Posts for Y0SH1

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Joined: 5/12/2007
Posts: 76
Wow, you finished the new improvement quickly. Yes vote; excellent work! It's really nice to see that we have a complete Luigi's Mansion TAS now. :D
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I should've visited this thread a while ago... I've been working on a TAS (testrun) of this as well (any% no OOB). Movie file here (goes up to Boos 4/5 in the Ball Room/Storage Room) using the Japanese version, this memory card, and this build by Masterjun. Hopefully it'll sync for you so you can compare directly; if it doesn't sync (and for convenience), I have it uploaded to YouTube: Area 1, start of Area 2 I don't really have any in-depth understanding with the technical mechanics of this game, but hopefully some of these notes will be helpful to you: - Nice job with reducing the ghost catching periods! (For reference, the fastest I've been able to catch a single ghost without the assistance of a wall is 21 frames (first frame being when the HP counter disappears and the last frame being when it pops into the vacuum).) - When grabbing a key, you'll want to grab it at the very edge, closer to the direction you'll be heading in afterward. You also have 2 frames of possible movement, 1 before the pose animation begins and 1 right after putting away the key. - For doubles, try to get the ghosts to head directly toward each other as much as possible before sucking them up. (It might also be even faster if, as soon as they're close enough, you face toward one and then the other quickly (like you've already been doing) instead of waiting to shine both on the same frame.) - In the Wardrobe Room, instead of going for a double, the first ghost that automatically spawns should be caught as early as possible, since it's what causes the next two ghosts to spawn. - When shooting a ball at Chauncey, first hold L before releasing R to shoot and then press R again to start vacuuming him. This lets you keep the vacuum out, meaning you don't have to go through the animation of pulling out the vacuum again. - During Chauncey's body slam phase, you can push him further through his path by getting underneath him at the right position whenever he's about to land. Where you're positioned affects how much he's pushed forward by. - After the battle, Luigi automatically takes out his flashlight. Maybe you could hold L/R beforehand to get the vacuum out (no animation stall) and let go once you're positioned to glitch into floor 1.5 to skip a second pulling-out-the-vacuum/flashlight animation and save a few frames. Some ideas: - Maybe try to manipulate the ghosts toward walls so you can reduce the catching period? (Example here) It doesn't seem easy to manipulate their movement, though... - It might be possible to get Chauncey to start his body slam phase at a certain position (so he's already further in the path when he starts) by releasing him (after the first 50 HP draining) at the right spot. I didn't test this idea much, but it may be worth looking into. I think that should be it... I don't know anything about the skew glitch and how it works, but Veman should be able to cover everything else (and anything I probably missed) for you; he's a really cool guy. =) Good luck on this!
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zk547 wrote:
I also saw that video was wondering whether it could be used to save time in 1-4. The first time, I couldn't find a way to do it. I tried to ground-pound, but couldn't find a way. I didn't think of your way (I didn't know it could work like that too because I thought ground-pounding was necessary), but nice! 5 frames! It's great to know that the trick could be used to save time, even if a little.
Yeah, I thought ground-pounding was necessary, too. It seems that all you need is to be in the sliding animation. It's also nice to know that it saves time, definitely.
zk547 wrote:
After more fooling around, I was able to come up with a ground-pound method, but it was 28 frames slower unfortunately. The reason probably comes from the length of the ground-pound itself and the fact that it has to be done twice:
Ah, dang... I can't think of any other way with this method, too.
zk547 wrote:
I haven't looked into your method yet to see if it could be done faster, but now that the ground-pound method is slower, I'll look into it later. It would be nice if the trick could be used more in other levels...
