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Radiant wrote:
In the interest of clarity:
Looking at a random publication, it has download buttons for "A/V file" (which actually means "MKV") and "A/V file compatibility" (which actually means "MP4").
People know what an MP4 is. People don't know what "compatibility" means if you don't specify what it's compatible with. I've never seen the term "A/V file" used anywhere outside this site. I mean I get it, it means "audiovisual", but there is a common term for audiovisual files and that is "movie". I would strongly prefer to label these buttons "MP4 movie" and "MKV movie" instead of using unnecessary jargon.
Don't worry about that, I already have a suggestion in store. I'm just waiting for the torrents and the mkv to be removed, then I'll try convince the site developers to introduce my ideas, little by little. There may be need for some negotiation with some other devs.
Edit: BTW, the rating buttons are probably going to remain where they are. We'll talk about them after renovating the rating system.
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I have admit you're right. Indeed, Showcase sounds much better than Misc, since Moons still has the main feature of wanting to be entertaining. I'm not entirely convinced, but so far sounds like a very good pick.
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All right, let's postpone this for later. By the way, I also like the name Playground for the new tier/class/space.
I never really thought of suggesting a name that consists of two words, as the "goal" part is just implied. In fact, a class, like for example Standard class, is just a set of goals.
Just a note before I forget: today a post from Spike game me a great idea for a replacement to Moons name: Miscellaneous (or Miscellanea). I think it perfectly gives the idea of a set of goals that can be literally anything (as long as they're different than Standard class goals).
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I understand that the infos that I'm about to bring were easy to miss due to technical reasons. However, since there has been a lot of work and expectations behind this submission, I would still not label it as a "meme category" or say that it should be an "April Fools joke". With that said, let's get to some clarifications:
It's true that the current movie rules page tells that the usage of in-game cheats "are only allowed to access harder difficulties and/or bonus content" and also that "You are not allowed to skip levels with passwords", however it must be noted that there are some more details that used to be there that where removed recently, not because they were intentionally abolished, but because they got accidentally lost while rewriting the rules text in order to make it easier to read. You can still still access the full text of the previous rules page version here: Wiki: MovieRules/Legacy.
Specifically, there are two parts of that page that I'd like everyone here to give some attention, see parts I've underlined:
No skipping to the end with a password
The point is to demonstrate how quickly a game could be beaten if the player had superhuman abilities; skipping major sections of it with a password defeats the purpose.
We allow playing unlockable content using in-game passwords
Using in-game codes[1] or passwords at the start of a game is allowed if it uses a built-in hard mode or if it makes cosmetic changes to the game, as long as parts of the game are not skipped.
Using in-game codes or passwords at the start of a game to unlock a special game mode, character, level sets, or otherwise play the game in some unusual way is allowed.
Any actually intended change will be included in this page: Wiki: MovieRules/History, and since there is no mention about changes for in-game cheats and passwords, it's fair to assume that spirit of the relative rules should be intended as still following their previous purpose. Specifically:
The purpose of the rule is forbidding to skip to the end, or otherwise major sections of the game; in this submission instead what is skipped is just the item requirements for unlocking each of the 4 bosses.
Using in-game cheats or passwords is allowed for "playing the game in some unusual way", which clearly refers to the chance of being accepted for Moons, if it results in enough movie differences than any%, 100%, and No Major Skips. This submission does in fact showcase completely different gameplay routes in every level, as in fact already noted by the author.
For these reasons, I see that this submission is perfectly worthy of being given a chance to be considered for publication, and even if it wasn't the case, it would still deserve to go through a fair judging process and leave room for the author and the community to discuss opinions and suggestions about the rules.
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I agree that we should trust judges, but on the other hand we can't expect trust from the whole community. For that reason, the waiting time can help to avoid creating doubts, and more importantly, it gives more dignity to the submissions, as both accepting or rejecting too fast may make it look like the judge didn't care, one way or another.
Also, in my opinion, the waiting time gives more room for the community to share their opinion about the fate of the submission. Giving a verdict too soon may create the idea that the opinion of the community doesn't matter for shaping the rules or pointing out possible judging mistakes (which may happen even to the best human, eventually). The fact that a judgement can be changed after being delivered isn't enough to shake off this impression completely, or for everyone.
Another important reason in my opinion, is giving a reasonable amount of time for the author and the community to provide movie improvements.
I don't see reasons why waiting can be bad, and I see only benefits for it, so my vote is 7 days. I'm aware that it's a bit extreme, and I don't expect many people to feel the same.
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So, for testing reasons, the mandatory waiting time before judging a submission was accidentally brought from 3 days to just 1 hour, and after judging a submission in the record time of little more than 3 hour, a discussion spawned about what should be a proper waiting time.
