Hello UnopenedClosure.
Just wondering if you were planning to submit this, or you are still updating the TAS.
My first R2 TAS was submitted, accepted and published about a year ago. I have a rework in progress now that has an extra minute+ of savings already, and I'll make the commentary/overlay vid off of that, but that'll be ready whenever it's ready.
The last WIP video I posted is below, although I've shaved an additional 25 seconds off since then
Link to video
TAS noob.
Completed:
Pokemon FireRed/LeafGreen Round 2
In Progress/Backlog:
Pokemon FireRed/LeafGreen Any% Reroute
Pokemon FireRed/LeafGreen Beat All Trainers
The Neverhood Any%
NES Monopoly 1 CPU Glitchless
I'm pretty sure that, even with god RNG, it's not possible to get a 2:44
Soooooo, about that...
I've been doing some rerouting since the TAS got published. I'm still going to go back and try to do a little bit of touch-ups on the postgame (I got lazy about optimizations after the five hundredth time working through Sevii), but the current time is 2:44:57.83
The main route changes are as follows:
Different shopping trip in Pewter, with trickle-down effects all the way to the very end of the run:
--bought an Escape Rope in Pewter
--skipped the Escape Rope and Max Ether in Rock Tunnel
--caught things in different sections due to completely different encounter RNG
--skipped one PP heal during Round 2
--different move usage during Round 2, including one extra Metronome on one of six options (Lance 2's Gyarados or Kingdra, or Champ 2's Heracross, Gyarados, Arcanine or Venusaur)
Different Sandshrew manip, leading into faster Misty fight (no more double-menu manip!!!)
Minor PP reroute in Rocket Hideout/Pokemon Tower to save one critical hit textbox
Picked up Rocket Hideout Max Ether and skipped Berry Forest Max Ether
Fixed movement in Koga's gym (vs. bad movement in the published run which was never caught during review, oops)
Large PP reroute from Sevii 1 through Rocket Warehouse, built around skipping the Vermilion Max Ether and teaching Blizzard earlier
Skipped talking to the Dotted Hole door before cutting it (thanks to the YouTube commenter who caught this, another oops)
Performed extra bikespinning in the postgame to skip one Repel menu
Better spinner RNG during the postgame
Of course, if anybody sees any potential further improvements, I'd love to hear feedback.
After I finish cleanup and optimization, the next steps will be to get the commentary/catch tracker video done before submitting (so that my motivation to do it doesn't run out like it did last time). Then, I finally (hopefully) get to move on from this category.
Link to video
TAS noob.
Completed:
Pokemon FireRed/LeafGreen Round 2
In Progress/Backlog:
Pokemon FireRed/LeafGreen Any% Reroute
Pokemon FireRed/LeafGreen Beat All Trainers
The Neverhood Any%
NES Monopoly 1 CPU Glitchless
Since you are no longer maining Totodile for the entire run, could you save time by manipping for lesser stats?
TAS noob.
Completed:
Pokemon FireRed/LeafGreen Round 2
In Progress/Backlog:
Pokemon FireRed/LeafGreen Any% Reroute
Pokemon FireRed/LeafGreen Beat All Trainers
The Neverhood Any%
NES Monopoly 1 CPU Glitchless
Even ignoring the 60 catch requirement (which is a pretty big thing to ignore), Any% and Round 2 are very different categories for several reasons. Off the top of my head:
-The money routing and shop routing are completely different
-Not getting the extra EXP in Sevii makes damage ranges after Blaine a little narrower in Any%
-The lack of Sevii EXP also means more Quick Claw procs are required late game in Any%
-The extra fights in Sevii completely change the PP routing (including which items do and do not get picked up) from Lavender Tower through Champion 1
-The stat thresholds required for Clefable's Attack and Special Attack are very different between the two categories:
-Any% requires 31 ATK and 28+ SPA
-R2 requires 30+ ATK and 30+ SPA
TAS noob.
