Posts for Spider-Waffle

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Posted: 3/20/2012 2:49 AM
(Edited: 3/20/2012 9:19 AM)
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Spider-Waffle
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Joined: 5/11/2004
Posts: 1049
Well I thought I may as well do the time estimates since I didn't see them anywhere. I don't know why you have to be so negative about that, and so hateful in general, or how you think you're helping. I'm not sure if we know which specific tree is ideal to check for nuts, the one large patch in the south as 6 nut trees and is the only obvious choice, but which tree, also I don't think there's any 5 rupee trees near them. I'm not sure what the Rupee plan is though, since you need 110 total, and can only hold 99 until you get adult wallet. You can get 92-95 if you get the platform and grass rubies, river bridge rubies and 2 chain rupees, but that's still 15 or so more you need from trees, I don't think there's many trees that can drop 5, Even if there were 3, I'm not sure if that's faster than selling bugs, is there something I'm missing? If you get all 3 of the chains you'd still be at 99r, needing 11r more.
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
Posted: 3/19/2012 11:48 PM
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Spider-Waffle
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Joined: 5/11/2004
Posts: 1049
I'm sure if anyone has verified if Tektite is faster that LLR. Someone did a RTS comparison without any HESS, and tektite was about 17s slower. So in trying to estimate the difference, I'm going with a day time system. Bloobleibla's TAS has 16s extra between egg hatch and KV, could be 14s if not getting rubies in lake, and spends 30s where sun isn't changing. ZFGs RTS spends 96s where sun isn't changing, make that a TAS and it'd be maybe 90s. So 90-(14+30)= 46s. So Tektite should be about 44s faster stopping at that. But for TAS with LLR way, you could 15 nuts and a bunch of rubies for free while waiting and skip picking and selling bugs and getting nuts. This save about 7s for bugs+sell, and 3s getting and RBAing nuts, both will be able to throw nuts for free during KD fight. So tektite is still 36s faster about. Please check if there's a flaw in this estimate. For bomb RBA, I've calculated for a RTS it should be able 30s faster, for a TAS it would even better since you can check less bushes and get even more bombs and check bushes you do check faster using bombs. Getting Well chus is another option but I'm pretty sure that's slower, since it takes the TAS about 2:50 extra to get the well chus, where as you can RBA bombs and gauntlets in 30s and pick up drops in 10s or so. I don't thinking having the extra Aslides before cojiro could possibly save 2:10 So If I'm mistaken it's pretty clear what the new any% ganonless route should be?
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
Posted: 3/16/2012 9:46 PM
(Edited: 3/17/2012 8:10 AM)
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Spider-Waffle
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Joined: 5/11/2004
Posts: 1049
What about RBAing bombs?
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
Posted: 3/15/2012 2:58 AM
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Spider-Waffle
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Joined: 5/11/2004
Posts: 1049
Yes I wondered about milk as well, since you're almost going to have 13 bombs at that point anyway. I was guessing getting milk would be slower than fish, and nuts take less than 15s total to get.
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
Posted: 3/14/2012 5:07 AM
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Spider-Waffle
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Joined: 5/11/2004
Posts: 1049
Are we sure there isn't a way to kill KD or finish forest temple with FW on B, such as hammer or skip to warp in forest temple as child? And can you use forest temple instead of DC? Can you get FW on B as child? The 6 trees in the NW corner of the map by the river all drop nuts, there's also 6 trees in the south that can drop nuts, they are all in the west half of the group, I can show exactly which ones on a map. Using the deku stick to HESS to market from KV saves about 5s, if you were thinking of buying an extra for 10r extra. You can also get 5r drops from certain trees.
