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Great to hear! Best ending it is!
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I'm a little unsure how generous I should be with the Rainbow considering it might or might not be decisive for the final fight with Mecha Santa. Were I not to consider about him, it would certainly help out using it for the turrets. Though I would also have to consider the fact that after I shoot with the Rainbow, I won't be able to fire anything else for the next 8 frames. This also means no speed swapping weapons in order to fire the Rainbow more often. For now I feel I'd rather be safe than sorry.
The barrels would probably help me out a bit, though I'm not sure how much of a difference it would've made anyway considering the sheer amount of enemies I'll be facing. It could very well make no difference at all short of visual effects, but do you feel it's unprofessional of me not to make use of every little timesaver? ...or actually it could even be faster to remove them since all elves are now nicely gathering around me for me to piledrive them, clearing up bigger groups much faster. I haven't tested with keeping the barrels around, though do you think it's worth trying? I might just end up saving time from minor optimization alone anyway.
Anyhow thanks for your professionally made paint maps! :) I've tried to find some myself as well without any luck, so these should help out. And I'll also try to continue with my encodes so you won't have to rewatch the .WTF file all the time, but I understand you'd probably want to take a closer look at what's happening in this mayhem. Personally I've not had any problems with playing back my files nor with savestates, so it might be because of Windows 7 who's not cooperating.
Just so I'll know for sure, I've been intending to do the Secret Santa stage in order to get the best ending since I feel a difficulty like this deserves that kind of ending. So I wish to check if people would approve of this detour for the best ending category?
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To be fair, you have to be as far down as possible before you grab them since I'm not sure if this was even intended to be possible. For this TAS I throw them at the last possible frame just so I'll land two frames sooner, but there should be about five frames for you to hit the boss, depending on how far down you can grab the turret that is. You should not go diagonally either since you won't get as far down compared to going straight down.
This should save time since it'll take about 64 frames from grabbing to throwing and landing again. That's a total of 20 damage (12 for getting rid of the turret and 8 on the boss) which would've taken ~80 frames from just shooting them normally with Brick... not too much time saved when you consider it, but it's still cool!
Speaking of bosses by the way, I don't know how well known it is, but you can actually shoot the elf on the first boss before he moves back behind the cannon, immediately getting rid of that threat with just one shot before the fight even begins. I was considering doing it myself when I fought it, but decided people would rather want to see how nasty the bosses can get on this difficulty than that the elf is killable. I'm also saving 4 frames from not wasting a shot on him as well. :)
Stage 2 is finished now as well actually, with loads of piledrives when the situation starts to look grim and some fancy shooting in between. With this stage I also discovered there's actually a cap on how many enemies may be on screen at once. When the cap is reached, more enemies just won't spawn until I kill off some of them. You won't be able to see it here yet as this was something I just discovered when I was messing around.
Here's the link to the latest .WTF file for anyone who wish to watch it. I'll really try to see if I can get a decent enough encode for everyone else to watch sometime soon.
http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/11761786865506540EDIT:
Here's a much higher quality encode of the two current stages.
Link to video
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It works! You just grab one of the upper turrets, fly straight down and throw it at the boss doing 8 damage to him. If this actually saves time or not I'll have to time and see. You don't get too many frames to activate your piledrive, so it won't be easy to do real time. The lower turrets seem to be too far away to be used unfortunately.
I haven't looked into if I can somehow hide within his ring of spikeballs yet though, but I'll certainly investigate it as well.
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Aw, that's a shame you can't remove those projectiles. Oh well, I'll just have to find another way.
The Ice shoots 1*0.5 the first two frames, then 2*0.5 the next three frames, not two. That should be 1.5 damage every 5 frames, which is 0.3 damage/frame. I guess I didn't explain it correctly.
If I throw on the first possible frame, it'll take just as long as the piledriver would. Otherwise it'll take longer depending on when I throw them, though throwing them lets me reach enemies I wouldn't reach otherwise. Of course its preferable to piledrive them normally, though sometimes it doesn't really matter when enemies are still spawning after I've cleaned up the room.
Speaking of the piledrives, I have to use it a HELLA LOT if I wish to survive at this difficulty, which makes me wonder how entertaining it would be to watch me do hundreds of piledrives over and over. Of course there'll be some variations to the best of my ability, but I believe most rooms will be watching me piledrive enemies for half the game.
I've also almost cleared Stage 2. Just the last room before the boss, where I'll have to fight elves which spawns from four different exits for 25 seconds. Fun times!