Completed:
Pokemon FireRed/LeafGreen Round 2
In Progress/Backlog:
Pokemon FireRed/LeafGreen Any% Reroute
Pokemon FireRed/LeafGreen Beat All Trainers
The Neverhood Any%
NES Monopoly 1 CPU Glitchless
I love Pokémon TASes that use different mains than the RTA runs, and I especially love the possibility of shaking up the Gen 1 routing. Easiest Yes vote I’ve had in a while
GamesFan2000 wrote:
We switch from Squirtle to the adorable Clefable in Mt. Moon, and then to the mighty Tauros in the Safari Zone (those who TAS the Gen 1 remakes might want to take note).
The idea of main-switching midway through FRLG is not without merit, but I don’t know that Tauros is the answer. The remakes take away two of his biggest strengths: speed-based crit rate, and access to Fissure
TAS noob.
Completed:
Pokemon FireRed/LeafGreen Round 2
In Progress/Backlog:
Pokemon FireRed/LeafGreen Any% Reroute
Pokemon FireRed/LeafGreen Beat All Trainers
The Neverhood Any%
NES Monopoly 1 CPU Glitchless
Looks great! One small question:
Against the Koffing at the end of Slowpoke Well (about 21 minutes in), you've manipped it into using and hitting Poison Gas on you. I know that in other generations, the fastest option is usually for the computer to use a weak damaging move against you. Is that not the case here?
TAS noob.
Completed:
Pokemon FireRed/LeafGreen Round 2
In Progress/Backlog:
Pokemon FireRed/LeafGreen Any% Reroute
Pokemon FireRed/LeafGreen Beat All Trainers
The Neverhood Any%
NES Monopoly 1 CPU Glitchless
The highest level Goldeen/Seaking you can catch in the game is level 25/30 respectively, which is a far cry from the level 38/41 required to learn Waterfall with them. Leveling them up that much would take way more time and resources than it's worth, compared to the ~25-second detour of getting HM07 normally in Icefall Cave, and ~10 seconds of teaching Squirtle the HM.
In addition to those points, getting a Goldeen or Seaking requires getting and using one of the fishing rods, plus an extra trip to the PC for party management, both of which are longer side quests than HM07.
TAS noob.
Completed:
Pokemon FireRed/LeafGreen Round 2
In Progress/Backlog:
Pokemon FireRed/LeafGreen Any% Reroute
Pokemon FireRed/LeafGreen Beat All Trainers
The Neverhood Any%
NES Monopoly 1 CPU Glitchless
Maybe I missed it somewhere in the writeup, but was there a logic behind the specific order of obtaining the Pokémon?
TAS noob.
Completed:
Pokemon FireRed/LeafGreen Round 2
In Progress/Backlog:
Pokemon FireRed/LeafGreen Any% Reroute
Pokemon FireRed/LeafGreen Beat All Trainers
The Neverhood Any%
NES Monopoly 1 CPU Glitchless
Simple, effective, and makes a mockery of a broken game. Easy yes vote
TAS noob.
Completed:
Pokemon FireRed/LeafGreen Round 2
In Progress/Backlog:
Pokemon FireRed/LeafGreen Any% Reroute
Pokemon FireRed/LeafGreen Beat All Trainers
The Neverhood Any%
NES Monopoly 1 CPU Glitchless
The only question I have relates to the Round 2 Champion battle. Is it possible to get Tyranitar to come out any later to minimize the Sandstorm text boxes? Or failing that, is there any way to get Venusaur to come out earlier to possibly overwrite the Sandstorm with Sunny Day?
As far as I know, Champ 2 sends out Pokes based on whatever the AI determines to be the best answer to what you currently have out. So the only way to delay T-Tar's arrival would be to kill Alakazam with something other than Clefable.