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
Posted: 3/13/2012 6:29 AM
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Spider-Waffle
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Joined: 5/11/2004
Posts: 1049
I know fact checking helps and I've already said I do my best. I've never told people to "try this" as you say. It's more of me suggesting ideas and some people trying to debunk them, I check on their debunking and find the idea the still stands and post that. I don't know what else you expect of me. For the last idea about DC on mush timer, if that's what's you're referring to, I did watch blobledia's TAS many times, that wasn't the problem, it doesn't proove any route is clearly faster like mrgrunz said as it only does one route, I did a time check and found it to be faster. mrgrunz gave more reason for it be slower, I checked them and adjusted calcs and it was still faster. I don't know what's wrong with? It wasn't until Maxx pointed out how it couldn't work, which had nothing to do with fact checking and other TASes and was something everyone else had overlooked. I overlooked it too, which why posted here so it could get critiqued, as it's easy to overlook something like everyone but maxx did in this case. I don't know what you want you me adjust about that, I'm not perfect, I'm sorry, that's why it's an idea and not an order to do something. You can take idea how you want, but if you falsely debunk you should expect that to get checked on. I don't think got your facts straight before posting, I suggest you do more of that as this is the second time now.
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
Posted: 3/13/2012 4:47 AM
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Spider-Waffle
Banned User
Joined: 5/11/2004
Posts: 1049
Slowking wrote:
Let me guess how that went: You: "I know that the door of time skip is possible, I know it, try it, try it try it!!!!!!!!!!!111one" Everybody else: "It's not possible as far is we know. If you can come up with a plausible idea, come back." You: "But I know it's possible, I just know it, why won't anybody listen to me?!!!!111" Somebody quite some time later: "Oh hey I had this new idea for a door of time skip and what do you know it actually worked." You: "Seeee I told you it was possible, if you just had listened to me we could have had this years ago, even though I had no idea on how to actually accomplish this skip!!!!!111 Aren't you glad you finally listened to ME?! Even though nobody made any indication that I was in any way responsible for the idea or the fact that they tried it again, I'm so going to take credit for this!!!111 It was obviously all about ME!!!2"
Not quite, Comicalflop said he tried and it was immpossible and it should never be mentioned here again and it was a waste of time to to talk about it. I said if people tried hard enough there would likely be a way found and there was documented on what people tried. It has nothing to do with me being right and comicalflop being wrong, it's about attitudes that help the community find faster strats and ones that don't.
Slowking wrote:
Also I'm pretty sure that nobody ever told you that hover up to mirror shield wasn't faster. It clearly is. I'm pretty sure they told you that it wasn't feasable that late in an RTA. That's the problem here. You don't listen. You don't understand the difference between impossible and impractical. Ofcourse as cosmo became extremely good at MST, after one year of practice, he started using the hover up there. Don't be fooled into thinking that that had anything to do with you.
Actually they did say it was clearly slower, and that hovering took "forever" they didn't know how many hovers it would be, they just said it would be too many and take too long, being too difficult was never the reasoning. I calculated the time showed it'd be faster even if you used 50 hovers, but they just had bad attitudes. Whether or not Cosmo finally showing it was faster had anything to do with what I said over a year ago, is not the point. It's that I had the right idea long ago and people were too closed minded to listen and check it seriously. I'm not trying to get credit for something, I'm trying to show that I have good ideas and people should listen me more seriously and open minded.
And again, you seem mad and I can't see how it's justified, using profanity and telling to me see a psychologist and that I have a disorder. This is not called for on this forum, and I did nothing to warrant this.
Slowking wrote:
That word doesn't mean what you think it means. Kind of sad when a german has to correct your english...
well here's your quote:
Slowking wrote:
go the fuck away.
I don't know what you think profanity means... But continuing to use it and slander contributing members of this community and breaking forums will get you banned. I suppose we could do without your attitude as well, it's not helping anything.
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
Posted: 3/12/2012 5:05 AM
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Spider-Waffle
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Joined: 5/11/2004
Posts: 1049
The cut scene is shorter for picking them up that way though, and I'm not sure if the daylight timer is counting during it. If the time to equip is the same throwing 7, then it's neutral you need to wait on night still, but it might be faster. I don't know if you could equip the egg during this time as well, and not have to equip it after it hatches?
