I have thought about the run some more.
If I counted correctly we have 6 Chus left when we get to woodfall. Would that be enough to do the bosskey skip with the megahover? If so would it be worth the longer cutscene?
Btw. if you could get oob in the bosskey room it should be a really short hover. Granted you could just get the key. But this way you could be able to skip the battle for the key (which will be longer since we don't hace the goron mask), don't have to go back and you don't need the fire arrows...
Also are the fire arrows going to get used against twinmold? If not it might be a good idea to do Stone Tower immediately after getting the hookshot. Then, if we discover that we need more money, we could just shoot stuff with Light Arrows...
oh, and with my new ultimate GBT trick, skipping the zora mask would save about 10-15 minutes now ;)
it would skip learning the song, playing the song, collecting the eggs, getting any bottle, bringing the zora guy out of the water, playing SoH and the zora mask cutscence.
That's the part I don't understand / think is BS. How would skipping the Zora mask help you skip the eggs/song/etc? If you skip the Zora mask, you just skip the mask, nothing else.
If you could skip, the song and thereby the eggs, that would be great, but it would probably be faster to get the Zora mask anyway, since the cutscene really isn't that long and it helps in a lot of places... but in the end I said all of this in my last post. Didn't you read it? XD
MrGrunz wrote:
Extremely cool. If I see it correctly this could also be used with the bosskey skips in STT and GBT, right? Maybe we don't have to go back in STT after all...
The best thing about it is, that you only used 2 Chus. Normal bombs are quickly refilled on every bush. great! ^^
Could you test one more thing? In OoT SL got into an Infinite Super Slide directly from a Mega flip, as seen here. Could you test if it also works in MM? That should save some time in a few instances. For example: After the gap skipping you just did, you could slide directly in the tower or after the fairy fountain wrong warp glitch (from now on I'll just call it "ffww", far to long otherwise :D ) you could slide directly out of the fountain.
Edit:
Is there any way one can check if there are multiple rooms on a map? Or a programm you can few maps with? It's just that I just noticed, that the observatory is open at the top and I was thinking maybe they put it on one map with a few of the gerudo rooms or something.
Edit:
Oh not even just open at the top. You can walk through the window on the side. :D Well probably nothing else on that map anyway...
As long as you have the ISG on, a bomb hitting your shield will cause you to hover. This, unforunately, prevents us from doing most of the recoil stuff in midair. OoT is lucky; they can still megaflip out of hover.
That is really a shame. MM would need it so much more than OoT.
And I guess if you turn ISG off in midair, you fall down...
But I should really look into that superflip thing SL did again. Maybe it's just a trick of the eye, but it seems to be going higher/farther than a regular recoil flip. Will test later.
It is pretty far... Maybe that one works in midair. Well one can dream. :D
we have every major sequence break for MM discovered apart from zora mask skip
Ok I've heard that one a lot and I'm still not getting why it would save time. I mean even if you could skip playing the song to get into the water temple (which would be a huge time saver), it would probably still be faster to just get the Zora mask anyway, since it helps you out a lot (swimming, getting durther with less bombs etc.) and really doesn't take that long to get...
woodfall temple:
we have the quickest way over to the bow and a boss key skip.
all we could do, would be to find a better place for the boss key skip.
Though I'm not really sure if the bosskey skip is really that practical here. I mean it takes you a shitload of explosives to do it and it really isn't that much faster than just getting the key. Plus you have to have the money for the explosives and make an extra trip to the bomb shop...
MrGrunz wrote:
I've just had a little idea for an improvement of our current route!
Instead of getting those 10 bombs for the boss key skip from the mirror room, we get them from the pre-gomess room. this is a bit slower, but then we can still get 100 ruppies by shooting those 2 skull things with light arrows ;)
What do you think?
Didn't you say that with your new hover-route we wouldn't need to go back to get additional explosives?
The other question ofcourse is when the stone tower will be done. If it's done last we really don't need more money.
Is there a concrete plan which temple should be done when?
Btw. could the far-jump used in the beginning of this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fj-DNETgvBA or the superflip as shown here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x7uV-P34_yc be used in the air? f though it could drastically decrese the explosives needed to get to some loading zones. (I'm pretty sure it can't or somebody would have done it allready, but if you don't ask you can't get an answer. :D )
Dangerous words indeed. :D
But in this case I agree with MrGrunz, unless ofcourse something like RBA is discovered for MM. Considering how fast you can get the witches bottle and that you can bomb yourself into the clocktower, the second cycle wouldn't last more than 15 minutes.
I haven't finished the first cycle yet. I'm doing the second of three field trips. Since this is like the fifth f'ing time I'm doing it, I have next to no motivation.
Oh in this case I'm really sorry for bothering you. I was under the impression that it was allready done. Take your time. ^^
Hmm nice one. Always a good thing when you can save explosives.
I would really like to know how the first cycle went...
Btw. I ran the route up to the ranch again and this time I was there at 2:30. Granted I used some moon jumping, but my walking isn't really optimized, so I'm even more sure that it's doable until 3:30.
@SL
How are you going to get the 12r? Do you have the time for two and a half trips through termina field without being there when the cutscene starts? (remeber it's much longer there)
Edit:
@petrie
Uh those missing cutscenes will save quite some time. I hadn't thought about that, but now that mention it, yeah they were missing. ^^
Well there really isn't another choice I'm afraid.
The only other way would be if someone with exactly as much skill as SL were to test this part out and optimize it as if it was the real speedrun. So it's probably the best to just take the risk. The time you get to the ranch allways is a risk-factor, in any route.