Additionally, as mentioned at the end of the writeup, the Sandstorm damage actually helps with the very narrow crit-MK ranges on Gyarados, Aracnine and Venusaur
Without Sandstorm damage
Gyarados's HP is 244, crit Mega Kick cannot kill (max damage is 240)
Arcanine's HP is 237, crit Mega Kick is a 3/16 range
Venusaur's HP is 228, crit Mega Kick is a 2/16 range
With Sandstorm damage
Gyarados's HP is 229, crit Mega Kick is a 5/16 range
Aracnine's HP is 223, crit Mega Kick is a 9/16 range
Venusaur's HP is 214, crit Mega Kick is a 9/16 range
So the run would need to find one more Metronome kill on the Gyarados, since it can't be killed without the Sandstorm damage. IIRC the only Metronome options for Gyara would be a handful of crit Electric moves or a non-crit Thunder
TAS noob.
Completed:
Pokemon FireRed/LeafGreen Round 2
In Progress/Backlog:
Pokemon FireRed/LeafGreen Any% Reroute
Pokemon FireRed/LeafGreen Beat All Trainers
The Neverhood Any%
NES Monopoly 1 CPU Glitchless
What I am trying to say, is that the measurement used to measure SE as approximately 175 is not consistent with the measurement used to measure CH as approximately 79.
I see what you're saying now. I ran a test more similar to the Caterpie test and got results like what you are describing. On Tower Rival's Growlithe, I ran tests using Mega Kick and Water Pulse (these move names have different lengths, but we can subtract 2 from the WP number to correct for that):
Rival's Growlithe, 58 HP, Mega Kick
A pressed to select move at 222034
F printed at frame 222291
222291 - 222034 = 257 frames
Rival's Growlithe, 58 HP, super effective Water Pulse
A pressed to select move at 222035
F printed at frame 222381
222381 - 222035 = 346 frames
346 - 257 - 2 = 87 frames
Because the lengths of the text boxes change throughout the run depending on the lag, I updated the submission description to omit specific numbers. That will hopefully avoid confusion.
UnopenedClosure wrote:
I think you might be right, but I will go back and take a look at this. If it indeed saves time, I will attempt to rework that section. However, since pretty much everything after the HM07 pickup is spinner manips, crit manips and Metronome manips, that hypothetical timesave may get gobbled up anyway
I gave this a look, and the movement change saved 98 frames. Unfortunately, it put the RNG in a slightly worse state, so I lost a lot of time to spinner passing, then recovered some of it in the E4 by talking to them from different sides and finding a different kill on Agatha's Misdreavus. Overall, I saved 90 frames on the new video in my userfiles (http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/71288092730064992). Can the judges please use that new video, as it outdates the current file in this submission
TAS noob.
Completed:
Pokemon FireRed/LeafGreen Round 2
In Progress/Backlog:
Pokemon FireRed/LeafGreen Any% Reroute
Pokemon FireRed/LeafGreen Beat All Trainers
The Neverhood Any%
NES Monopoly 1 CPU Glitchless
If you're timing up to "Foe DRAGONITE fainted!", then you're including Dragonite's cry in there as well. Without the cry, I think it's shorter.
Or another way to say it: If you faint the opponent with a critical hit that's normal effective, then the time between:
* Printed the A of "A critical hit!", and
* Printed the F of "Foe ____ fainted!",
would be longer than 81 frames, I think.
When I checked a larger sample size of crits, I saw a lot of variance, possibly owing to cry length and the general lagginess of the late game. So to attempt to control for these variables, I took an early fight where I did not use a crit, then manipped for a crit (the next-to-last Poke on Route 3). In order to better assess time here, I started counting frames from when I pressed A to select the move:
James's Caterpie, 30 HP, non-crit Water Gun
A pressed to select move at frame 54592
F printed at frame 54837
54837 - 54592 = 245 frames
James's Caterpie, 30 HP, crit Water Gun
A pressed to select move at frame 54618
F printed at frame 54942
54942 - 54618 = 324 frames
324 - 245 = 79 frames
A test like this is most likely where my initial assumed value of 79 frames came from, and I saw similar numbers whenever I rerouted sections to reduce the number of crits
TAS noob.
