I'm typing up actual constructive criticism for the run, and sending it to Guano and I'll post it publicly. But I am giving the TAS the full amount of attention I give the other runs, but this is a longer run, so it is taking me some time to break it down. That is why I have not posted the comments yet. I'll probably watch the video 4-5 times more before I really have them done.
So please be patient, I have "helpful" cricitism coming. Hopefully it helps Guano or whoever out.
To whoever compared my 4:57 run to the TAS, you broke the cardinal sin of speedrunning. Do not ever try to fricking compare "skill" with the two. A TAS shows a different type of "skill" than a speedrun.
If you start debating this, it will end up in a flame war...
Are you guys so prejudiced and blind-sighted (some of you, not all) that you really think I'm a bickering because of the "TAS vs Speedrun" issue? I could give a rat's ass about that debate, it's stupid and unrelated.
My entire rant is to point out this run is not as good as it could have been, REGARLDESS OF NEW TRICKS, and I asked how it was allowed to pass when some things could have EASILY been fixed (I POINTED OUT THE RUPEE ROUTE) without messing up the rest of the run.
I know perfection is impossible, but strives for "perfection" is the goal here, is it not, for everyone, both TASs and Speedruns?
Seriously, get off your high horses and stop being pissed I criticized your "almight" OoT TAS. What the hell did you expect, when I bash my own OoT runs to death and bash every single one for their flaws?
You want me to hold your hand and say "Oh, it's awesome, best thing I've seen"?
1) OoT is boring as hell to watch 2) This run was far from what it could have been. SPENDING JUST A BIT MORE TIME ON IT would have made a big difference.
Of course, I am glad to hear Guano and company are working on version 2.0 of the TAS, and I look forward to it.
Sure, I love watching these things, but understand somebody has to play devil's advocate and actually point out things. If you can't handle criticism, then just publish the runs and do not have any threads for feedback.
And again, anyone who turns this into me trying to start a TAS versus Speedrun thread can kiss my butt. You are making it this, not me.
And when I said "serve", who the hell said serve SDA? Now I know where some of your minds are. When I said "serve", I meant to serve the community, to anyone who cares, to SHOW HOW THE BEAT A GAME IN THE THEORETICAL FASTEST WAY POSSIBLE, INDISCRIMINATE OF AUDIENCE.
Seriously, some of you guys need to check your damn attitudes at the door, and stop having this damn "mental" hate against me for whatever reason.
And AKA said he could beat parts of the TAS, too. I said myself or others could beat parts of the TAS. Or do you get mad at everyone who beats a TAS time? Did you guys crucify Lucid when his Solstice run beat the TAS?
Stop the hate. Grow up. It's getting old.
Since I only know of SDA as the major OoT discussion area for runs outside of here, that is why I mentioned SDA. If others existed, I would have named them.
And only somebody ignorant would state the progress of other runs, whatever form they are, have no bearing on a a WIP of any type of run of the same game, especially if newer tactics are being employed.
Not sure about the guidelines here, but did they magically change from solely being entertainment based from "being absolutely best possible run with best known tricks at fastest time possible"?
Sorry, speed and tactics over entertainment. If you want entertainment, then I fail to see why only emulator movies are accepted here...I really think the TAS mandate of "entertaining" is superficial, an excuse to rationalize their existance beyond what they're really meant for.
No offense, but TAS serve only as research tools, to show what is possible. If you want entertainment, then you guys need to rename this site MachinimaVideos. Because they've been around before the TAS, and a TAS is merely Machinima if it is solely for entertainment.
Again, just be the status-quo of t his site, this OoT was not up to par. Popularity demends....so I guess give the people what they want. But unlike the other Zelda TAS, which for the most part I respect, until this OoT run is improved, it's just another speedrun. If you're not going to utilize the functions a TAS allows you, why bother?
Alright, I'm commenting on this because too many people are IMing me about this run.