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I've run through the first stage again and improved it by ~46 seconds compared to my last run. 12.5 seconds saved from skipping both the title screen and the intro, and 33.5 seconds from choosing a different path. I've noticed that since this difficulty greatly increases the amount of enemies that spawn, going to rooms which has enemies that always spawn at a fixed rate (like the trains) will take longer to clean up, so I'll have to avoid such rooms.
About Mecha Santa, I think I might know why he's "impossible." Given the image Billy Johnson shown us and which attack Mecha Santa is using, he'll throw out full rows of projectiles and if you try to piledrive block them, he'll continue to shoot his Artic Thunder which can't be blocked. I won't know until I finally reach him, but I believe I should be able to use my Ice weapon to remove the projectiles instead. And if I still have to try and kill him before he kills me, I'll actually get an extra life for every stage I finish, the only courtesy the game will give you apart from 8 Ice and Rainbow and full health at the beginning of a new stage. So you'll actually get a total of 3 extra lives before you fight him.
A little side discovery that every second time Ice fires, it shoots two projectiles for two frames instead of only one. That should mean it actually does 0.3 damage/frame. So it should be useful for bosses as well.
No encode at the moment, but I'll look into making one later on. Here's the .WTF file for anyone who's curious and wish to try and play it back yourself.
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Truncated wrote:
In other words:
I thought enemies you piledrived/threw into were destroyed, but I guess I just haven't hit big enough enemies.
Not quite exact. The sled in the third room has 12 hp, so I can't destroy it just by piledriving into it, which is why I had to shoot it a few times first. Of course I could just piledrive the sled itself instead, but it all depends on which is the fastest.
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-Yes, it's possible to skip the title screen, and it actually is faster to turn off the intro compared to pressing escape. I didn't consider it at first, but decided not to do anything about it when I made this playthrough. Although I could just redo the first stage to remove these simple mistakes anyway.
-The presents, as far as Stage 1 is concerned, only gives you 1000 score and nothing else. As expected of this difficulty. Could always shoot them with the Rainbow just to get them, though that means less ammo to fight everything else. Speaking of which...
-In values:
--The Brick does 1 damage and shoots every four frames in a straight line.
--The Rainbow does 3 damage and shoots every nine frames in a straight line, ricocheting off any wall twice.
--The Ice does 0.5 damage and shoots every two frames as a short-range flamethrower, destroying any simple projectile in its path without being destroyed itself in the process.
--Piledriving something into an enemy does 8 damage, while the enemy you piledrive is destroyed. It even works on bigger enemies as well.
The Rainbow is useful for strong enemies and enemies beyond normal reach. I'd say bosses are my best target for them unless I need to get rid of any pesky enemy. The Ice is actually quite useful when you fight really weak enemies as it can kill them in one shot, the spinners mainly that I know of. The robot elves has 1 hp unfortunately, so they require two shots. No faster than using Bricks. Or actually a bit slower as I'd have to time in two hits then. Although it could also be useful to clear up projectiles when needed. Of course you have to be careful not to waste any considering you have to go through four/five stages before you fight Mecha Santa.
If it's actually true you can't win the fight with Mecha Santa, then I guess there's nothing you can do. But I'll try to reach him and see for myself what makes him so impossible. If it's just specific attacks you can't dodge, then maybe you can manipulate them not to appear, but I'll have to reach him first. Although if it's just a matter of defeating him before he defeats me, I probably should save up on my Rainbow ammo until the end.
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I'm actually trying to see if I can finish this game on "Reallyjoel's Mom difficulty," TASing it on my Windows XP laptop. And I've finished stage 1 already, with no "unlockable shutters" as yet. Although I have no idea if one might appear later on. I can also mention this difficulty is close to impossible to finish outside of TAS.
I probably won't make a serious TAS of this myself as the level of optimization you can do in this game is ridiculous high, but at least it'll be a semi-serious TAS playthrough with no damage taken and making all attacks hit (which I kinda botched already, but oh well...).
Here's an encode on the first stage to show how ridiculous this game is on the highest difficulty. Crap quality youtube video unfortunately. Maybe I should look into making better encodes again? Or maybe just put up the encode itself on mediafire or something if anyone would want it (though 110 MB for a 3 minute video is a bit much).
Link to video
"An artist who can’t take constructive critique on their work is only hurting themselves and their potential.
Conversely, and artist that can’t communicate a critique in a constructive way isn’t helping anybody."
"An artist who can’t take constructive critique on their work is only hurting themselves and their potential.
Conversely, and artist that can’t communicate a critique in a constructive way isn’t helping anybody."
