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I'm not sure of the mechanics behind it, but I've managed to produce, then replicate and improve a glitch that kept the breakable walls for loading. This will save 6 frames due to there being no 3 frames of hitstun (which freezes x-velo to 0 for the duration) from breaking the wall, 3 frames less decay on x-velocity, and 3 frames of actual movement.
Will have this done late tonight or early tomorrow. This won't disappoint! :D
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Lost what I was typing by hitting F5 LOL. This'll be short.
I'm going to redo TR2 from about 16 seconds in. I decided to do it because I don't want my submission to be trumped with someone simply utilizing the decay trick in parts where I didn't :/
Shouldn't take too long though xD. SM1 is looking pretty good, hopefully it'll sync up without much fuss.
Edit
Testing out a new route in TR2.
6/9
Alright, the route is pretty much TAS-only and saves about 40 frames. There is going to be another route change, but I'm not going to go into any details as I want it to be a surprise. I was messing around and found something awesome that's only applicable to TR1 and TR2.
After I upload the finished TR2, I'll go into more details :P
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Wyster wrote:
Lol poeple complained alot about lookdown in Goldeneye, i wonder how long before poeple start bashing Mario about it? :P
Loved Collect the Caps! Submarine glitching was a nice WTF.
I didn't like the look down in Goldeneye, but that's because there is a lot more going on in that game. In these two videos for SM64, you're not really missing out on much with the camera aiming at the walls. If anything, it gives an illusion of it being faster (not considering that it is faster) due to not knowing how much longer is left in the underwater tunnels.
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I find it weird that sometimes excess x-velo can easily be stored by spinning (pressing down)/sliding and holding back, and other times it doesn't. However I found that jumping for a frame and holding back does just as good of a job, so I'll be doing that from now on.
Spent yesterday figuring out the best method of using the first set of Jelly in SM1. Just to make sure, I optimized using both the first jelly and the second (I did this in my previous run, but I'm a lot better this go-around so I had to do it again). Second Jelly is still the better choice.
Edit
Calling it a night for tonight. Tons of tiny little improvements. So far I've saved 24 frames in the first 8 seconds in the level with all the tricks I learned while making this second run. Glad I got a Nitsuja script that works when nothing else does hahaha (RAM Watch addresses are frozen). The ghosts are infinitely useful. Can't over state how useful this script has been.
I even saved time getting hit by the Orbinaut (3 frames). Last run I didn't realize that x-velo before being hit effected your x-velo after the hit (figured it was fixed like in most games). Not leaving any stone unturned this time xD.
5/30
Decided against taking the route in my previous run with Red Burst. I tested an unoptimized run against the previous run and I've lost 26 ms (milliseconds) on my 86 ms improvement at the slope after the popcorn shooter (didn't check frame count). I believe I'm going to be able to cut that 26 ms lost by a lot due to having an unoptimized speed boost off a rail (5812 lua value, unoptimized) and now I've gotten 6186 (lua value).
I've also decided to test and find out if it would be faster to just grind the rail normally rather than landing on the end of the slope rail for the speed boost. It eats up a lot of time for the speed not to be conserved very long (I've tried a lot of different methods to save it through the loop, but none of the worked unfortunately. I noticed Nitsuja's WIP for Rush also lost the big speed in a loop too.. so if he couldn't save it either, I doubt there is a way to do so).
Edit
Figured out a new trick that might require me restarting the run ;_;. Basically it's a trick with boost that slows down decay on regular jumps. Instead there being a huge decay the second frame after jumping, this drastically slows decay for 9 frames (Lua value jumping and holding back brings speed down by around 100. This cuts it down to 6 per frame!)
How it's done:
Boosting two frames before hitting the ground, then jump + holding forward a frame, then back for 9 frames. I'm 95% sure I'll have to restart from TR2 (Can't be used on TR1). I'm going to go back tonight and look at just how much time can be saved using it.
update (sorry everyone in IRC xD)
I messed around with this some more and found that it's only useful for "small jumps" (<15 frames) rather than big ones (16+ frames).
There's only one section that benefits from this (Frames 8469 - 8498) and might give a frame improvement. Other than that, there only large jumps or sloped jumps that this wouldn't apply to TR2.
I'm going to check SM1, won't update this post until tomorrow night.