Hopefully there's more locations it can be used! I'd love to see a level where you basically have to keep that high speed for the most of it. I realized that it was pointless to say that I won't be working on this directly anymore, since motivation comes and goes. I spent the past few days slowly working on attempting 1-2 (secret). Here's two versions: (1) http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/1636957799/1-2%20%281F%20slower%2C%20good%20manipulation%29.dsm (2) http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/763922221/1-2%20%281F%20faster%2C%20bad%20manipulation%29.dsm (Sorry about the beginnings; I couldn't seem to get a shell to come out 100% of the time, so I had to manipulate it manually in the movies themselves.) I was able to save 5 frames - 1 at the blue shell grab, 2 from adjusting pixels at the first Star Coin to bounce off of the wall earlier, 1 from adjusting pixels to enter the pipe transition a frame earlier, and most notably, 1 at the first seesaw... While working on saving the frame at the seesaw, I discovered a few things:
    - It looks like the highest speed you can be at to do the shell speed gaining trick is anywhere below 2816, the speed you normally travel at while in the shell. The most optimal way I've found to get into that "mode" from full speed is to jump toward an edge, press back a frame before landing, continue holding back 3 frames while grounded, let go of left/right the next frame, hold forward+down the next frame, then finally hold back (+X/Y). (You'll have to line up how close to the edge you land with your jump for this to work.) - Staying on the seesaw advances RNG for some reason. - When I broke the brick after the seesaw (in (2)), it seemed to give me a completely different set of RNG values.
The third one is a very odd problem, as I then can't line up the manipulation to be the same anymore... I provided another file (1) that loses this frame, but keeps the manipulation the same. Also, for future reference, may I use any of your inputs for tests/attempts like this? I used yours whenever I couldn't find an improvement in an area, if that's okay.
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zk547 wrote:
So, it turned out that using the speed gaining trick off the pipe in the underground section in 1-4 was actually slower so I had to redo that area again...
Now, that's a silly mistake. Nice catch! Really shows that I'm not trying hard enough to check for different strategies (especially given the fact that I made a comparison for it specifically)...
zk547 wrote:
But thankfully there was a ledge right in front of the pipe so I was able to use the speed gaining trick off that instead, though I actually had to let go of left for a few frames and reach full speed a few frames later than the ideal time because I had have a very precise x-position in order to be able to jump, hit the block with the p-switch and get a corner-boost while still landing on the pipe, jump and hit the p-switch, and barely land on the left block in order to be able to jump.
Dang, that sounds really precise. Glad you were able to do it.
zk547 wrote:
Anyone is welcome to make encodes of my WIP's, for now, I ask that if they are uploaded to youtube, they be unlisted.
Ah, didn't know you had your own account. Understood! I think it'd be best if you did the encodes, since you'll be the one with the most updated WIPs, of course. (Nice to see this at full speed, by the way!) As I got to 1-4 while rewatching the WIP, I recalled that video of the fast shell trick WaddleDX uploaded (though found by alpha) a while ago and wondered if it could be used here. I played around with it and was able to pull off this rather silly-looking stunt: http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/1044013760/1-4%20Test.dsm ...which saved 5 frames. I tried my best to optimize this portion, but maybe you could do it better. There's also the idea of ground-pounding on the hill and then grabbing the shell (grabbing the shell then landing doesn't work), which is likely faster, but since you fall faster than the shell, I wasn't able to do it. This also means two less RNG advances, so you'll have to find two more places to advance the RNG in the level... I think it's possible to throw two more double jumps in there somewhere.
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mathgrant wrote:
As someone with no emulator, it is so painfully tantalizing to see all these 7-second videos and no complete worlds to gawk at. :)
I'd be happy to make encodes for zk547's WIPs, if he's alright with that.