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Thanks! The reason why i included more than once is just to show those areas can be accessible through normal means; The white rows are the ones you should go by, and all green/red adjacent squares are the ones accessible from that area. Also yeah, I can understand it looks a bit messy, but it was the best idea I thought of. Mayhap if I included where each of these rows began would make it more readable? Though I can understand it myslef, so it's good enough for me at least.
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OpenTyrian also works both with and without mouse imput, and you can run it on Hourglass. Although you might not be able to playback it completely correctly, it should be enough for this purpouse.
http://code.google.com/p/opentyrian/
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Heyho! I've finally finished the map of all areas (except Hell Temple, Maze of Galious, and Legendary Tree), so now you can see where each area will lead to if you glitch through the ceiling and the floor. I haven't actually found a way to glitch through the floor normally, but I decided to include them so you can see how each area is structured. The way I've made these is I've placed them in rows with rooms above, below and at the side (for the few rooms you can actually glitch through the side), colouring the rooms you can reach normally green, the ones you have to glitch through to reach red and the rows themselves white.
As solairflaire theorized, the rooms do indeed normally wrap from top to bottom. Many areas can be reached in a "logical" order both through the ceiling and the floor, though certain areas like Chamber of Birth doesn't like to follow this logical order. Well... some kind of logical order so to speak.
Link here for those who's curious or wants a copy of their own:
http://www.mediafire.com/download/r8eyqqnob1y9eie/La-Mulana%2C_Wall_glitch_maps.rar
Now I can begin making some serious route plans. :)
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Quick update!
Sages:
After some extra testing with various possibilities I can now confirm you can skip at least two of the Sages. The only ones I haven't found a way to skip yet is Giltorriyo in Spring in the Sky in order to activate the Mantras, and Fobous in Dimensional Corridor, in order to acquire the BIRTH and DEATH spells for the Medicine. You don't need to talk either to Alsedarna or Samaranta to fight the final boss. You'd normally need to speak to them as well in order to progress, but you can glitch through the walls and reach the areas they would've opened up anyway.
Dragon Bone:
Also I actually found out a way to access the True Shrine of the Mother without the Dragon Bone. If you try to normally glitch through the ceiling you'll just reach the normal Shrine, but if you glitch up in between the two symbols where the ladder up should be you'll reach the True Shrine instead. Of course you have to defeat all eigh Guardians before this happens.
Although you can reach the True Shrine you're stuck in either the Death Seal or Map room, which means you have to glitch through the wall again in order to continue. Only the Death Seal room is accessible with this way though.
Magatama Jewel/Wedge:
The Medicine is still required in order to finish the game, so the Magatama and Wedge is still required. Thankfully I've found a way to acquire the Wedge despite it also having the same damage shield that's around the Crystal Skull. If you just jump where the chest is and fall down right as you defeat Nu Wa, you'll be able to pick up the Wedge right before the damage shield pushes you away. Just standing still won't work as you get pushed away before it becomes available. I still haven't found a way to acquire the Magatama Jewel yet unfortunately.
About the maps you're talking about... I've though of doing something like that myself, but never started with it yet. I might just do it since having a complete map of where every room leads to will help with routing quite a lot.
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I must admit I've been lazy the last few weeks, but I have explored the game some with the help of Potentializing's Cheat Engine tablet. Although I haven't finshed exploring the possibilities I have discovered a few things which is required to win the game.
Fake Hand Scanner/Dragon Bone:
Unfortunately you really have to get these in order to reach the True Shrine of the Mother. Granted you can reach the normal Shrine of the Mother without them, but in order to actually reach the True Shrine you have to climb up/down into the area. Just zipping through the walls won't trigger the change. As a matter of fact zipping through the walls after the True Shrine has been triggered actually takes you to the normal Shrine of the Mother instead. Though of course you can wait with getting them until it's a good time for it.
Crystal Skull:
So far I haven't found a way to access the Dimensional Corridor without it so you must get it. Interestingly you must also remove the fog in Twin Labyrinth, or else the entrance won't appear.
Eye of Doom, or whatever it's actually called:
Although it's not necesary to kill it to finish the game, you have to kill it in order to reach the credits. During the escape cutscene you first escape into the Endless Corridor, but if there's no ladder there you'll get stuck, unable to reach the ending credits. So unless you're satisfied with just beating the game without reaching the credits, you have to kill it.
Magatama Jewel/Wedge:
I haven't investigated enough to see if they're really required, but you must have the Mulana Talisman in order to acquire them. Granted there might still be a way to access them without the Talisman, but they both got the same protective shield the Crystal Skull have so I'll have to figure it out somehow.