I don't see why this run was published here. At SDA, we can post a run with outdated tricks as a run is done because we don't have the emulator's advantages. This run, in my opinion, was only put out as it is because 1) It's OoT and 2) It wanted to get out before my or anyone else's run to gain the attention.
In all honesty, while I could never replicate this TAS, nor with more tricks will my run beat this time (97% sure), this TAS was sub-par. I am positive somebody can beat several segments in this TAS, as is, on a standard console - and this is without new tricks.
Primary example? The Rupee route at the start. What was that?
And what was with the excessive backwalking over distances where it is not justified (IE it wastes time)?
Sure, some parts were amazing, but there were still obvious, very obvious issues with the run.
Also, until that sub-menu issue is fixed...that got annoying.
I'm with the mindset of a few people here that this run should not have come out now, it should have had more research done, and waited for the SDA runs to come to a halt (which it is going to reach very soon - we're running out of tricks) to have all the known tricks out, and then made a TAS that would be unmatched.
As it stands...with Bottle Adventure and other tricks skipped, the TAS will be sub 2.
Not sure, besides two things, the TAS didn't really show anything new. Congrats on actually spending the time to get this done, but it should have remained in WIP mode.
Just my two cents.
I can't wait for this to be done. You should be getting under 2:20...which means 2:30 is realistic since you aren't abusing emu-only bugs (like ALttP did).
And splitting does not save more than a few mins at most, but I meant the ability to, when you "roll", press B to "skid" - if you do it on Darknuts, you insta-kill them with a "spin attack" when you land the blow.
Just go watch my battle against them before Vaati. How long was just THAT room? Cut it down to mere seconds...
Now you get what I am saying.
You need to get the Roll-Dash attack and the Faster Charge - Roll-Dash allows you to pwn Darknuts, Faster Charge to pwn bosses that require the charge + faster puzzle solving involving it.
Just those two things shave about 10 minutes off my current run.
If I had the time to learn how to do a TAS, I would help. But it's another thing I'd have to learn, and this game is way too long. I'd rather keep focusing on getting sub-4 in a console run...plus, I'm not to sure how people would react to me making a TAS of a Zelda game.
Well, 1:18 is the TAS of the minimalist, and the run that's yet to be put up by me is 1:35. So 17 mins just for minimalist...I think 30 mins for 100% is a reasonable improvement over the real run.
I bet overall if you did everything absolutely perfectly at least 5 minutes could be saved off of the deku tree section in TSA's run, if not more. In fact, I would guess more.
You mean the Kokiri Forest part + Deku Tree? Because I'm pretty sure my Deku Tree was like 6 mins long...meaning if you just meant the Deku Tree, that would mean the TAS would be 1 minute of that dungeon. I don't think that is possible....But I am positive a few mins would be saved on the whole first portion of the Young Link part (Kokiri Forest + Deku Tree)
Jammer01 wrote:
And about forced waits, many of the tricks Acryte discovered are designed to skip a significant amount of those forced waits. According to TSA, most messages can be skipped simply by mashing B or A or something at just the right time, and in a tool assisted run, this should be no problem. Acryte has ways of skipping some of those messages that can't be skipped in this manner by very cool stuff.
Button mashing B going into a text convo sometimes bypasses it altogether. Avoiding "hot spots", which should be easy in a TAS, also skips text.
I come bearing a mighty gift...
The ultra rare OoT debug ROM (no no links and no giving it out here...)
But this is actually something that can only be experienced through emulation, and it though I don't think a run can come from it, this is something I am sure a lot of people will want to see...and perhaps something cool utilizing TAS stuff can be created...
FYI - I don't plan on really working on a TAS of this game, I'm just here to give ideas and help out. It's hard enough making the real thing...the amoun of time and effort to make a TAS of this is going to be incredible and strenuous.
BTW - I'd prefer a non-crooked cart run, it would have just been cool to see how quickly the game could be beat with all things said.