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
Posted: 3/12/2012 1:32 AM
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Spider-Waffle
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Joined: 5/11/2004
Posts: 1049
maxx wrote:
The only warp songs you get from Saw RBA are Prelude, Nocturne, and Serenade (as well as Lullaby). Bolero and Minuet are on a different byte (along with the medallions), and have values too high to RBA anyway. After KD, I think Serenade is the best bet. You can megaflip into the water below and hess all the way to the fishing pond, hover up using bombs + tektites, steal the rod, then slide out of LH to Gerudo Valley. LH to GV is a little faster than ToT to GV, but only by a couple seconds and costs extra bombs (and ends up being slower if you don't hess out of LH correctly), which is why console players don't typically do it. You have to steal the rod again at some point after KD before LACS, so it probably makes sense to do it along the way to Gerudo.
Ahh, that's too bad you don't get that song. Would the stick on B route be the same, but not steal the rod when at LH the second time? Also, the TAS needs to consider getting the nuts, I think manipulating 2 tree nuts would potentially be faster, it takes about 9s to buy nuts in the shop, and 3s to grab second bug, and 4s to sell bug; also about 3.5s to throw 7 nuts which I'm not sure if you could do while waiting on egg to hatch, or maybe egg hatches in time anyway. Either way, it's about 16s to buy nuts, where as collecting from trees near the route with an extra SS thrown in should be less than 16s, the cut scene for getting nuts is shorter this way.
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
Posted: 3/11/2012 10:06 PM
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Spider-Waffle
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Joined: 5/11/2004
Posts: 1049
Thanks gunz, you've been pretty accommodating of my ideas and I appreciate that. If it seems like I'm suggesting the same thing, it's because I'm finding enough evidence to support it and not enough to debunk it. Like with the DC Mush timer, I was just told it was slower, so I tried to calculate it well and it looked faster, then I get more reasons for it being slower, take those into account, and find it's still faster, then Maxx shows why is just can't work, I say thanks for pointing that out, what a glaring flaw in my idea. I don't want to hold onto ideas that can't work, just ones that haven't sufficiently been debunked, and I do this for any idea, regardless of it's origin. So I'm keen on this idea of doing magic and then DC after getting warp songs. Could you warp to fire temple, get magic, trick to DC, beat king, warp to ToT? Because that would save time by warping out of DC instead of death/save warping, wouldn't have to go from DC to magic, or out to KV, warping to fire temple and then to magic might be faster than going to magic from GC. And I had a idea for the pressure jump, could you set up 2 bombs and do a forward mega-flip to catch the ladder off the second bomb?
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
Posted: 3/11/2012 9:47 AM
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Spider-Waffle
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Joined: 5/11/2004
Posts: 1049
Wow, that warp to DC is awesome, I was going to say after you pointing the glaring problem with DC on mush timer, that there should be some shortcut to DC from magic area that's already been found, since they seem close together, but with terrain in the way, and the wall around magic is low. That would even mush timer way slower by a good 10s or more I think.
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
Posted: 3/11/2012 3:34 AM
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Spider-Waffle
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Joined: 5/11/2004
Posts: 1049
I was thinking of making a Metroid Hack that would be worth a TAS and RTS. I was wondering if anyone here would be interested in this project. I'm going to post on romhacking.net as well. There's a good Metroid Editor out already, but some extra hex editing might be required as well. The first objective is to make a game that great for normal play, and then TAS and RTS implementation will also be kept in mind.
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
Posted: 3/11/2012 1:26 AM
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Spider-Waffle
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Joined: 5/11/2004
Posts: 1049
Slowking wrote:
Yeah sure we are outraged. So outraged, that we calmly try to explain to you, over and over, why something does not work. At this point we are just really annoyed. Do your own timing or go the fuck away.
That doesn't seem like calmly trying to explain why something doesn't work... Thanks for proving my point. cheers
Slowking wrote:
You really think those things had anything to do with you? You might want to go to a psychologist. I think there is a lot of narcissistic personality disorder to be treated here.
