If you've ever speedrunned OoT you would know that descending ZR is significantly faster than taking the owl, assuming you've just obtained the bottle from King Zora.
Well ok then if you say it takes too long, golden scale is out.
That would mean the silver scale route...
Well at least the diving game gives you 25r. Combined with the 40r from the bridge and a little bit extra that would be enough to buy the Hylia Shield.
@Synx
Afaik it has been proven a long time ago that the Kakariko bottle is slower than the Zora bottle, even with golden scale...
Ofcourse it's hard to know, since the people who want to TAS this game are pretty silent. But from what I've heard they tested it out and Ruto-bottle was faster.
Edit:
Hmm to get the rupees for the shield you could just play a second diving game. You are up there to get the silver scale anyway. The Zora actually throws red and pink rupees in the water. I got him up to 3 red, but maybe he throws even more. Maybe even 2 pink and one red are possible. Now manipulate them that they land close together and you have all the money you could want.
Edit2: He actually throws orange rupees if you are lucky (or manipulate the luck). :D So that ofcourse maxes out your wallet and will be more than enough to buy the shield. ^^
Maybe you can even get it thrown close to the warp to Lake Hylia, so that you can do both in one dive.
Edit3: Ofcourse you also get about 22r from swimming down ZR, you still have 25r from the first diving game and you could get 40r from the castle town draw bridge. I honestly don't know what would be faster... Bridge or a second diving game...
You keep saying that the kakarikobottle is "proven" to be slower than the others.
This is simply not the case. Remember that you won't be too early for the owl anymore and have to wait at Lake Hylia for 20 secs because that time is spent buying and planting the beans now.
Which is why I still think it's the fastest.
I am not even convinced that the silverscale is faster than the goldscale route.
The trip up Zoras river is long ^_^
This leaves us with the following 3 routes to be tested: (Only the Cuccobottle-route catches a bug)
Goldscale route: (g)
1g/1s/1c. get sword, shield and stick then old forrest escape to Hyrule Fields.
2g/2s/2c. Exit Hyrule Fields to Zoras River.
3g/3c. Get rupies and buy Beans, then exit Zoras River to Hyrule Fields
4g. Cross Hyrule Fields to Lake Hylia
5g. Get rupies, plant bean and enter fishingpond
6g. Get Golden Scale, Leave fishingpond.
7g. Get Bottle then dive to Zoras Domain
8g/6s. Get real bottle, then exit to Zoras River
9g/7s. Exit to Hyrule Fields
10g/8s. Enter Marketplace
total: 10 areas
Silverscale route: (s)
1s/1g/1c. get sword, shield and stick then old forrest escape to Hyrule Fields.
2s/2g/2c. Exit Hyrule Fields to Zoras River.
3s. Get rupies and buy Beans, then exit Zoras River to Zoras domain.
4s. Get Silverscale and dive to lake hylia.
5s. Get bottle and plant bean then dive back to Zoras domain.
6s/8g. Get real bottle, then exit to Zoras River
7s/9g. Exit to Hyrule Fields
8s/10g. Enter Marketplace
total: 8 areas
Cuccobottle route: (c)
1c/1g/1s. get sword, shield and stick then old forrest escape to Hyrule Fields.
2c/2g/2s. Exit Hyrule Fields to Zoras River.
3c/3g. Get rupies and buy Beans, then exit Zoras River to Hyrule Fields
4c. Exit Hyrule Fields to Kakariko Village
5c. Get Cucco-bottle
6c. Cross Hyrule Fields to Lake Hylia
7c Plant Beans, get Rupies, get bug, grab owl
8c. Enter Marketplace
total: 8 areas
comments: 8g/6s. means that the goldscaleroute at point 8 is the same as silverscaleroute point 6
If you've ever speedrunned OoT you would know that descending ZR is significantly faster than taking the owl, assuming you've just obtained the bottle from King Zora.
Thank you for confirming this.
Now that excludes the Owl from both the Silver and the Gold scale routes.
The cuccobottle-route will probably not get to the Owl too early (like it did in the WIP) because extra gametime is spent buying & planting the bean now.
A while ago we did a test run where we got the sword and used ESS to escape Kokiri. Sidehopped to Lake Hylia, got the golden scale and obtained the bottle and headed down Zora's River (after speaking to King Zora). It became dawn when we were halfway down ZR. Because of this I don't see how obtaining the golden scale is worthwhile, after all the distances in Lake Hylia and Zora's river is massive. I think it's best just to get the silver scale. The only question is where bugs will be obtained. Is there any good spots in ZR? If not it will either have to be obtained in the graveyard or in a grotto as AL.