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1-4: Ooh, nice catch with that little speed gain. As for the shell trick... wooooow, what?? I didn't know how easy it was to perform! So all you have to do is run off any edge with low speed (not sure what the limits for speed are), duck once you're in midair, and hold back... (I looked around in the any% and saw that it could be used at the end of 5-2.) Edit: Nevermind, this is slower. Also, I made a little test video comparing it to fireball-wall jump speed gaining (for that particular scenario), just out of curiosity: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LEYF2wxydio I also noticed, while making this, that it seems like the more frames you run on the ground with the shell (using those single frame running opportunities you get every time you land from a full speed jump), the less delay you get upon trying to enter a pipe. 1-A: Interesting discovery as well... No idea why using that trick would allow the shell to run full speed on the ground like that. This trick looks like it could be performed in real time, actually (assuming you can at least do a frame perfect jump to stay in midair long enough to reach full speed). So using the trick vs. fireball-wall jumping is slower in the case above, but faster here, hmm? 2-3: Wow, nice! That's a lot of frames you saved; I didn't expect your previous run to be able to be improved by that much. For 2-A again, hope luck manipulation's not too much of a trouble to resync.
zk547 wrote:
LFNMai has currently lost interest in TAS'ing, unfortunately. :(
:( Also, the more little technical tricks you're able to put into this run, the more awesome it looks!
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Excellent job on the frame saving! Wow, I thought running down mushrooms whenever possible in general was saving pixels. My bad! I just tried to get under the moving wall in your WIP as well and wasn't able to, sadly. (For future reference (to anyone else), screen scrolling won't affect the timing of that specific large wall portion.) To LFNMai, sorry to say, it is not less lag that decides what version is generally preferred, but the version that emulates lag most accurately. I'm willing to believe the most recent versions are the ones to emulate lag most accurately, I think. Speaking of which, 0.9.9 was apparently released a bit ago. As with the other versions, the RNG is different, so other runs won't sync on it. I think it'd be okay if you stuck with 0.9.8, though, given how much progress you've already made and how much trouble it'd be to resync it. Interesting point with Bowser Jr.'s health; I personally never knew that! Odd that they'd randomly decide to reduce the amount of health for him in the last world. (Thinking about it, that was actually time-saving for when we worked on the any%; simply copy-pasting input from W1's fight to W8's was effective!) Also... I'm really, really sorry. I actually held off making another post here until I at least had some form of progress or update to show, but I just couldn't find any motivation to work on this anymore already... I don't have the same patience for optimization as I used to have during the making of the any% run. Extremely sorry for the false joining. :< Again, though, I'll gladly continue to provide feedback or ideas as they come along. Please keep up the great work with what you already have, and apologies again.
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Sorry for my inactivity. I've lost motivation to work on this faster than I thought... I'll get to looking through at least 1-2 eventually. Yup, it seems that the wall jump you already have for 1-2 is faster. For 1-5, though, it did appear to save time (tests below). To do the mushroom boosts, you land on a mushroom edge, run down for a frame, go into the shell without pressing left/right for the next frame, and then jump on the third frame (while still staying in the shell). Though, I think I recall running into a situation where it just wouldn't seem to work on some of the mushrooms. Maybe it has to do with "decimal pixel" positioning... I went ahead and made two tests of 1-5, for you to look at the inputs for the mushrooms and to compare losing the shell early to losing the shell later: Lose shell late - http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/1509080633/1-5%20Test.dsm Lose shell early - http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/308023824/1-5%20Test%202.dsm Notes on the tests: Interestingly, the two strategies are only (about) two frames off! Losing the shell early wins out because having the fire powerup in the bonus room makes wall jumping off the pipe more worthwhile, since you can use a fireball to gain enough speed from the wall jump to land on the moving mushroom and gain even more pixels as it moves. These are both unoptimized, though, but even so, I'm doubtful that there's much else to be saved in the "lose shell late" strategy to beat what could potentially be saved in the other strategy. Hopefully I'm not overlooking anything, though! (I guess 1-Castle may have to be redone, then, unfortunately...)
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zk547 wrote:
No, absolutely not, by all means, go ahead and look through the levels. It's much better if you discover improvements early on so that they can be hex-edited in more easily than if you find them later.
Ah, alright... I'll start trying to look for any possible improvements soon.
zk547 wrote:
If you guys are interested in TAS'ing this game again and want to collaborate, you're welcome to join.