Well those were things which I adamantly supported in the face of violent opposition via telling me I was wrong or it was impossible or was slower with false or no reasoning; which were later proved to work and be better. Had people listened to me more opened-minded sooner they could have been found even sooner, that was all I was trying to convey. And again, you seem mad and I can't see how it's justified, using profanity and telling to me see a psychologist and that I have a disorder. This is not called for on this forum, and I did nothing to warrant this. I'm in no way trying to annoy you, I'm out for the same goal as you, to help see the fastest runs to finished. I'm bound to suggest things which people with more knowledge of the game already know don't work for various reasons. I do my best check sources and not suggest things which waste time and clutter. I appreciate baring with some dumb questions from time to time, but do recognize I suggest gems in the face doubt which turn out to be great as well.
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
Posted: 3/11/2012 12:14 AM
Post subject: Re: The opposition... so violent... dotdotdot
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Spider-Waffle
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Joined: 5/11/2004
Posts: 1049
JXQ wrote:
Spider-Waffle wrote:
It still baffles me to this day why this community doesn't agree with this and I face such violent opposition for doing the later.
I would guess that it's because you ask open-ended questions that you could easily answer yourself with basic testing/timing, but you don't. The "explanation or valid proof" is right there for you to find - why don't you go find it? The "investigat[ion]" you are claiming to do is more just asking others to satisfy your own lazy curiosity. Then you claim to be the victim of "violent opposition" when others don't do the work for you in order to validate/disprove your claim. And this is a pattern you've shown in other game threads, so people come to expect it from you more and more, and have learned to dismiss you more quickly.
Others not testing to figure out what routes are fastest before they make TASes or RTS is one thing, but the violent opposition I'm referring is obviously not that, It's much more to do with people's outrage when I propose the idea that their crude assumption is quite possibly wrong. If they're mad that I'm not doing all the exact testing to prove which is faster, they should express that. Getting mad about the idea their crude assumption is wrong doesn't express this to me. They could say, "you bring a great point and back it up with some evidence that this assumption may in fact be false and making a run with this assumption could quite possibly be using a bad strat strategy when a better one is available, until someone or myself tests this I will retract the assumption that of one route being clearing faster is true." Whoever wants to tests it can do it, I'm not making the runs, I'm not that skilled at playing or testing, though I have tried on many occasions. I'm just helping people for when they do want to make runs that they might actually test something I'm showing could be possible or better. Since they're doing the runs it would make the most since that they would want to test this themselves to ensure they're doing the best strategy. What gets me is when instead of this they get mad at me for pointing out the glaring holes in their assumptions and logic, or an alternative strategy which could be faster. If they don't want to test it that's fine, but if they can't proove it's not better then they need to say this and preferably in the comments as well so other runners know there is another strategy which could be faster that they didn't test. Not just be upset I don't test it and say that I'm wrong with no proof. If had the skill the easily test, I would. Being mad, ignoring, or making false claims because I don't is no way justified. You'd also think my track record, with DoT skip, Spirit temple hovers to skip bean, tektite, child swordless; people would start appreciating my suggestions and want to test them more open minded by now. Again, I can't test my suggestion well at all which I why I bring them here so other people can test them or show interest in them.
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
Posted: 3/10/2012 10:18 PM
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Spider-Waffle
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Joined: 5/11/2004
Posts: 1049
MrGrunz wrote:
And other than that, you are so keen on being right, that you simply ignore the stuff I write. I wrote, that we want to warp out of the Boss Room of Dodongo's Cavern instead of dying and going up to magic then. We get magic before Dodongo's Cavern and then warp to Lake Hylia after killing King Dodongo. And that's why we do DC after Magic.
It has nothing to do with being right, I'm trying to help find the fastest route which I'm basing off to the nearest second timing from TASes. If you expect me to concede to common opinion when no explanation or valid proof is given, you've got me all wrong. When something is possibly faster I'm going to investigate until I find sufficient proof one way or the other. If you don't like that, then you are doing a disservice to the community. So you'd have to add the time of death warping and getting out of DC and back on the track to KV, which is 10s So I still wager DC on mush timer is 3s faster. But any case, the route magic to DC needs timing, and GC to DC to KV as well. Neither of them is clearly faster, but assuming they are the same, DC on mush timer would be 3s faster. Rely on route choices less on intuition and assumptions and more on scientific facts and experimentation. It still baffles me to this day why this community doesn't agree with this and I face such violent opposition for doing the later.
