)?
Ah, yes, that...someone at SDA already beat you to the punch. You'll also notice I forgot to include actually getting the Great Fairy Sword after Stone Tower.
-If you get the Blast Mask, Sakon won't try to sell the Big Bomb Bag to the Curiosity shop on the night of the second day, meaning Kafei doesn't follow him back to his hideout, meaning you can't complete the Sun's Mask quest. Nintendo programmed that surprisingly well, and I haven't found a way around it.
Ah ok didn't know this. I guess I never tried kafeis quest in the same cycle as the kaboom mask.
-It's not that I can't get in, it's that I haven't the time. Unless you expect us to get to the ranch with enough time to do it before the aliens, there's no time afterwards, since I have to go get Kamaro's Mask. I need the Bremen Mask for it, so I can't do it on the first ranch trip, either.
Yeah doing it before was the idea. I think it should be doable...
-for the record, there is no last deed. The Scrub in Ikana pays you 200r for the Ocean Title Deed.
Oh. It's really been to much time since I did the whole trading. I could have sworn that there was a last deed. ^^"
Btw. I found a tiny mistake in the route. You have the all-night mask listed in cycle 4 but you'll actually have to get it at the end of cycle 3.
3 cycles is impossible. The Blast Mask, Madame Aroma's Bottle, and the Postman's Hat are entirely mutually exclusive. You can thank the Kafei/Anju quest for that.
I know about the Bottle and Postmans hat. You need the letter for both. But what has the Blast mask to do with kafeis quest?
-The bunny hood is generally inferior to supersliding and Goron rolling, and it takes up a C-button. I'd do it after protecting the ranch, but Kamaro's Mask is only available at night. For the record, the Bunny hood moves at half the speed of Goron Rolling/Supersliding.
Yeah I just thought it might be good to have it for short distances where we can't use either of these two. And you would only need about 4 explosives to get in there when it's not open...
-Stone Tower cannot come before Snowhead. Fire Arrows are needed for the stray fairies. Admittedly, Stone Tower could be put earlier in the run, but I'd like to have the Gilded Sword by then, and we need something to do to pass the time on cycle 4 anyways.
Ah ok didn't know that you need fire arrows.
-yeah, the exceedingly long trading cutscenes mean hovering is the best option. Besides, I don't have any paper to spare from the Kafei/Anju quest, so I'm stuck using Title deeds.
I just meant when you are through with the whole trading sequenz you don't have any use for the last deed anymore and you could use that to get the toilet HP. But if it takes to long hovering is ofcourse the better idea.
Btw. just fyi in the bombers secret passage are some fish swimming around that could be used for the HP. Since we are a lot in ECT and it's right there...
Hmm my first question about the 100% route is couldn't you do it in 3 cycles. Not that I would want to see a 3 cycle route at any cost, but I've just seen the SDA 100% run and there was a lot of time forewarding in the last two cycles and I feel that it will automatically get tighter if you were to do it in 3 cycles total. In a TAS it should be possible...
Btw. are you doing all this while time is slowed down or in real time?
A few other things:
- Why don't you wrong warp glitch to the lens of truth cave? It seems much faster than going there the normal way. If it was good enough for any%, it should be more than good enough for 100%.
- You get the bunny ears pretty late. Couldn't those help moving faster? You are at the farm at the night of the first day anyway. Now the game where you get them is closed at the time, but you can hover in there and it shouldn't even take that much explosives...
- Since you are going to need a LOT of money in a 100% it might be a good idea to do Stone Tower as your first temple. Once you have the light arrows you can shoot stuff for money on your way. Since you are probably going to use the giants mask for the twinmold battle it shouldn't be that big of a problem.
- If you get the HP from the toilet hand at the end of the trade cycle you don't have to get the moon tear twice. Might save some time. (oh unless you are not doing the trading and hover to the heart pieces...)
Other than this I can't see anything at the moment.
Just fyi in the bombers secret passage are some fish swimming around that could be used for the HP...
Yeah I didn't express mayself very well.
I just menat if we need explosives somewhere before we have momentarely forgotten or getting up to the temple from the fountain takes more explosives as getting up there from the entrance.
I meant that the important part is that we have enough explosives for the temple and how much exactly we have to spare we'll know for sure when we are there. Though we know it pretty uch now there is allways a little bit of uncertainty...
Btw. nice climbing the stone tower. ^^
Well it's really not worth speculating at this point. The snowballs are pretty much at the end of the temple which means at the point we get there, we'll know how many chus we have left. But point taken. :D
Btw. did you allready try getting up snowhead from the fairy fountain or how do you know that it takes 3 explosives?
Sorry I didn't know that you didn't count that first gap.
MrGrunz wrote:
ok, it works
ESS off Mega Flip in MM:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5boAiDnN9O8
If my eyes are right, it seems to be slower than a ESS off a Superslide
maybe I did something wrong :/
Looks about the same speed for me. That ISS works out of a megaflip in MM is certainly a nice information.