I guess I just basically joined now, heh...
zk547 wrote:
There's also a few people on youtube (I don't know if they have accounts here) who are also planning on TAS'ing the 100%, maybe we can get a group going. If not, you're more than welcome to keep pointing out improvements, the sooner, the better.
The more help the merrier, I suppose! I'm personally not too in touch/familiar with them all, though...
mathgrant wrote:
I don't want to download an emulator. Give me a YouTube encode proving the 364 time, or it didn't happen. Kappa
Sure, here's a little unlisted video of it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=We6OvTPIq3E
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Alright, I fixed up the ground pound and was able to save another 8 frames--please use this one instead: http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/1865664520/1-1%20%28improvement%29.dsm (364 hype FrankerZ)
mindnomad wrote:
What exactly do you want to know about this? I'm sure just jumping on the first possible frame would allow for a double jump, unless you mean something else that is...
Oops! I meant specifically when ducking to cause any of the three jumps, as it doesn't work sometimes. Along with this, I'm not sure why ducking and quickly hitting a ceiling to cancel your duck allows you to go into your double/triple jump.
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zk547 wrote:
That was a nice discovery you made, it saved around 10~20 frames in that room!
Ahh, yeah, thanks. I honestly don't know how I discovered it, haha. We need to figure out what allows it to work... actually, there's a lot of things in this game that need further investigating. Stuff like pipe entry delay, wall jumping mechanics (namely, why it won't work for certain jumps)... even that case you've just come across! (I'd like to get a full understanding on what specifically allows double/triple jumps.) No problems with using my 1-1 attempt! I don't mind at all if you use any of my inputs in general. I've actually lined up the manipulation to stay the same, so it should fit in just fine (with the exception that the score and coin count will be a bit different). I'd also be fine with checking up on the other levels you did, though I'm afraid I'd be too overbearing if I were to do so, haha... Edit: Hold that, I made a silly mistake (failed to cancel the ground pound to the third Star Coin). I'll improve it soon... About wall jumping off of a 2-tile-high structure with the shell, I tried before (and just tried now) and was unable to pull it off as well. It may have to do with how you can't move while ducking in the shell; not sure... I guess you shouldn't worry too much about it. I forgot to mention before, but excellent job on map manipulation! As far as I can tell, World 1 and what you've done in World 2 looks perfect. Also, mindnomad: It looks like breaking both columns in 2-2 is faster since it allows you to build momentum (you barely can in a 1-tile-wide gap). ___ Just to note this somewhere: With the shell, slightly slanted slopes allow you to keep 3100 speed, and 45-degree slopes only let you keep 3087 speed.
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Oh my gosh, I'm really sorry I didn't get around to giving feedback on your last WIP - I saw it, but I was lazy to reply at the time and then completely forgot about it... Definitely amazing work so far! Some comments on the levels: 1-2 (Secret): Loved how you used the animation stalling trick on the teeter-totter! I assume that was to stay at a higher speed without having to go into the shell. 1-T (Secret): Clever usage of that shell-speed gaining trick in the room with all the moving blocks! I have suspicions that getting above 466 may be possible (which goes for any% as well); I did a quick test with the inclusion of that trick and was something like 14 frames off. 1-3: Yikes, I bet it was a pain to optimize each mushrooms' movements for tiny speed gains. 1-T (Normal): Haha, this level just looked fast-paced. 1-A: Love the little shell trick on the ground! Also of note (and I'm sure you already know this, but to be sure), if you want to avoid double jumps, it's better to stay on the ground for a frame without moving left/right and then jump, rather than holding back to slow down. 1-5: Maybe you could keep the shell for a little longer to do a few slope boosts on the mushroom edges (to stay at 3100 speed); just assuming from simply looking, so it may not even save frames... 1-Castle: Hahaha, love the backward movement at the beginning, complete with a backward super corner boost! 2-1: Finding ways to kill those Pokeys is a lot of fun--I like what you did here! 2-3 (Normal): Like with 1-T, I love how the movement looks here. Levels that make you go all over the place look refreshing. As for 2-A, it seems that it's because you didn't actually perform your first jump and it's not allowing you to perform the triple jump because of that. I went back in your case and actually did the first jump, as well as testing if ducking and un-ducking at the ledge for the first jump also qualifies, and it worked. No worries there! But as for the level not allowing you to do super corner boosts, I have no idea... Maybe it's because the Red ? Block boost repositioned you in a way that won't allow you to do them at all anymore. But you've done that in other levels as well, with super corner boosting working just fine, so I'm not sure... On another note, it seems there's more room in your WIP to optimize subpixels (or whatever they're calculated as in this game) whenever wall jumping/alternating from one direction of movement to another, rather sorry to say... I redid some parts of the 1-1 you had (hope you don't mind that I've done so) and saved 8 frames, 3 underground and 5 after the underground portion (though ~4 there came from wall jumping). http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/579330649/1-1.dsm I understand if it's too much work, though! It's definitely time-consuming to have to optimize every turn for a really long run like this. All in all, keep up the great progress! This looks really nice so far and I'll definitely try to follow your WIPs more closely. You've motivated me to do more stuff with this, so I'd be happy to help whenever need be!