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
Posted: 3/10/2012 3:51 AM
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Spider-Waffle
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Joined: 5/11/2004
Posts: 1049
MrGrunz wrote:
come on, spiderwaffle. Did you ever watch Bloobiebla's TAS? It is clearly fastest to go via Hyrule Field.
Well he never goes from LW to KV through DMT so nothing is clearly faster. Also, you'd have to add the difference in time from going to DC before magic and when going by DC. It takes him 50s to get from LW item to door of shop going through HF, and 27s to get from LW to DMT going through GC, It should take about the same amount of time extra to do DC before magic as it would to get from GC exit to KV. So if anyone of the routes is clearly faster I think it's going through GC to DMT, by about 13s.
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
Posted: 3/9/2012 1:22 AM
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Spider-Waffle
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Joined: 5/11/2004
Posts: 1049
MrGrunz wrote:
Spider-Waffle wrote:
With Navi trick on sidehop, doing DC on Mush timer seems very good for TAS, this way you could save 20s by not going off route and do DC after getting mushroom.
I don't get what you want with that mushroom thing. DC is done AFTER magic, for 2 obvious reasons: - Once you have Poacher's Saw, you RBA warp songs. So doing DC this late in the run allows us to warp out of the boss room after beating King Dodongo instead of dieing. We have to warp to Lake Hylia anyway to get to Gerudo Valley, where we get the Broken Sword, so wapring instead of dieing saves quite some time. - To get from Lost Woods to Kakariko it is cleary fastest to travel over Hyrule Field. Going through Goron City after Odd Mushroom would cost quite some time, especially because we don't have the hookshot. And before somebody asks: You can't use the Ocarina in Boss Rooms, but to be still able to warp there, we can simply use Ocarina Items (Backflip + Bottle + Bomb).
Are you sure it's faster to get from LW to KV by going through forest and field? I thought it'd be going to GC and DMT to KV, in which case DC is 1s off route and it'd be fastest to do it then instead of dropping down before or after magic, even if it's slower the difference would still have to be timed.
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
Posted: 3/8/2012 5:25 AM
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Spider-Waffle
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Joined: 5/11/2004
Posts: 1049
I did a RTS of new york 100% and cash many years back, it's not too hard.
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
Posted: 3/7/2012 10:48 PM
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Spider-Waffle
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Joined: 5/11/2004
Posts: 1049
With Navi trick on sidehop, doing DC on Mush timer seems very good for TAS, this way you could save 20s by not going off route and do DC after getting mushroom.
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
Posted: 3/6/2012 6:31 AM
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Spider-Waffle
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Posts: 1049
This a post a made at ZSR.com, it's intended for RTS but most of it is very relevant for TAS as well, so bear that in mind. "I'm guessing this will be met with some violent opposition as was the case when I suggested: try harder for DoT skip, hover into spirit temple and skip bean, and skip sword in child section; I'm not sure why so many members of this community are violently against intelligently timing and testing plausible routes, and insist intuition alone is all that is necessary even though they're wrong many times. I think WASD or some other mod banned me from ZFG twitch channel last for talking along these lines I post below, which further reinforces my assessment above. The Current Route uses Lon Lon and gets bomb bag in DC, tries 2-3 trees for nuts. It can't only be improved by missing no SSs, HISS, or pressures jumps which is a feat never seen before; or doing unbuffered valley skip, which is also very hard. There's some other possible routes such as RBA bomb bag with Cojiro and Lastly Tektite which likely have higher probability of being to save time: -Saves the 3:07 it takes from start DC to light eyes with getting