Then why would you go down Zoras River anyway? If you don't have to wait for dawn the best bet is the owl. It's right there and takes you straight to the market. With it golden scale should be quickest. Remember this time you will get the shield and thus will be able to super slide.
So the golden scale route should look like this:
- get sword, shield and stick (-50r)
- old forest escape
- peahat SS to ZR
- buy magic bean (-60r)
- through hyrule field to lake hylia (I hope you can make it to the peahat before night)
- get golden scale (-80r)
- get ruto bottle
- get real bottle from king zora
- go back to lake hylia through the warp
- plant bean
- fly with the owl to castle town
- buy the hylia shield (-160r) and travel foreward in time
But I can see that silver scale would be back in. Still, golden scale is still an option and I think it would probably kick silver scales ass.
And again if it get's dawn with both options pretty close after obtaining, which it probably will, owl should always be faster than making your way manually.
Btw. wouldn't it be enough to get the bugs as an adault in Kakariko?
With the Owl it takes 70 seconds from u step on the bridge in Lake Hylia until u exit Hyrule Fields to Marketplace. I am not convinced that this + the time it takes from King Zora to the bridge is less than the time it takes from King Zora down Zoras River and into the marketplace. Someone should test this... it should be easy.
A while ago we did a test run where we got the sword and used ESS to escape Kokiri. Sidehopped to Lake Hylia, got the golden scale and obtained the bottle and headed down Zora's River (after speaking to King Zora). It became dawn when we were halfway down ZR. Because of this I don't see how obtaining the golden scale is worthwhile, after all the distances in Lake Hylia and Zora's river is massive. I think it's best just to get the silver scale. The only question is where bugs will be obtained. Is there any good spots in ZR? If not it will either have to be obtained in the graveyard or in a grotto as AL.
Edited:
That route is not very fast considering the recent finds.
The goldscale route should look like this:
Goldscale route: (g)
1g/1s/1c. get sword, shield and stick then old forrest escape to Hyrule Fields.
2g/2s/2c. Exit Hyrule Fields to Zoras River.
3g/3c. Get rupies and buy Beans, then exit Zoras River to Hyrule Fields
4g. Cross Hyrule Fields to Lake Hylia
5g. Get rupies, plant bean and enter fishingpond
6g. Get Golden Scale, Leave fishingpond.
7g. Get Bottle then dive to Zoras Domain
8g/6s. Get real bottle, then exit to Zoras River
9g/7s. Exit to Hyrule Fields
10g/8s. Enter Marketplace
The reason I think the cuco-bottle is faster even though gametime isn't spent in Kakariko village is because I assume the time spent gathering cucos etc is less than the time spent travelling in Zoras domain (twice with the silverscale route). The cucco-bottle saves realtime since you will not be travelling through Zoras River and you don't need to visit Lake Hylia twice.
You don't have to visit the lake twice with the silver scale route, just once to grab the bottle and plant the seed. You also don't have to travel across the field so much. And going down the river is a lot faster than going up. One problem is where to get the beatle from with that route, as you won't have an empty bottle when at the lake.
For the silverscale u need to travel up Zoras River. The twice in Lake Hylia was meant for the Goldscale route.
Edit: The goldscale-route wastes the least time (wastes time as in spending realtime without spending gametime)
Here is the route I currently think is the fastest:
Across Hyrule field from kokiri Forrest --> Zoras river (X gametime seconds & Y realtime seconds)
[Getting 10 rupies] & buying magic bean and exiting to Hyrule field (X gametime seconds & Y realtime seconds)
Exit Hyrule Field to Kakariko Village (X gametime seconds & Y realtime seconds)
Get cucobottle & exit to Hyrule Field (227 realtime seconds)
Cross Hyrule Fields to Lake Hylia (49 gametime seconds 52 realtime seconds)
Get rupies, get bug, plant bean then either grab owl or get to marketplace through Hyrule Fields. If there is enough gametime left until dawn, then crossing Hyrule Fields to marketplace is quicker.
The reason I think the cuco-bottle is faster even though gametime isn't spent in Kakariko village is because I assume the time spent gathering cucos etc is less than the time spent travelling in Zoras domain (twice with the silverscale route). The cucco-bottle saves realtime since you will not be travelling through Zoras River and you don't need to visit Lake Hylia twice.
If someone could fill in some estimates for the amount of seconds in some of these routes then it would be more easy to compare. I will look through the current WIP from Swordless & co tomorrow and edit my routes to include the time spent on similar parts of the run
A while ago we did a test run where we got the sword and used ESS to escape Kokiri. Sidehopped to Lake Hylia, got the golden scale and obtained the bottle and headed down Zora's River (after speaking to King Zora). It became dawn when we were halfway down ZR. Because of this I don't see how obtaining the golden scale is worthwhile, after all the distances in Lake Hylia and Zora's river is massive. I think it's best just to get the silver scale. The only question is where bugs will be obtained. Is there any good spots in ZR? If not it will either have to be obtained in the graveyard or in a grotto as AL.