Mantras/Sages:
Same as the previous as I haven't investigated it enough yet. They're not supposed to be skipped, but I will see if it might be possible anyway.
Pepper/Treasure/Anchor:
They are not needed at all to finish the game, though any water/lava part will take longer to do without the Anchor.
Guardians:
You're supposed to kill them all but I haven't investigated in case the True Shrine of the Mother can be triggered while skipping some of them.
Weapons:
All main weapons are required since you need them for all of Mother's different forms. No sub-weapon is required (apart from a shield, but haven't investigated if it might be skipped as well), but they help you more than not getting them of course.
An interesting fact is you must have the Feather in order to beat the game, otherwise you won't be able to reach one of Mother's forms.
I haven't decided on any route changes yet, but as soon as I've confirmed whether any Guardians or Mantras and such can be skipped or not I'll be making a new route. I'll post any new discovery I make as well.
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Heya Quiz! We'll see if I'll be needing the Dragon Bone in the end anyway. We won't know for sure until I try to find another path. And the same with the Crystal Skull; although I just showed a video of me acquiring it, I haven't actually picked it up in my current playthrough yet so I should still be able to try and find an alternate entrance.
I must get all five weapons as well then, and probably the Container and Medicine as well. So far the game isn't keeping complete track of what you've acquired or not, so we'll see if it's required in the end. If I have to get it in the end anyway we'll see which Shield is the best choice.
So far by testing I only reach another part of the Twin Labyrinth if I go up at where the entrance to Dimensional Corridor is without the Crystal Skull. I'll definitely see if I might be able to somehow reach it anyway without it, though at least I have a quick strat to acquire it in case it's unskippable in the end. I can also "easily" access the as well Keyblade, so it shouldn't be any issue.
Heya Potentialing! Didn't expect to see you here as well. :)
So the Sages actually are required to reveal the final boss, and not just to reach certain areas or get two mantras... that's a shame. I can at least reach the final boss room without speaking to the Sage in Tower of the Goddess, but probably must speak to them anyway to win the game then.
We'll see about the Crystal Skull. Who knows? Maybe I might actually find a place where you can access Dimensional Corridor without it.
Shame you can't skip Shu, but at least I'll have the Ring by the time I'm fighting him so I'll at least be able to defeat him quicker. Unless I can manage to glitch myself into his room in order to use my axe on him instead.
Manipulating enemies in a resonable time will be a pain in this game, but it is possible. Also thanks for showing your cheat program. We'll see if I might be able to figure something out with it. I appreciate your input.
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So far I do not know of any path you can take to reach the Dimensional Corridor without getting the Crystal Skull, although I haven't investigated the possibility much yet. Though you need the Skull if you wish to use the normal route as it turns the ladder into the entrance when you get it. Also unfortunately you still can't enter the Shrine if you kill the Eyeball after already entering it. The Dragon Bone is really what's revealing the entrances to the Shrine.
Speaking of which I recently watched a speedrun of someone who's intentionally using cheats to beat the game ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OpS8sQRYw_k if anyone is interested), where he showed you can actually pick up items that are blocked if you can just reach them. With that realization I managed to do this...
Link to video
With all these skips I feel I have to figure out what's possible and not possible to skip. What I believe are the technical minimum requirements to reveal the final boss and beat the game are:
-Defeat all eight Guardians to reveal the True Shrine of the Mother.
-Acquire all Ankh Jewels and reveal all boss ankhs in order to defeat the Guardians.
-Acquire the four Seals in order to summon the final boss.
-Acquire the Keyblade in order to summon the final boss.
-Acquire the Wedge and Magatama Jewel in order to advocate the Mantras in order to summon the final boss.
What I don't know yet if it's technically required to win the game are:
-Talk to all four Sages.
-The Crystal Skull in order to reach the Dimensional Corridor.
I'll still be testing various areas to see where else you can access, but if anyone else has any ideas or suggestions feel free to ask them.
Edit: Not sure if the Dragon Bone is required for the Death Seal or not, or if it's possible to reach it some other way instead. I'll try and see if I can reach the Seal without the Bone.
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Link to video
Got a possible starting route for the Twin Labyrinth. Without the Twin Statues it becomes a challenge to find a good route, but thankfully I can manage to circle around in order to reach both sides of the area. Though can't do the same from the other side.
This might be changed when I do the final run.
Edit: So here's where you end up at if you continue up in the second part of the Twin Labyrinth.
Link to video
Unless it'll be required for anything specific, this means you can skip getting the Fake Hand Scanner and Dragon Bone, reducing how much money you need by 350. Although unless you can find more areas to enter the Shrine or fight the giant Eyeball in Endless Corridor, you'll have to go back into the Twin Labyrinth in order to access the Shrine again.