bomb bag and one death (which I think is needed for some BA stuff) is the main benefit, but there's some others as well... -Having bombs before DC allows you to do DC w/e, it could be right after odd mushroom which is only 1-2s off route. Normally you'd be doing to DC after getting Cojiro and going to Lost Woods to trade for Odd Mushroom afterwards which forces you to watch both the Death Mountain Trail (11s) and Goron City Intro (7s) cutscenes. This way you would enter these areas from different entrances and thus allow you to skip them. The current way, DMT, takes 89s from shop to odd M, and going through forest takes about 70s and using a 2 extra bombs, 1 for HISS and 1 for pressure jump. This would save an additional 19s. I checked the Odd M timer: There is 1:43 extra time left on timer to use. It takes a RTS takes 46s of timer countdown from lighting eyes to exit of DC, so 1:43-(46+1)=56s that you'd have of odd mushroom timer from start of DC to opening eyes. For the hovering, it's 5s first 3 hovers, 4s each after that, so 17-29s depending on number of hovers (which really needs more testing) You might be able to glitch through the jaw line like DoT skip without lighting eyes. Then 4s to light eyes in which timer counts. So a maximum of 33s. 56-33=23s of timer from start of DC to starting hovers, worst case, 9 hovers, or 35s best case, 6 hovers. It takes about 12s of timer from start DC to middle beamos, so that seems like you'd have around 11s for 9 hovers, or 23s for 6 hovers of time to spare. So you'd have to be able to get with 11 hovers maximum if doing while going against Odd M timer to save those extra 19s, This would only allow for 1 beamos drop unless you can do it in 6-8 hovers since it takes about 15s to get an 2nd drop from a 2nd beamos. -Doing DC right before magic I don't think would save any time because I believe it's about 19s off route, so you'd waste the 19s you save by going through forest afters shop. -You can buy bombs from the shop for 35r which means 27r extra I believe, you can get 5 from jumping platforms after KF shop and 1-2 in bush after that, then get the 20r in the river and maybe 1-2r extra (not sure) which should let you get 27r extra at about 8s extra, which is faster and more consistent than RBAing gaunlets to try for bush drop. -After buying bombs, you can try 1 bomb on the 5 bushes in KV, and 1 bomb on the bushes in LW (2 more optional bushes to check), if you get 1 drop from these, you'd have 5+5-4(KV bushes, HISS, pressure jump, LW bushes)= 6 bombs, use one on middle beamos and you'd have 10, 8 to hover and 2 for eyes. Or, check no bushes, get to DC with 3 bombs, and double beamos for 12 bombs (use bomb flower on one), I'm not sure, do you need one for GV blockade? There's other options of course by these seem most likely and the best chances for luck, again we really need to test how many hovers it tends to take and if you can skip lighting eyes. So in summary, this route should save 19s from alternate KV shop to DC route, and start DC to light eyes would take about 12s to middle beamos, about 24s for hovering (8 hovers), 17s to light eyes; so 12+24+17= 53s, compared to 3:07 the current route so another 2:14, so 2:33 of raw savings Granted you'll only have 2-5 bombs after DC instead 17; however, only 5 are needed, the rest are are for SSs and pressure jump, and there's more places to try for bombs drops as well. Even if you have to get an extra drop and/or and skip the extra SSs they save less than 1:00 altogether. I'm not sure if you could sell bugs twice and buy 2 sets of bombs either... And Lastly to tektite: I'm not sure the exact completion rate Pokey gets it but I've heard around 10%, which is certainly much much higher than missing no SSs, HISS, or pressure jumps. The time this would save needs to be calculated and tested, but pretty soon one of these routes will be necessary to save time over the current one."
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
Posted: 3/6/2012 4:50 AM
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Spider-Waffle
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Joined: 5/11/2004
Posts: 1049
After getting magic we warp to Lake Hylia any way, because this is the quickest way to get to Gerudo Valley to trade for the Broken Sword. When we are at lake Hylia any way, we can simply quickly hover up to the Fishing Pond once again and steal the rod.