So, please put your vote to this poll and explain your reasoning with a comment.
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Spikestuff wrote:
I honestly don't know why the Judging limit was changed drastically to below 24 hours.
You're lucky you don't have speedy Publishers at the moment but a discussion, or something should be made at the very least.
Even like the potential chance that with the new tools that there's hidden room for improvement.
EZGames69 did grab what I do recall from the conversation from 2015 in IRC about this about the hidden improvement but even then, that was too quick of a turnaround from the Judge.
I don't think there is much to be concerned about this specific submission, but I agree with Spike, there should be at very least 24 hours of mandatory waiting before delivering a judgement, or even better, putting it back to 72 as it was before. Actually, I remember that about one year ago I suggested making it longer, up to 1 week.
feos wrote:
I always used to overshoot with waiting and with doing things steadily and properly, but that in turn results in other problems. Judging becomes a boring routine task that you have to overwork to get right. Which leads to having less energy on it over time, and here we are, at 11 unclaimed movies in the queue, and 12 judging underway.
As long as the spirit of the decision is correct, we have to reduce overworking to get some energy back, and to be more productive. As the rules are steadily getting more forgiving, potential minor mistakes should be less of a deal if the decision is correct in nature. I'll ask what other judges think about this.
It's not like having a longer grace period forces you to work more, it's actually the opposite: you can take it easier and distribute working better. Also, it creates less working expectations to burden on the judges, since having a shorter waiting time could leave room for some people to expect the job being done faster.
The ADSL connection at my server allows for about 56 kB/s of upload speed [1]. Some of it must be reserved for the web server, so let's say 30 kB/s can be allocated for the AVI file transfers.
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ThunderAxe31 wrote:
I know there are already plans to change the name of Moons into something else. This is necessary in order to avoid confusion with how it used to work until its function was changed from being a tier to being a class of movie goals.
Just as a little reminder for people that didn't follow the change: now Moons doesn't indicate superior entertainment value than anything else, instead it just indicates a movie goal that doesn't belong to Standard, whose are fastest completion, full completion, and beat the game without major skip glitching.
I think we should come up with a name that makes it clear that indicates the opposite concept of a Standard goal. My best idea is to call them "Alternative goals", as it implies that they're different from the norm. Some other possibilities could be: Additional goals, Exotic goals, Unconventional goals, Atypical goals.
feos wrote:
Probably first we need to figure out what the Demo class will be (named).
No. That should not be considered as a matter that could affect how the Moons class should be renamed. It should be only be decided in function of what is the nature of the Moons class itself, and not what the nature of a separate class is, especially if that class doesn't yet exist and probably won't any time soon.
So please, consider my idea of giving a more appropriate name for Moons class. We need to make it clear that Moons is not an entertainment tier anymore, and as soon as possible.
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scrimpeh wrote:
It feels like we should have a rerecording-capable simulator for the PICO-8 itself by now. Oh well. I've been waiting for a TAS of Celeste Classic, and I really appreciated watching this. Very good work throughout. It seemed like all of the obstacles were more like suggestions.
I agree. It should be relatively easy to embed PICO-8 inside BizHawk.
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feos wrote:
Simon's rating is rather solid, even though feedback in the submission thread mentioned that it still looked repetitive, just short enough not to get bored. I think this movie looks crazier. Is there a way to play some other mode as Simon? What are people's opinions on obsoleting Simon?
Personally I think, if we're going for Simon as a separate branch, he really needs to do something different to showcase why he's a great char. Ideally he would avoid this spam attack, so some tactics could be involved and the spirit of the original game could shine. Then it would make perfect sense to have him as a separate movie by regular Moons principles. Until then, I would obsolete Simon.
My first thought after watching this movie is that it should obsolete the Simon movie. The two movies are similar, however this submission is both faster and (in my opinion) more entertaining.
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My only issue with the game is the trivial gameplay. There is only one input that needs to be optimized, and it's the last jump, and that also doesn't affect real time completion anyway.
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No. Grinding is part of the TAS, and it needs to be as fast as possible. Try to manipulate RNG in order to get the encounters as soon as possible, and getting only the kind of enemies that give more exp points.
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feos wrote:
Arcade machines have a lot of variations and some of them are similar to home consoles, but labeling each arcade machine differently will result in complete mess IMO. Having all VS games as Arcade makes the most sense to me, and then they can be linked from the NES version runs.
I have to agree. The names of most arcade machines are too much obscure for the general audience, so it makes sense to go with a more general naming.
Edit: BTW, the rating buttons are probably going to remain where they are. We'll talk about them after renovating the rating system.