Since I don't have a way to do any speed runs for well over a month, I figured I'd give this a gander.
First of all, is there anyway to reproduce the "Crooked Cart" trick on the emulator, or a way to access the debug mode? I want to know because you can sequence break the game badly by skipping stuff.
Other key areas of interest:
Skipping the Gerudo's Fortress - Get caught or hookshot up to the jail cell. Get to the ledge of the exit of the cell, face right and try to roll with hover boots to the rock structure (towards desert gate). Get caught on it or to a place you can use C-items, use longshot to grapple the flag pole beyond the gate. You now bypassed opening the gate.
Acryte's Text Skips - Certain texts are triggered by stepping on certain areas. Backflips, button mashing, or damage boosts can bypass many of these. I do some in my 4:57 run.
Acryte's Advanced Deku Tree Bugs/Tricks - Acryte has some tricks that may be worth exploiting in at least the Deku Tree, such as timing damage boosts on the rotating Skulltulas on the vine wall.
My Jabu-Jabu's Belly Bugs - You can reach the Zora's Sapphire without Ruto at the start with a perfectly aimed Jump Slash Jump down the middle hole in the room above and hitting the electric "pillar" so it flings you onto the egde of the high platform with the tunnel to the Sapphire room. The trouble is triggering Bigocto to come down.
Boundary Violations - You can exit the boundaries of dungeons and areas almost everywhere, but most end up having you swim in invisible water, then falling to your death. There may be a way to exploit this, thoug, as you can pass back through in-bounds through solid objects.
Fierce's Young Link Gold Scale Bug - You can get the Gold Scale as Young Link, allowing you to enter Zora's Domain earlier and doing Jabu-Jabu before Dodongo's Cavern. Since we can get the fish as fast as possible now, it may be worth a look on a TAS.
My ammended Adult Route -
Graveyard (Shield/Hookshot)
Ice Cavern via Deku Leaf Shortcut to get Iron Boots and Serenade of Water
Travel to Forest Temple to learn Minuet of Forest
Serenade of Water warp to Lake Hylia
Enter Water Temple
Get Longshot (Hook ascent + advanced Dark Link sword fight), set Farore's Wind in Longshot chest room
Go to Gerudo Valley
Complete Gerudo's Fortress
Go to Spirit Temple and learn Requiem of Spirit
Minuet of Forest Warp to Forest Temple
Complete Forest Temple (Longshot will make you not need Farore's Wind, plus new sequence breaks)
Go to Lost Woods, warp to Goron City
Scale Death Mountain
Longshot to Fire Temple, skipping Tunic and Bolero of Fire
Complete Fire Temple
Scale down mountain, go to Temple of Time
Get Prelude of Light
Warp Back in Time
Get Din's Fire
Requiem of Spirit warp to Desert
Complete Young Link Spirit Temple
Prelude of Light Warp to Temple of Time
Go forward in time
Requiem of Spirit warp to Desert
Complete Adult Spirit Temple
Re-enter Spirit Temple
Farore's Wind warp back to Water Temple
Get two keys, Serenade of Water warp outside, Re-enter
Complete Water Temple
Prelude of Light
Walk to Kakariko
Learn Nocturne of Shadow
Nocturne of Shadow warp to Shadow Temple
Complete Shadow Temple
Prelude of Light warp to Temple of Time
Ganon's Castle
Yeah, unfortunately the Cel-shading is courtesy of a plugin. With playback, people would need the ROM they made (they're editing one) plus all plugins.
And keep dreaming for video recording. The amount of processing power to handle what you saw above alone is beyond most PCs unless you've got a great video card. Add on processing power to handle the video capturing without frame loss...at high quality bit rates...
It's still a ways off for practical consumers like myself...who don't have thousands to spend (I think 2K or less is what a PC should be, and high end gaming PCs run 3-6K).
That mature enough looking?