Why would u head down Zoras River? Did u think that would be faster than swimming to Lake Hylia?
I have to agree with Kuwaga.
The best way to show which route is faster is to set up some easy calculations.
Someone fill in the number of gametimeseconds & realtime seconds for each part of each route, then add them up.
For one route it would look like this:
Across Hyrule field from kokiri Forrest --> Zoras river (X gametime seconds & Y realtime seconds)
Buying magic bean and exiting to Hyrule field (X gametime seconds & Y realtime seconds)
Across Hyrule Field to Lake Hylia (X gametime seconds & Y realtime seconds)
getting rupies and entering fishingpond (X gametime seconds & Y realtime seconds)
Getting Goldscale and leaving fishingpond (X gametime seconds & Y realtime seconds)
Dive to bottle and exit to Zoras Domain (X gametime seconds & Y realtime seconds)
Get real bottle from king and exit to Lake Hylia (X gametime seconds & Y realtime seconds)
Planting bean, grabbing owl & watching cutscene (X gametime seconds & Y realtime seconds)
= X gametime seconds & Y realtime seconds
Also the bridge is impossible to get over without hookshot.
Owned :P
Thx for rubbing it in :P
I am more happy that progress is being made on OoT than I am bummed by being wrong anyways xD
Probably a stupid question: Can't we get to the Market quicker without grabbing the owl at Lake Hylia now?
This is not the place to have this discussion. But keep in mind that "fastest possible" is not the be-all, end-all goal of the site.
Agreed that being the fastest is not the only concern (alltough it is the main one)
What reason is big enough to justify using the slower ROM in the case of OoT?
This topic doesn't state that it's limited to discuss only the American OoT-ROM, but if there is another topic suited to discuss these matters I would gladly present my arguments there as well
Rational argument for using the japanese ROM:
Lets say you don't use the japanese ROM and you do the TAS as quickly as possible and then u publish it here.
Then this other guy uses the japanese ROM and does exactly the same as you, but his run is 5 minuts faster because the text & cutscenes are faster.
Do you see the problem here?
It's logical to use the fastest ROM if the gameplay is still the same.
of course not
anyway, I highly doubt, that mega sidehop + jumpslash reaches more distance than a mega flip. it should actually be shorter
about the "do bridge skip with deku stick ISG":
to get bottle on B, we must have 0 deku sticks, so when we want to do the bridge skip, we have 0 sticks. means, that we have to get a deku stick as adult. the best place would be the kokiri forest store, but it would cost a good amount of 20-25 seconds to do that.
dieing to get stick on B also costs 10 seconds, so a bridge skip without ISG would still save 30-40 seconds, which is huge ;)
I know it lets you mega flip closer the ledge but why. Why can't you do that without it?
Aren't there ways to do sideways/backwards facing rolls and what not? and what about mega side-hop?
Maybe there's some new glitches to found like mega flip out of a SS, or grabbing a cuco before a mega flip.
there are no cucos as adult
Spider-Waffle wrote:
could you upset the cuco and use it to give you an additional boost when you're close to the bridge?
Or what about throwing another bomb right before you megaflip and boosting off of that?
Or do a forwards megaflip and grab the ledge?
I know it lets you mega flip closer the ledge but why. Why can't you do that without it?
Aren't there ways to do sideways/backwards facing rolls and what not? and what about mega side-hop?
Maybe there's some new glitches to found like mega flip out of a SS, or grabbing a cuco before a mega flip.
Mitjitsu
The only real improvement is the 3 sec improvement on the rupee-route.
I don't count the magic beans early since that's useless if u can't get across Gerudo Valley without hookshot, which I still don't think is possible.
It doesn't matter if it's only a 3 second improvement early on, it requires a radical strategy change. With that also comes randomness so we'd have to do Hyrule Field and Kakariko again. The Gerudo bridge skip is so marginal that it can't be deemed to be impossible
Regardless there is a new WIP I've kept for the last few weeks.
If it was me I would ignore the 3 sec improvement to rupee-route.
Mr Grunz hasn't implied anything about finishing an any% TAS for this game yet.
Also the bridge is impossible to get over without hookshot.
Mitjitsu
The only real improvement is the 3 sec improvement on the rupee-route.
I don't count the magic beans early since that's useless if u can't get across Gerudo Valley without hookshot, which I still don't think is possible.