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Not much progress lately since I've been busy with stuff, but I do have this skip to show.
Link to video
Although it's actually sloped, you can still clip the corner connecting it. So it's possible to both enter and acquire the Ocarina, since apparently the game doesn't check to see if you actually have the Pregnant Lady Statue when you sleep in the "womb."
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So... I've finally discovered how the corner glitch works, the one where an enemy pushes you into a wall. Basically you have to fall down, facing the wall, and clip the bottom corner at an exact position just as an enemy hits you, pushing you to the right and into the wall.
The reason this works (as far as I've understood it) is when Lemeza is falling down facing right, his hitbox seems to be three pixels lower compared to when jumping up. Then when he clips the corner and gets hit, his normal hitbox is restored which means a part of his head is inside the wall. The game then tries to force him out of the wall by pushing him upwards, thus accidentally glitching you into the wall. Then you can just jump to get pushed a little further up, jump left to get pushed to the right and jump right to get pushed to the left.
So far this seems to only work on bottom left corners, Lemeza doesn't seem to clip into bottom right corners as he does with the left ones. Though it seems you can do it at any left corner where an enemy can reach you, so a lot of odd areas can be reached since you're actually not supposed to go up in certain areas.
The good thing is you don't need any specific item to do this glitch and can actually do it the moment you start a new game. The bad thing though is this is basically a pixel perfect, frame perfect trick (depending on where and how you try it... some places might have two pixels and two frames to succeed) which means it's very hard, if not impossible to do on a RTA Speedrun. Not to mention getting any enemy to hit you at the right moment in a resonable time is hard enough that even...
Maybe there's some other technical point I haven't thought of, but this works and I can replicate it at other areas, as long as the enemy will cooperate with me.
Edit: And with that do I give you this...
Link to video
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Getting the anchor earlier would speed falling through the lava. Although currently I lack enough spears to kill the "shield dude." Though with this I've been thinking of an alternate route to take in order to both acquire the necessary spears, flares and gold needed and hopefully speed things up overall. For example getting the Ring (allows one more of any projectile on the screen at once) before the "shield dude" and Video Hustler/Break Shot roms (increases dagger damage from 3 to 6) before Sakkit.
I'll have to see where I need to go first in order to acquire these, and what I have to do to reach them. I'll also see if the 100 gold pot can be included as well.
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I do believe not getting the Cross would actually be faster than getting it now that you mention it. I'll redo this WIP to exclude it and maybe improve some parts I think might be improvable as well.
Also what Toothache said about the cash route.
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Hey look, another WIP already.
So now I've aquired the Feather, allowing me to traverse much faster and more efficiently. I also get a good stock of weights and Spears to use, though I had to use some extra of them for Viy since I realized too late I used up too many Flares. Thankfully I didn't lose much time over it. Speaking of which, both Amphisbaena and Viy are defeated now, putting me at the halfway mark of defeated Guardians.
This WIP also shows some excellent examples of exploiting the long attack animation of my weapons.
Tough I don't know how many knows of this... at the end of this WIP, for half a second, you can see a red copy of yourself walking away. No idea who or why he's there, but he is.
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Derakon wrote:
I am curious, though -- in the Graveyard of the Giants at about 6:05, why did you walk backwards before jumping off that ledge?
I have to stop my velocity (due to ice physics) in order to jump up instead of forward. The ice is the reason why I run a lot more in this section too since jumping on it is slower.
I'll also think of other things to put annotations on.
"An artist who can’t take constructive critique on their work is only hurting themselves and their potential.
Conversely, and artist that can’t communicate a critique in a constructive way isn’t helping anybody."
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Link to video
I've made annotations to this WIP if you wish to know what's going on.
It could probably be faster to grab the Grapple Claw before going for Bahamut, but I'm not sure if I would've had enough health to survive that before getting the Life Jewel. And although I tried to, I couldn't one cycle Ellmac. One single flare is missing and he closes his mouth right after the second to last flare hits him. It might still be possible, but for now I'll leave it at two cycles.
Elevators are surprisingly cooperative this time, short of the first one in Temple of the Moon. And the reason why I can access the Axe before it has been opened I believe is because the boulder removed it I guess? The Gauntlets are skipped, which means I only make a quick visit at Graveyard of the Giants before continuing.
"An artist who can’t take constructive critique on their work is only hurting themselves and their potential.
Conversely, and artist that can’t communicate a critique in a constructive way isn’t helping anybody."