5/31
Five frames faster than my WIP from two days ago with this new trick. Unknowingly, I've been using this trick (although not at it's "full" potential) in the run. I've been using a system of going faster (when it returns with the best results) of in this sequence;
1: A + >
2: B + >
3-6: <-
7: Y + <8>
9-10: <-
This left me with leftover slow decay frames. But even checking back, there isn't but one part that this can be used on in TR2. I'm interested to see how this effects using slopes for "higher than ground cap" x-velo. Such as landing on frame 10 of the technique, sliding from frame 11 until hitting 61440 speed, then having some leftover slow decay frames which would delay the use of boosting to also slow decay. Unfortunately, this would only be applicable to constant slopes and some curves, but not loops (which result in the best x-velo boost in this group mention). This should also be really beneficial for curved rails (gives the best x-velo boost period), but there won't be any use of this until possibly SC1, as there aren't any rails in TR2, SM1 or 2 that I can reach from under them.
Update
There is too much lag to perform the slowed decay on the ending slope of TR2. I tested it out after the enemies were gone, and optimized the test. Too many frames are wasted for it to be useful since the spring has to be hit. The jump has to be performed later and leads to only an extra frame of lessened decay. The spring is hit in the same amount of time at the same y coordinate (which is all that matters).
I managed to actually do a decent job of syncing the improvement to the rest of the run, however the section at Frame 9515 ends up having more lag that ruins the improvement due to inputs being dropped (tried to correct this manually).
I tested to see how this trick works with boosters. They override each other, as in whatever is performed second is what is going to be left.
I should have SM1 done sometime Friday or Saturday. I've been taking it kind of slow due to NBA Playoffs and now the Finals xD.
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Back when I tested it on 9.6, euro version had less lag frames than the us version. The beginning credits were also faster to get past, but I believe I read somewhere that-that is a negligent point.
It's the weird kind of lag I talked about earlier in the year. Every input but jump works during that frame. There's a lot more of those in the US version when I tested the two of them in 9.6
Also the european version is in English, if someone wants to pause and actually read during the scenes they're able to do so. I tested it out to see if it was possible to switch regions and watch the playthrough in Spanish, French etc. Unfortunately it desyncs :/.
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Link to video
I'll be posting the .dsm after SM1 is finished. Sorry this isn't "new" per-say. I figured since I haven't been able to replicate an improvement in 50 or so attempts since February, I might as well just go with the original. I wish I'd of kept the '12"91 xD, but I figured I could reproduce it at a later time. Good luck to whomever attempts to obsolete this in the future!
I spent about an hour and finally found a good sweetspot that led to only 1 frame desyncing in the copy+paste. All in all, one lag frame was eliminated rather than any being added. Then I spent the past hour or so uploading it to youtube. I'm about an hour late posting this too haha. I'd of gotten more accomplished tonight, but I was busy watching the heat vs bulls :(.
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There hasn't been real progress. I've doing a test run to get back in the rhythm again. There's a lot of little things that I've had to relearn, like conserving momentum, skipping hitstun when killing an enemy, breaking max speed when jumping off slopes (albeit slightly). I believe I have gotten it all down now.
I'm gonna mess around for the rest of today and then I'll be back and at it.
5/26
So I'm going to just attempt to splice the Globotron fight from my previous run on Desmume 9.6. It was a lot flashier than what I currently have. I've tried to improve this for a long time now (off and on) and I just can't. I'll post my .dsm and upload the fight to youtube once it's done (copy + pasting certainly won't work due to the game having random frames of lag that always differ, but I can mimic and accommodate for those lag frames).
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End of the semester is May 18th for me. As soon as the semester is over, I'm back to working on this full time. Starting with Globotron redux.
EDIT
Taking my last final today and I'm going to start this TASing overtime :D
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I'm still taking this at a snail's pace, but once this semester is over in five weeks, I'm going to dedicate all the time I need toward finishing this :D.
In the mean time, I'm going to finish up SM1 either this week or next (three papers due this week! -_-) and upload the dsm so there's some shown progress. Already a full second faster about 30% of the way in (restarted it).
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I've been slacking :(. SM1 is about halfway done, but I haven't touched it in the past week. I've gotta focus and get this run done xD. I feel really bad that about slacking at all when Nitsuja did all that work making the Lua script. So it's definitely going to get done, just been going at a snail's pace lately.
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So I've gone back to running Globotron LOL. I'm on spring break this week, so hopefully I can make some good progress during the week. Hopefully I'll get through SM2 by Sunday (I don't think I will, but that's the goal). Looking forward to seeing the improvements in SM1 though, as I had a hell of a time optimizing to "perfect" last time. It should be a lot easier this time around with lua.
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Not sure if I posted about this earlier or not. I tested it out though.
Tested something out that I've been wondering about as a possible improvement to TR2. Holding left and jumping after being on certain slopes will give a higher that ground max x-velo (not a lot though, like 64448). I was thinking maybe there would be an improvement on TR2 after the first loop by holding left and jumping before hitting the water (landing on the water before x-velo would decay below 61440). I did that, but x-velo would be reset as soon as right would be pressed. So I decided to test out if jumping on the water at all would reset x-velocity (by freezing x-velo at 61440) and it does.