That is definatly going to be usefull in the fairy fountains, the hover in woodfall and maybe the second hover in snowhead and the hover into great bay. ^^
Btw. I have a suggestion for destroying the snowballs in snowhead, since we won't have the Goron Mask and probably no Chus to spare. Might be that somebody else has allready thought about it, like most of my ideas, but oh well:
The first snowball gets destroyed by the hover which leaves 3. Now place a bomb in front of the next ball and get out your fire arrows and aim. The moment the bomb explodes shoot the arrow. The bomb will take out the next 2 snowballs and the arrow the last one and you have a free path. ^^
Ofcourse it's a little longer than it would be with chus, but it's the fastest way I can think about...
petrie, did you take into consideration how much slower it is to do only superflips over a gap, instead of one superflip and the rest as bombchu hovers? :/
Yes, of course. You lose ~8 bomb timers this way, which is ~30s, while a trip to the bomb shop is ~50s at least. Plus, you don't have to hit the owl statue, and hovering with chus still takes a small amount of time. Really, I'm certain it works out in favor of not refilling.
I allready did some complicated math in my post above and everybody is ignoring it. :D Bottom line: Since 3 normal hovers take 3 seconds and a megahover takes 5, you only lose 2 seconds on every megahover, which is really not that much when you compare it to a trip to the bomb shop.
petrie911 wrote:
I've done both Snowhead hovers, the hover in GBT (not the boss key skip; the short one), and the hover in Woodfall (again, the short one).
All of them take 3 explosives (2 bombs/1 chu) minimum, except the second Snowhead hover which takes an extra.
For the first one in snowhead could you maybe get by with two megaflips, going like this: http://home.arcor.de/slowking/tas/snowheadflip.jpg ?
Since we are doing it directly after the ffww and the song skip we'll need to save every chu we can and two flips there would only need two bombs. (there are at least 2 bomb drops in the temple, one on the route the other a little out of the way, so those shouldn't be a big problem).
MrGrunz wrote:
This one is extremely cool. I tried to get oob there but couldn't get it to work. Respekt!
Now if you could get oob in the booskey room in woodfall without the hookshot... ;)
evilchen wrote:
just a little question where do all these tricks come from?
are you testing them seperatly or is it from a tas you are doing?
A lot are known from previous runs, but a lot are found right now through testing. For example the megaflip found by petrie or the bosskey skips found by MrGrunz are all brand new.
I still think a low% OoT run is rather pointless. A RBA run is effectively a low% run and to count every trade item as a percentage is just stupid and seems to be only implemented so that RBA runs don't count.
You only have one at a time. All the items you had before are lost once you trade them in. So every percentage they might have been is lost with them. What ccounts is only the end of the run, not something in between.
that seems to be a good and cheap recorder and I think of buying it, but there's one problem:
I'm from south germany, so in the region, where I live, there is only aldi-south and not aldi-north, so will I also be able to buy that recorder in a aldi-south store?
No sadly Aldi Süd doesn't have it. So unless you live near a Bundesland that has Aldi Nord your screwed. :( Sorry I didn't think about that there are two Aldi branches. I only get the Newsletter for Nord.
petrie911 wrote:
Slowking wrote:
petrie911 wrote:
Hover across gap: 4 bomb, 3 chu
Couldn't you lessen the hover-time and explosives spent by using the hookshot while still standing in mid-air?
I wish. The hookshot does not work while standing in midair. Try it yourself.
I'm not able to do the hover tricks yet. maybe I'll get it some day.
Are you unable to shoot the hookshot in the air or just unable to aim? If you are just unable to aim you could probably still use it at the second hover...
Swordless Link wrote:
petrie, did you take into consideration how much slower it is to do only superflips over a gap, instead of one superflip and the rest as bombchu hovers? :/
Well a megaflip takes about 5 seconds. A normal flip takes about 1 second. Since a megaflip spans 3 times the distance of a normal flip you loose 2 seconds on every megaflip.
So not counting the first megaflip (you'll do this one anyhow, since you need a bomb in the beginning) you loose 12 seconds on the first two hovers combined and 4 seconds on the last hover, up to stone tower.
That makes a total of 16 seconds lost.
I think at the bosskey skip it could be about 20 seconds lost.
So that makes a total of 36 seconds lost. Let's round up to 40 to have a uncertainty-buffer.
I'm pretty sure that it's faster than a trip to the bomb shop. The two songs of soaring alone would cost you more time and then you would still have to get rupes, walk to the bombshop and buy the bombs.
Couldn't you lessen the hover-time and explosives spent by using the hookshot while still standing in mid-air?
Anyhow one less trip to the bombshop is allways a nice thing and it also means less rupes, that also saves some time.
@MrGrunz
I've seen you speak german in a lot of your youtube comments. Are you from germany? If so I remember that you considered buying a recorder to capture a speedrun and just fyi Aldi has HDD-recorders next week: http://www.aldi-nord.de/OFFER_D_MO/OFFER_13/OFF03.SHTML
Btw. if you could get oob in the bosskey room it should be a really short hover. Granted you could just get the key. But this way you could be able to skip the battle for the key (which will be longer since we don't hace the goron mask), don't have to go back and you don't need the fire arrows...
We need the Hookshot to skip the miniboss.
Well the idea was to not skip him, but get through the wall in his room. But as MrGrunz said one would need the hookshot for that (doesn't it work with the bow?), so it's out of the window...
Also are the fire arrows going to get used against twinmold? If not it might be a good idea to do Stone Tower immediately after getting the hookshot. Then, if we discover that we need more money, we could just shoot stuff with Light Arrows...
Yes they are. And I don't see any advantage to doing Stone Tower immediately after getting the Hookshot.
Well if we wouldn't use the Fire Arrows on Twinmold it wouldn't matter when we did Stone Tower and in that case it would have been a good idea to do it right away to get Light Arrows. Then if we would need extra money we could just shoot something for 50r...
But since we do, that's out of the window, too. :D