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Same! Keep it goin', Cronikeys - your dedication to these great games is soooo nice!
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Oh dear, is that so? I just took a closer look and they certainly are right-on; sorry about that... On another note, I like how you mixed up the sounds, like throwing in baby Yoshi's gulping sound effect. No worries at all, then!
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Ahh!! Yes vote, no doubt! Hmm, I'll try to list some of the less-obvious details that interested me: the instant Swooper 1-Ups in DP2, doing that spin sound in SW3's secret exit (??), the stylish finish after killing the glitched sprite in Groovy, the triple corner clip in VD2 (that particular one made me go "oh, wow," followed by a few replays), and all the neat little tricks going on in CI2 (as well as hitting 1000000). The only criticism I can give is whenever Mario tries to sync actions with the music, as the timing seemed to be just the slightest bit off... but that's barely much of a matter, if even at all! Great job, all who were involved in the making and planning of this TAS!
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Oh, wow, really really happy to hear that! Congratulations for overcoming cancer, Mr_Sweed! =D
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Simply posting to give my encouragement; I really hope you're able to pass it. That'd be one insane break to this game. I'm heavily enjoying each new discovery you make with this glitch, nonetheless. :) (Especially that double Luigi one. Wow...)
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Some runs: Failed World 3-Castle 100% TAS (0.9.8) I was inspired by your post to make this, ais523! (I think the trick has been fairly known (mindnomad and I have known, at least), but I'm not completely sure.) You can keep the invincibility state by simply ducking for 2 frames after full speed and repeatedly jumping. I can't find a good way past that last pillar without taking damage. Luck does not seem to affect it, nor does screen scrolling... but I suppose taking damage won't waste too much time, anyway. World 2-1 100% TAS (0.9.8) Shortly after I made that TAS, mindnomad encouraged me to make this one. It looks pretty nice, I think. World 1-2: 1-frame improvement to the any% TAS (0.9.7) It seems that while at a near halt, you can gain speed faster with the Blue Shell by ducking and holding in the opposite direction you want to move. (I remember coming across this when trying the beginning of 8-3 before but couldn't find another way to utilize it.) (Hmm, there still doesn't seem to be enough improvements for us to work on a new run, though; sorry! :( ) Although it's already been a while, I'm not quite sure if we're really ready to start the 100% TAS... We may need to find an easier way to know what will happen on the map portions whenever we manipulate luck. Edit: Oh, and also, a YouTube user named pyigyli made a "no powerups" TAS, if anyone's interested: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fdthW4UIV_M
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Congratulations, all of you! This is the biggest improvement to an any% TAS this game has ever seen!
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Whoa! I did NOT expect this! Go WaddleDX! :D (Semi-unrelated note: Ground speed cycling (mostly) doesn't work. I don't know why I said that without checking - it basically gives you the same speed as running normally. You'll have to land on certain speed numbers to actually gain pixels!)