How were you planning to warp to lake Hylia after magic? I checked the differences in routes: from shop to Odd mushroom going through forest is about 70s and uses 2 bombs, 1 for HISS and 1 for pressure jump. Shop to Odd Mushroom going through DMT and GV is about 89s which includes the extra cut scenes and uses no extra bombs (you'd have to use one in GV eventually for both routes) So it saves about 19s but uses 2 extra bombs. But if not mistaken doing doing DC before magic would be around 20s off route so you blow all savings by doing it that way. So... Couldn't you do DC after getting Odd Mushroom? It's only 1-2s off route compared to about 20s from magic. I checked on the shroom timer, it takes a RTS takes 46s of timer countdown from lighting eyes to exit of DC, and has 1:43 extra time left, so 1:43-(46+1)=56s that you'd have of odd mushroom timer from start of DC to opening eyes. For the hovering, it's 5s first 3 hovers, 4s each after that, so 17-29s depending on number of hovers (which really needs more testing) You might be able to glitch through the jaw line like DoT skip without lighting eyes. Then 4s to light eyes in which timer counts. So a maximum of 33s. 56-33=23s of timer from start of DC to starting hovers, worst case, 9 hovers, or 35s best case, 6 hovers. It takes about 12s of timer from start DC to middle beamos, so that seems like you'd have around 11s for 9 hovers, or 23s for 6 hovers of time to spare.
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
Posted: 3/5/2012 5:16 PM
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Spider-Waffle
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Joined: 5/11/2004
Posts: 1049
Which rock would you use after cojiro? And would you still go to DM trail after cojiro if you do DC after magic? Because the having access to the middle bushes in KV right after cojiro might be worth the 15s if no rock is within 15s on route before you need to SS and what not.
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
Posted: 3/5/2012 6:53 AM
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Spider-Waffle
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Joined: 5/11/2004
Posts: 1049
rog wrote:
you really need to do this to pick up bushes?
Yes, but you can destroy them with items if you have them.
What items besides bombs can you use?
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
Posted: 3/5/2012 5:46 AM
(Edited: 3/5/2012 7:26 AM)
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Spider-Waffle
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Joined: 5/11/2004
Posts: 1049
So for a TAS, you could double RBA to get gauntlets (you really need to do this to pick up bushes?) and bag +30s, drop a bush, get bomb, drop bomb, drop another bush or two, SS off bomb and pick up 1-4 more bomb drops from bushes that explode, for 19-30 bombs, +4s -3s=+1s. You might be able to stair case by beamos and use beamos for a staircase hit, and get bomb drop from beamos when it explodes, I don't know if you can jump off beams too. You might not even have to get up to jaw line because you can throw the bombs a bit higher than that and fairly far too. The hovering would cost 5s for first 3 hits and then 4s more for each bomb used after that, so 13-17s. So that's about 44-57s extra depending on how many hovers it takes. A RTS takes about 2:40 extra from middle beamos to get bomb bag and light eyes, so a TAS would be maybe 2:30, it's a fairly simple path that's mostly waiting on bomb flowers, doors, pillars and flipping/backwalking/rolling in straight lines. So For a TAS it would save about 150 - (44 to 57s) 106s to 93s plus get way more bombs, and not to mention the time saved from SSs with by having bombs on the way to and inside DC and not waiting on first bomb flower in DC. If a RTS can with some consistency get it with just 1 bush/rock drop + 1-3 beamos drop(s) then I feel it would a big saver and well worth it, but I'll end the discussion with that and bring the idea to ZSR.com
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
Posted: 3/4/2012 11:15 PM
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Spider-Waffle
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Joined: 5/11/2004
Posts: 1049
I guess the main problem for RTS is getting the bomb drops, you'd need 2 before DC, which very rare giving you only bushes in KV and some rocks, not sure if you can get a drop from the enemies in DC though? Saying it takes too long to wait on bombs and you can't get max height is very extraneous unless you provide the numbers and probabilities and have actually done some testing. And like I said, you don't necessarily need 20 extra bombs after lighting eyes, if it saves 1:00, then you could skip mostly all of the SS/HISS/pressure jumps, which would make the run easier in a way.
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
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