Completed:
Pokemon FireRed/LeafGreen Round 2
In Progress/Backlog:
Pokemon FireRed/LeafGreen Any% Reroute
Pokemon FireRed/LeafGreen Beat All Trainers
The Neverhood Any%
NES Monopoly 1 CPU Glitchless
At 2:22:50, it looks like you bike and then pick up HM07 Waterfall, so the game waits until the music fades out. I think it's faster to run to the item and pick it up (like for the Gold Teeth at 1:22:10).
I think you might be right, but I will go back and take a look at this. If it indeed saves time, I will attempt to rework that section. However, since pretty much everything after the HM07 pickup is spinner manips, crit manips and Metronome manips, that hypothetical timesave may get gobbled up anyway
* FractalFusion wrote:
It seems to me the super effective text box alone should not take 172 frames. More like 93. 172 sounds like both Crit+SE text boxes together.
I just went back and checked in my first draft (it was easier to get to) and looked at the timings for SE and Crit+SE. It looks like the exact numbers are slightly different (I observed the exact timings of the crit and SE textboxes to vary a little bit whenever I timed them, so I should amend my writeup to say about 172/79 frames), but the basic principle that I had was correct:
Super Effective (Blizzard on Dragonite)
Printed the I of "It's super effective!" at frame 494554
Printed the F of "Foe DRAGONITE fainted!" at frame 494729
494729 - 494554 = 175 frames
Crit + Super Effective (Zap Cannon on Aerodactyl)
Printed the A of "A critical hit!" at frame 493591
Printed the I of "It's super effective!" at frame 493672
Printed the F of "Foe AERODACTYL fainted!" at frame 493847
493847 - 493591 = 256 frames
* FractalFusion wrote:
IIRC, from my experience in Gen III, most damaging moves have their accuracy rolled right before the text box that says "____ used ____!" There are some exceptions, though.
So it is difficult to manipulate because it occurs after the roll for the move called by Metronome. However, it may be possible to interrupt it with Help Menu manipulation.
I actually did, in an earlier draft, manipulate the accuracy of a Metronomed move by using the help menu in the couple frames between the move selection and the move display. However, every time I tried it for an OHKO move, it didn't work. Unless the RNG just happened to be so bad that it didn't yield a hit for 75 consecutive frames, and did this for multiple OHKO moves in multiple fights... It certainly would make Lapras 1 a lot easier
TAS noob.
Completed:
Pokemon FireRed/LeafGreen Round 2
In Progress/Backlog:
Pokemon FireRed/LeafGreen Any% Reroute
Pokemon FireRed/LeafGreen Beat All Trainers
The Neverhood Any%
NES Monopoly 1 CPU Glitchless
Upon uploading, it was pointed out to me that I accidentally left 196 empty frames at the end of the TAS like a dum-dum. I've uploaded a corrected version to my userfiles (http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/71251373994144625). Could the judges either trim the extra frames or use the file from my userfiles?
TAS noob.
Completed:
Pokemon FireRed/LeafGreen Round 2
In Progress/Backlog:
Pokemon FireRed/LeafGreen Any% Reroute
Pokemon FireRed/LeafGreen Beat All Trainers
The Neverhood Any%
NES Monopoly 1 CPU Glitchless
Link to video
The TAS is complete and submitted, and the video is live!
Overall, I'm pretty happy with it. My goals for what time could be achieved kept shifting as I got deeper into the process and saw how much more timesave was possible, but I'm satisfied with getting a 2:45. I'm pretty sure that, even with god RNG, it's not possible to get a 2:44
After a little break, I'll work on putting together a commentary video with an overlay to display the catches and explain some of the tricks and details
TAS noob.