However I did find a trick that might be useful later on to speed up running on water sections if Sonic is under 54528 when reaching the water.
Anyways, on to SM1.
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I've done 3 seperate runs of Globotron and can't get lower than 0'12"93. I tested it before after beating Captain Jelly in my last WIP and got 0'12"91. If I don't get it after the next two tries, I'm going to just leave it as 0'12"93. I've even tried not moving at all except to avoid getting hit and to attack first frame possible. Still 0'12"93.
March 8th
Same thing again. If I don't get it my next try, I'm moving on. It's been nearly a month since I've had any real progress.
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Got my scholarship refund last week and I've been distracted by actually having extra money for the first time in months.
I'm going to get back to work on this starting next week. A week off was nice as I had been working on this almost every day since Christmas Eve.
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I've tested two different optimizations so far, and going slower is faster >_>.
First one was using the very first ramp in a different way. Instead of boosting asap and backwards airdashing right before hitting the ground, I found a faster method. By using the boost a few frames later for a single frame and then holding backwards, I was able to land with 60544 speed and x-velocity. However when it came to jumping from the loop down to the slope, the slower run landed a point and a half (lua based value) further ahead due to being further up the slope. I tried delaying sliding (in both the test and the WIP) for a frame to get "higher" before the jump and it was worse.
First loop that's encountered also can't be optimized with the loop trick. The trick is kind of hard to explain, but basically it's getting as close to 58880 x-velocity while having 61440 speed without going over [58880 x-velocity] and then jumping while holding forward. This sets x-velocity to 64448 temporarily and it can be extended by midair boosting backwards for one frame. The velocity can be further prolonged by jumping when hitting the ground and mid-air boosting backwards for another single frame. For some reason, the speed can't be carried on the ground by spinning or sliding. It'll reset the speed+x-velo to 61440 the next frame. I'm doing it correctly (how I did it after the curved rail) by holding backwards and pressing R and backwards for a frame before holding forward. Even holding backwards the whole time resets the speed. I think the x-velocity is too low to preserve. Like some has to be sacrificed in order for it to be preserved. I'm not positive though. Back to my original point, this isn't better on the first loop due to A) the trick being slower due to the "setup" and B) Jumping and doing another midair boost upon landing would be need to be faster than the WIP (which isn't possible due to hitting the wall).
I'll try out the second loop tomorrow. My biggest fear is that I'll be unable to get the same kind of run when it comes to the section with the boost pad (Starting at Frame 9523 or time 0'33"27). I think if I can get that section to work just as well with the optimization (or better), I may be able to finish one frame faster due to barely being off a frame in my WIP.
EDIT
Tested the second loop and it was indeed faster. There was also some luck at the 9523 section as there wasn't any dropped inputs and that lead to a new strategy. New finish time is 0'42"57 (3 ms faster). Technically it's only one frame faster than the WIP but there was a lag frame so it's really two.
Got home about 3 hours ago. Globotron was beaten in 0'12"93 again >_>. I'm going to retry it tomorrow.
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I did. The extra x-velocity disappears too fast. Boosting is needed to make it last. Top ground speed is also sacrificed and so the trade off isn't worth it.
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Sorry there hasn't been any progress in a few days. I'm trying to get caught up on class work so that I can spend most of next week working on this run (and practicing for a smash bros. tournament next weekend).
I'm debating redoing TR2. It would be a really small improvement (2-3 frames atb) for my current ability and the improvements wouldn't be noticeable.
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Finally done whoring frames on TR2.
http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/1403292672/Sonic%20Colors%202.dsm
Possible improvements would come from a loop trick I found on the last loop being used on the other two loops in the earlier. I don't believe it would result in a significant improvement, so I didn't go back and optimize for it.
Link to video
I'm not sure if TR1 could be improved with the loop trick. It's pretty boring since there's no boost.
Link to video
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nitsuja wrote:
Certain rails seem not to allow falling through them either, although even on ones that do, maybe landing near the bottom of a rail and immediately jumping again while holding backwards would give a respectable speedup.
Off the top of my head, I don't believe I've come across a rail that is impassable. However I haven't specifically tested to see if I could jump on every rail in my last run, again, either.
You were right about the speed boost on the rail. I tested it out on a sloped rail and I got a speed burst (4926 lua, 78816 real) when jumping the same frame as landing. Now the key is finding a) places to utilize it and b) rails that are either impassable or slopes are treated as separate rails.
Edit (all values are lua)
Curved rails work too, forcing me to optimize a part of TR2 :D. I'm never going to get to Sweet Mountain ;_;.
