Being on Atari is not a free pass to be be uninteresting or badly programmed either. If this was on any other system besides Atari, I really couldn't see it being accepted, and it's not like some of the early PC (Apple 2?) games that have come up are any better in terms of the aesthetics or entertainment either.
The core of my message, which is explained better and going into more discussion and detail in the link that jlun2 posted, is that it's not about entertainment.
Allow me to put it more coarsely.
I don't want my ability to find a game TAS inhibited by what -other- people decide is entertaining or not.
I would like to take a moment once again to clarify my thoughts. I did only just make this account when the Atari TASing just entered but I have felt this way for quite some time.
This site, at it's core, is about TASing. Tool Assisted Speedrun/Superplay. There was at some point in the past a video of a SMB3 TAS that was posted without that info and passed off as 'real' to a lot of people. This lead to a bit of a stigma about 'cheaters' playing games and as such the shift in TASing went towards explicitly stating what they are, their intentions, and how they work. TAS videos still have comments of 'cheaters' or 'hackers' in their games but people still TAS and people watch TAS videos for the entertainment.
What is entertainment defined as? What a person finds entertaining, obviously. Deeper, it is something to which supplies a person with amusement, fun, a diversion for a short time that they found enjoyable. Entertainment is also highly subjective in that what one person hates with a burning passion, another may find to be the most euphoric experience.
What I have never found fully understood on this site is the following: at what point do we begin to state that a TAS, which technically great and entertaining to only a small niche because the majority deems they're too trite and boring? My dad wouldn't watch Super Mario 64. It's lost on him. Does this mean that video should be removed due to lack of entertainment value? Not everyone will find it entertaining however it is a great baseline of a game the majority of internet age users will have played.
As an older gamer I played the Atari 2600, Vectrex, Intellivision and Coleco Vision before the NES was a platform was even known in the west. I have enjoyed all three Atari TASes that have been submitted so far and I appreciate those who have done them. I have seen normal gameplay of the games, played them myself, and now can watch TAS videos should anyone take the time to do so.
To surmise what I am trying to say, allow me to throw it in a view quotable bullet points
-Are we going to reject things that some may like only because they're not entertaining to the masses?
-Are we going to ignore technical TAS merit or system limitations because they do not offer stimulating music, sound, or video?
-Are we going to determine at some point, entertainment is MORE VALUABLE then actual technical quality and speed, and start letting a video that is 30 frames shorter be viewed because it is much more 'enjoyable' to view?
-Is this site not about "Tool Assisted Speed" over all other things? Should we continue to vote on entertainment on something that started as being about the fastest inhumanely possible completions?
Once more, I do thank anyone who took the time to read this. If I were to vote, I would vote hesitant yes on this video for technical quality and abstain from voting on entertainment. I am an individual. My opinion of entertainment does not match everyone's nor should it ever be used as a yard-stick or metric by which a game succeeds or fails to be published. There will always be someone wishing to see even the worst possible game choice ever.
this is one of two games for a new system to TAS that I would LOVE to see be TASed. Yet the best of the system is being voted as boring, uninteresting and not worth the time.
I think there's only one person who suggested that Atari games are all boring. Other people have been suggesting Atari games like Custer's Revenge, Pitfall and Pitfall II that would make good games for entertaining runs. This game and E.T. definitely do not represent the best games for the system.
I understand what you mean and I did use an overly large blanket. I have seen a lot of videos in my years lurking go to the wayside on the fact they were boring. The site needs to determine if they want to be a site dedicated to "Tool-assisted superplay movies" or if they're going to try to show only TAS videos that are interesting to a wider-base of non-TAS viewers.
As far as the Atari 2600, Pitfall 2 has it's own sound chip in the cartridge which allowed to to have the catchy music that was in it and it is possibly ripe for TAS. Pitfall 1 has a timer that cannot be sped up to my knowledge. Without a good case of game-breaking glitch, I can't see how it would be a good TAS. Custer's Revenge is a pornography Atari game where you have sex with a bound indian.