Btw. do we have a final route at this point? It has been a long time ago since we had one. XD
Well at about 3:30 they are directly in front of the Barn. At 3:50 they are in and in the meantime they are half (they go through the walls) in and I don't exactly know if you can still shoot them. Sorry, I wasn't really clear about that. So I think 3:30 is the way to go, but it would be cool if you would try it out.
I think one should superslide to the right of the wooden crate, kill the Alien that is right of the barn, then take a step left and activate the Epona cutscene. this will bring you in front of the gate that keeps her in. If you now step a little bit to the right you should be in the perfect position to shoot the rest of them (most should go down with one arrow).
But in the end I really can't say where the song of double time should be played. It would have to be tested and since it is a long way from the zora game to the ranch it would take quite some time.
OK, so I tested it myself, and got to the rock in front of the ranch at 2:30 by playing the SoDT after hitting the owl in Ikana. However, I did the swamp fairly suboptimally (I didn't feel like optimizing it >_>), so we can take an hour of game time off that. Now, going from the Zora Pots game to the Ikana Owl definitely takes more than 1:00, so the first SoDT should probably go before the wrong warp glitch, but after the Zora Pot game. Where in that interval it should go, I don't know.
I would suspect either directly after the pot game (cutting it pretty close) or upon landing on the platform in front of the fairy fountain.
I guess you can say it will take you another half hour to get to the wooden crate (bomb hoovering in and then supersliding there) and if we guess that you also half an hour in the swamp that would put you there at 2:30 again.
But you really first have to be there at 3:30 (the Aliens enter the barn at ~3:50 so that should give you enough time). It gets a little complicated through the Epona cutscene, but 3:30 should still suffice.
Hmm the more I think about it, directly after the pot game is probably to early and it should be done directly after you land on the platform. Unless I've underestimated the optimizations you can make in the swamp.
@MrGrunz
The thing is even if you flew through there you couldn't have made it that fast. The only way is that you slowed down time or left something out...
I also considered, that you may have done it in the first cycle with, removing the mask through a cheat, but I believe time actually runs faster in the first one... so only those two remain.
I did a second run through and even with rabbit ears, not visiting the bomb shop and extensive moonjumping I don't get into bow-shooting-position (the wooden crate) until 4:30.
As far as I can see we might even have to play the song of double time later, rather than sooner...
@MrGrunz
I did a quick play through of the route up to the ranch (with fast forewarding time after the Zora game and without pinnacle rock) and was there at 6am. Now I know I'm not the fastest but I used moonjumps instead of bombs and believe that I made up some time I lost through walking. So unless I'm totally incompetent something doesn't ad up here.
Are you sure you didn't forget something on your play through?
@petrie
Could you play up to that point real quick (without optimizing)? That should give us a vague idea when we'll be at the ranch.
D'oh!
I just found the solution for our time-problem. It's so simpel!
We go to pinnacle rock two times anyway, right? Well there are only 3 eggs there, so the first time we go there, we only need one bottle and we allready got one pretty early in the game from the witches.
True we will praobably loose the time for one or two warpsongs, but this route should still be way faster (considering that getting the goron mask still takes some time) than the other.
And ok my memory isn't what it used to. Wait untill you are my age, young man. XD
Btw. are you going to upload your testrun soon? I wold really like to see it. ^^
if you have 300 bombchus, you could climb stone tower without hookshot :D
I thought I remebered that the hookshot was only used once during Mukkis run on the way up there. Thats why I asked.
I think, we'll arrive at the ranch to early, so the perfect option would be the beavers race. it's 20 seconds slower, but it saves explosives and it would be faster than waiting 1 minute in front of the ranch
there are also 20 rupees perfectly on the way up the beavers we could collect
You need the hookshot to get up there. without it you will truely need 300 chus.
oh, and I have a theory to skip the sonata of awaking!
the deku palace is under the woodfall map, when you haven't played the song yet. I have some doubt, that the loading zones are already there, but it's worth trying it
another problem is, that link can't be in OoB water and the OoB water under the area is really, really deep. the temple is in the middle, so it doesn't seem to be possible to get over to it
This will only ad time, not save it.
- The way from the palace to the temple isn't that far so it probably won't warant the lost explosives
- you need to go the way to get the warp-song
- you need to activate the owl in front of the tempel to get back here later and to get from here to Snowhead.
I don't think we can know how long it actually takes untill somebody tases it...
Btw. if I see it correctly the perfect time to be in shooting position would be shortly before 3:30, so it's a little later, still.
Would it be possible to climb stone tower without the hookshot or would that loose to much time? After you are up there you warp away to get explosives anyway and it could provide the missing time for the ranch bottle.
Yep I would like you to. ^^
I never thought you would be at the ranch this fast. I mean you did everything up to the bow and still got there this early? That's impressive. Isn't there anything on the list that you can do before going to the ranch?
But to be honest I also can't think of anything that would be possible before the ranch. Both Snowhead and climbing up to the stone tower would be slower without the hookshot and you can't get into the bay temple without the bottles...
That's a problem.
btw. @petrie
Why do the bay temple so late in the game? On the way there you walk by the Zora bottle game, which could provide much needed rupees for the rest of the run.
that's "a little" early.
Did you play the song of double time at the point where petrie listed to play it?
And did you make a video? I would like to see it in action.
Oh right you only have an additional trip to the pinnacle rock, not the Gerudo fortress. In this case the bottle probably would be slower...
Why did you guys used to get 3 bottles anyway. Wouldn't a second trip to pinnacle rock allways been faster than the Romani bottle?