Completed:
Pokemon FireRed/LeafGreen Round 2
In Progress/Backlog:
Pokemon FireRed/LeafGreen Any% Reroute
Pokemon FireRed/LeafGreen Beat All Trainers
The Neverhood Any%
NES Monopoly 1 CPU Glitchless
Link to video
I was not planning to post the entire run in each of the WIP videos, but for reasons that aren't worth explaining, I had to redo the TAS from the beginning. The rerecord count is 50230, for those who are curious. Some observations and findings:
-Based on my research, ideal Squirtle stats are 0-11 HP/4-31 ATK/0-25 DEF/31 SPA/0-31 SPD/31 SPE/Mild
--The low HP and DEF IVs and Mild nature are to more easily set up Torrent
--The 4+ ATK is needed to 3-shot Bug Catcher Sammy's Weedle
--The 31 SPA and +SPA nature is to avoid needing a crit on Bug Catcher James' Metapod
--The 31 SPE is to speedtie Lass Sally's Rattata, avoiding the need for a speedfall on turn one
--SPD doesn't matter, as nothing hits Squirtle with a special move
--Assuming uniform distribution, only .00107% of Squirtles fit all of these criteria
--My Squirtle fits these ideal stats: 5/5/5/31/26/31/Mild
-The necessary ranges for Clefairy stats are 30-31 ATK/31 SPA/30-31 SPE/Naughty or Lonely. Certain combinations of HP and defensive IVs are unacceptable because they will AI-lock Bridge Rival into Quick Attack
--30+ ATK and the +ATK nature are necessary to one-shot Misty's Starmie. 31 makes some ranges more favorable over the course of the run, but is not required
--30+ SPE is required to speedtie the very first Rocket Grunt's Rattata. 31 vs. 30 only makes a difference in some fights after we have already obtained Quick Claw
--31 SPA is required in order to one-shot Bruno 2's second Steelix with crit Blizzard. Anything less, and we would have to find a super-effective kill with Metronome
--My Clefable's stats are: 8/31/9/31/20/31/Naughty
-Due to the layout of Lavender Town and a lack of money, it wound up being 73 frames faster to pick up an Escape Rope in Rock Tunnel and then shop in Lavender after getting the Poke Flute, as opposed to shopping as soon as we got into town
-In the Lavender Mart, I bought more Great Balls, Escape Ropes and Super Repels than we will actually need. Due to the way the Mart menu works, it is faster to buy 11 Escape Ropes than 6
-I had phenomenal RNG for the door Rockets, Giovanni 1, Erika, and Snorlax. Optimization attempts (like rearranging moves or changing the catch order in Rock Tunnel) wound up actually costing time, because they disrupted the crazy RNG that I had during that stretch
TAS noob.
Completed:
Pokemon FireRed/LeafGreen Round 2
In Progress/Backlog:
Pokemon FireRed/LeafGreen Any% Reroute
Pokemon FireRed/LeafGreen Beat All Trainers
The Neverhood Any%
NES Monopoly 1 CPU Glitchless
Link to video
The current WIP through Nugget Bridge. For those who are curious, the current rerecord count is 23961. Some notes:
-I entered the PC on the first pass through Viridian City. This gets the RNG into its faster-cycling mode sooner. If I don't do this, I would have to use a completely different RNG seed to get a Clefairy at a much earlier frame. Unfortunately, there aren't really any easily-available RNG seeds which get a good-enough Squirtle and a good-enough Clefairy at the right times
-I rerouted the Viridian Forest movement to take a more direct path that takes more steps in the grass. This leads to a fourth encounter in the Forest, which is fine. I believe (but do not remember with 100% certainty) that taking the most direct path would lead to a fifth encounter in the Forest, which I don't have enough Poke Balls for
-I've still got 170 frames of delay in Mt. Moon just prior to the Clefairy catch. I'm going to keep reworking this section for a bit to try to bring that delay down, and to get things like move rearrangement and Forest catch order as optimized as I can
-My two main plans for working with these frames are to nickname the Pidgey (which is objectively not worth the investment, but since I have to spend the frames somewhere...) and put more of the delay in the Jigglypuff catch instead of right before the Clefairy encounter, since the RNG cycles faster in-battle than it does in the overworld
-Partially out of my own curiosity, I'm going to work on a Lua script that will bruteforce through the beginning to find how to manip for every possible trainer ID. If I know exactly how many frames it takes to get each trainer ID, I can make a more educated decision about which one I will use
TAS noob.