As far as other games that Atari may have that would TAS really well would be perhaps the ever-famous Adventure. There aren't a good number of games though that have solid roots. Could we determine that maxing out the score is qualification for ending a TAS, as there have been plays of Tetris with "maxes out the score" as qualifications.
Vanguard may be interesting to see or the Swordquest series if they're breakable. Centipede or Milipede if we put a score they're trying to reach or just trying to get to a certain level I suppose. Pole Position, just clear a race and call that good? Haunted house was mentioned and I do think that is good. We could also see Dig Dug or Gaunted House. Mr. Do, Smurfs, Burgetime?
Fact is, there are lots of games and I am sure I can't even remember all the games that would make great games to see TASd when you get right down to it. Boxing would be interesting though it's time limited. It was great in it's day yet it's another I do have to admit would be less than stellar without breaking the game in some way.
Another thing to think about, and I am not a TAS person so keep me honest, wouldn't these games with tiny bits of code be less prone to full out game-breaking as it feels like TAS has evolved into compared to before? With small code-base, they're usually more tightly knit due to the fact they had to conserve space down to the level of characters saved here and there. Maybe that opens up new possibilities?
Regardless, I am sure that the people who have put their blood, sweat, and tears into TASVideos and making such are the ones who need to answer what they want best for the site. A site dedicated to displaying in some way any TAS that has technical merits for the game, regardless of how boring it is due to the game itself, or a site about the art of TASing where one can subjectively decide if something should stay or go.
Cheers,
-Tinari
Hello. I have been a lurker of TASVideos for an extremely long time now (About 5 years I think) and this discussion of this system catches my eye enough that I wanted to register so I could speak my mind.
I have always enjoyed watching TAS videos of games I have played, regardless of how poor the game is or how it lacked entertainment value. I have perused the Gruefood Delight section to watch games that are listed in it because they appealed to me.
I can certainly understand that the purpose of this site is to post only cream of the crop, quality entertainment TAS runs that the lay-person can enjoy and as such you have a voting process that determines both the entertainment value and the technical quality of what the person has pulled off.
However it seems like everyone who votes on these things are either gamers or TASers and in a way that probably makes some of you less qualified to actually judge the true entertainment value of these games. I have tried to show some non-gamer friends from work the Super Mario 64 BLJ videos and they just kind of stare for a bit and nod and say "Oh, neat." and do something else. Super Mario 64, considered one of the star videos of this site and I can call upon at minimum three non-gamer friends who found it boring and at least two gamer friends who never played the game and quit watching before long.
It is difficult to determine exactly what is entertaining about a run. Most of the runs with high entertainment value are the games that are popular, varied in execution but also very well played by many people. I find that the more niche games that some people may enjoy to do and watch would be voted down on entertainment value by sheer fact that it may very well BE boring to watch yet to anyone who has ever played it they may find it the most entertaining thing they've seen.
When a person is introduced to TASing and wants to come to this site to watch TASes of games, are they here to only watch what the TASVideo Voting Staff has deemed to be "acceptably entertaining" or do you think they'll come here and look for games that they personally know, love and want to see? I can tell you that I found this run very entertaining as it is a game I have played and suffered at. I also found ET very entertaining and I have played it.
I understand what Gruefood Delight is and I know if a game isn't in one of the sections I can always go there to see if maybe the game is hiding in this unknown section of the site that most people would have to stumble upon and wouldn't understand what's there and why, so I have to ask everyone who votes and runs the process on the site this simple question.
When you vote a game as not entertaining and don't publish it, do you think a person who has played the game and wants to see a TAS of it understands why the game he wants to see isn't and will never show up? He likely doesn't read submissions or forums or rules. He comes in, looks up videos for games he wants to see and that is that.
I am sorry that I used this spot for such a long post but this is one of two games for a new system to TAS that I would LOVE to see be TASed. Yet the best of the system is being voted as boring, uninteresting and not worth the time. I say that to me, anything I want to watch is worth my time, regardless what anyone else votes it as.
Thank you if you read it all.
-Tinari