I'm currently testing to see what the highest speed I can get off the rail is. So far I've hit 5395. I'm trying to find an optimal angle to have x-velo left over when hitting the surface.
Sliding (Pressing R while on the ground) and spinning (pressing down) keep additional speed at exactly the same rate of decay. Sliding backwards looks cooler imo.
For some reason I had a really hard time breaking through the wall and not having my x-velocity drop down to 0. The faster I went, the more likely it was to happen. The weird part was that the two fastest speeds were the only ones that broke through, and took longer to get there.
The fastest (5675) ended up running into the regular wall, so it wouldn't work. I had to settle on the second fastest speed (5672) in the end. I land and begin my slide with 4578 (73250 regular) speed, which is a hell of a lot better than normal and is the fastest ground speed I've hit since running Colours.
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Awesome. I watched (I've never even seen purple trails before LOL) it and even replicated the landing boost and the jumping boost on my own in Rush. I'm going to have to do some more research into it, but unfortunately I have a lot of class work to do that's preventing me from doing it right now.
From what I've learned in the half hour of messing around (on the first slope it's used in your dsm), the slope drops x-velocity down to 3471 (55536) when speed is 3840 (61440) and y-velocity is 1641 (26256). I was able to replicate the boost using Sonic Colours' method of Boost + Jump frame 1 -> Airdash -> hold backwards. Hopefully this will work in Colours.
edit
Couldn't help myself. I tried it out on TR1 on a slope that was very similar (changed x-velocity to 3472) but it didn't work. I did find out that either spinning or sliding will increase x-velocity when jumping from a slope though.
I still believe there's a chance for it to be replicated. It might require having a higher speed than 3766 when hitting the slope, which I can do with boost.
Managed to hit 4469 in TR2, however it capped to 3840 next frame. Holding backwards didn't make a difference, nor did sliding or spinning. Even jumping capped it. But while it looks identical to the TR1 slope, the x-velocity was a lot different (forgot off the top of my head). So I'm attributing it to the slope being too steep.
If it's going to work on any slope, it'll be the slope in TR1. I'll try it out later with boost. Hopefully it's just a matter of speed and not being "fixed".
edit
Definitely been fixed. I edited the speed value to 122800 (real value, not lua) to the frame before landing from a jump, then disabled it while on a slope. X-velocity was a little under the value, but it was also over 100k. So I tested to see if the speed and x-velo would keep their values all the way down the slope and they indeed did.
So the next test was to jump for a frame while holding backwards. I did and x-velocity went higher than speed, which is normal. I landed the second frame, normal. However speed and velocity dropped down to 61440 and 56760.
Just to make sure it's not a case of a cheat messing things up, I decided to see if the speed would carry over when jumping from a flat surface to another flat. Worked just like in Rush (have to hold backwards right before landing). So I guess there's a check for slopes. Since slopes are needed to get the speed, it's a no go all around.
=(
It's also fixed in the US version as well. Figured it'd be worth checking out.
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nitsuja wrote:
be on the lookout for any instances where you can land on a flat shallow downhill slope while you have a very high x velocity (the higher the better, but slightly below max ground speed is the minimum). In Sonic Rush, those are the conditions where jumping gives you an uncapped speed boost and causes you to immediately land again.
Whoa! You don't happen to have a .dsm demonstrating it being used do you? If not, could tell me what level(s) that it works on in Rush? I'd like to test it out and know how to replicate it in Rush, and then worry about Colours.
A couple general questions
So, it requires landing on the slope? It can't be in transition from running from flat to slope?
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I'm going to finish my current run of TR2 and post the dsm just to show some progress. However, I'm going to restart TR2 afterward due to a new method I found to keep a higher average speed during long jumps.
Hopefully this is it for big discoveries lol.
http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/900195966/Sonic%20Colors.dsm
Remember, it's for DeSmuME 0.9.7. It won't sync in 0.9.6 correctly.
The discovery is that backwards boosting in mid-air can "reset" decay. The x-velocity value stays the same when the boost is intiated, but the value decreases much slower (ie;, decay). It's mostly useful during big jumps, but it's also useful for a different method of backwards boosting airdash.
Edit
Calling it a night. Gotta get some work done for class. I'm 30 frames ahead of the WIP I posted six hours ago (in this same post lol) and I'm about 3/4's of the way done with TR2 (going pretty fast being it's my 4th TAS of TR2 lol).
Everything up until the first ramp is the same (ie; the whole ferris wheel chase) due to the lag that was present making it not worth redo-ing. At the very best there could be a 1-2 frame improvement by manipulating lag so that jumps/airdash inputs aren't dropped.
Finishing TR2 and Globotron tomorrow :D.