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adelikat wrote:
Also, you were 30 frames ahead upon entering 1-1, what is up with that? Did I screw up walking to 1-1?
TRT wrote:
By the way, I checked the dsm and apparently, you were already 17 frames behind after clicking the "Mario Game". Guess not everything was done at first possible frame :P.
Yeah... I've seen this problem happen very often. During the making of your movie, eventually your input file will add a few frames to the beginning for no reason.
TRT wrote:
I haven't looked at how to save time in 1-2 or 1-T in depth, but I agree that the secret pipe in 1-T can be improved by breaking the bottom two bricks rather than the top two so you can technically have a running start towards the pipe.
The 1-Tower problem has already been solved, so it's fine. :)
TRT wrote:
By the way, did you try wall-jumping off the red block that had the blue shell in it? I'm just wondering because you were able to do so with the star in 1-1.
We've tried that before and weren't able to do it. We were able to wall jump off of World 1-1's Red ? Block, however. (Maybe it has to do with the way it moves, or even the place it's positioned...)
TRT wrote:
It seems like there are some spots on the teeter-totter thing where you can get instant 48-50 speed instead of 25-30 speed, but I haven't been able to fully take advantage of it.
The first one was taken advantage of. However for the second one, I'm not sure if it'd help - that seemed to depend more on how long you stay on it. It's great to hear that you reduced the time upon landing. All you had to do was time the last jump so that you jump with any of the three jumps and land at a certain animation state, right? Also, an extra lag frame? That's not good...
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New Super Mario Bros. "any%" TAS WIP I'm working with mindnomad to create an improved "any%" TAS. This WIP goes up to the start of World 5. We are currently 116 frames ahead of adelikat. However, we've still got a few problems: the pipe in World 1-2, and the pipe in World 1-Tower. If we could figure out what causes the delay before entering pipes, then we would be able to save about 6 frames more. From our experience, the delay seems to be reduced the more you hold left or right (without interruption). If it's true that you need to hold left or right for a certain amount of time, then the pipe in 1-2 probably can't be improved because of how we need to stay in the Blue Shell whenever we can make a super corner boost (pressing left or right while in the Blue Shell will reduce your speed every frame if it's above 44). The gain from the super corner boosts really outweighs the delay. ;) If you can find any improvements besides these, please tell us - we'd love to know!
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I have a question, preferably toward adelikat or terrotim. When I try to enter the pipe to the secret exit in World 1-2, I'm not allowed to do so until a certain amount of time upon landing has passed. All the runs that have been published enter the pipe immediately. How do you avoid this delay?
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I've just found a glitch. I don't know if it's already been found (it could be deep in one of the Banjo-Tooie topics at Speed Demos Archive), so hopefully it hasn't been found yet... I was in Cloud Cuckooland, at Inside the Cheese Wedge. I shot a Clockwork Kazooie egg to get to the ledge above. When it blew up and the camera came back to me, I somehow fell through the floor and "exited" (a transition) right back to the spot near the entrance where you'd respawn after dying (without dying, of course). I did a lot more tests and found out that you just had to shoot it and blow it up anywhere to get it to work. I've only been able to pull it off four times in total. (I don't think it would matter, but for all the times I've gotten it to work, I shot the eggs while viewing with C+Up. Also, I didn't have any codes on.) To be very specific, from the entrance, I was near the northeast corner of the room (below the ledge), about the edge of the right side of the crater southwest the very top-left one. I've only tested there, so it may be possible in other places. What I think is going on is that since the ground is bouncy, you can get through it if you time destroying the Clockwork Kazooie egg at the right time, or something like that... Well, I'm not sure if it'd save much time, but it's something!
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I did not want this to be submitted. BBkaizo, please don't submit others' runs without permission. This run is very unoptimized; it's of testrun quality. I'm ashamed to have even made it. Sorry for the confusion, everyone... (Is he fluent in English? He may not understand.)