Completed:
Pokemon FireRed/LeafGreen Round 2
In Progress/Backlog:
Pokemon FireRed/LeafGreen Any% Reroute
Pokemon FireRed/LeafGreen Beat All Trainers
The Neverhood Any%
NES Monopoly 1 CPU Glitchless
I figured I would post the WIPs as I go back through this and clean it all up. Any feedback is welcome!
I figured out the mechanics of encounter manipulation for Route 1, and got the encounter count that I was looking for. The next step is to go back and re-do it with a better Squirtle (should be 39 frames away from this one IIRC), then play through to the Mt. Moon encounter, so that I have an idea of the framerange when I would expect to get Clefairy.
Link to video
TAS noob.
Completed:
Pokemon FireRed/LeafGreen Round 2
In Progress/Backlog:
Pokemon FireRed/LeafGreen Any% Reroute
Pokemon FireRed/LeafGreen Beat All Trainers
The Neverhood Any%
NES Monopoly 1 CPU Glitchless
TAS noob.
Completed:
Pokemon FireRed/LeafGreen Round 2
In Progress/Backlog:
Pokemon FireRed/LeafGreen Any% Reroute
Pokemon FireRed/LeafGreen Beat All Trainers
The Neverhood Any%
NES Monopoly 1 CPU Glitchless
I threw together a very sloppy E4R2 run for my first-ever TAS: https://youtu.be/LzvYqYEs5Fo
I'm already working on making a number of changes on my second pass at the category:
-switching from FireRed to LeafGreen, in order to use Sandshrew as Cut/Strength mule. By catching Sandshrew below level 12 on Route 4, I will be able to teach both moves without the extra textboxes for deleting a move. Since Sandshrew will use the two HMs so often, I will also be able to get some additional timesave by giving it a one-character nickname
-finding a different Clefairy. It does not appear that I will be able to easily get the same Trainer ID in LG that I had in FR, so I will need to find another ID which gives me an appropriately-powerful Clefairy. Depending on what frame that Clefairy shows up, the early-game routing will also change, as I will have a different amount of time to fill before the catch
-better money/item routing. My first pass ran out of both Poke Balls and Repels inside of Rock Tunnel, and took some extra encounters as a result. I've already rerouted the money so that I buy more of both items in Pewter, and then buy all of my Escape Ropes in Lavender
-better PP routing. In hindsight, Metronome is really slow to use, and should only be used if I don't have an OHKO with any other moves. Therefore, I will need to use more healing items
-different move routing. I am researching whether it will be worth it to teach Return over Mega Punch at some point in the run (either somewhere before Erika or after Koga). The combination of the detour to pick it up and the extra time to teach it cost about 2000 frames, so I'll be seeing if the stronger move will make enough time up by avoiding the need for as many crits
-better Repel routing. I had to bike in circles outside of Cinnabar Mansion because my repel hadn't run out yet. Then, I got an extra encounter on Route 23 because I didn't use a repel during an earlier menu
I'd be happy to collab if anyone with some more experience wants to weigh in
TAS noob.
Completed:
Pokemon FireRed/LeafGreen Round 2
In Progress/Backlog:
Pokemon FireRed/LeafGreen Any% Reroute
Pokemon FireRed/LeafGreen Beat All Trainers
The Neverhood Any%
NES Monopoly 1 CPU Glitchless