I have a question about what you think whether it should be allowed or not:
I recently discovered a use for deactivating the 3rd controller from the SNES in Secret of Mana. The way it works is - if you want to plug in a 3rd controller in your SNES, you need use an additional adapter. Those adapters have a switch to 'activate' the 3rd controller, whether an additional controller is physically plugged in or not. So the only thing to do to deactivate the 3rd controller is flipping that switch.
Secret of Mana allows for 3 players simultaneously. It has a - what I assume is a safety/fallback - mechanic that will automatically deactivate and redirect control to the AI if the controller is unplugged, and the other active controller(s) gain control over the event(s) the 3rd character started.
The interesting part here is, you can talk to people with the 3rd controller, then deactivate it and freely walk around while the textbox is still open. While a textbox is still open you can not trigger new events anymore.
Now, it has no practical use as of now for an actual speedrun/route, but I think it has a lot of potential. Combining open textboxes with the invisibility glitch for example let's you walk through walls. Up to now we were limited to needing to talk to an NPC every time we want to go through walls, with this the textbox can simply be kept open and make a straight line from A to B.
Found something interesting:
http://www.twitch.tv/khovastis/b/408238207
1:38:20
- Two characters at the same time running into a cutscene crashes the game. What exactly happens there? Is that potentially useful? oô
A jump attack? Something along the lines as the Sword level 1 Charge?
Also, if I understand this correctly, it's perfectly predictable whether my attack would hit the Spring Beak or not. I'll simply have to find a reliable attack/position to do it then.
Thank you for your answer :)
edit: For the cutscene thing - Simply soft resetting anywhere seems to do the trick. ALSO, if you press "B" you suddenly activate the first cutscene of the area, and then the screen scrolls to the top left indefinitely... Really weird.
Just encountered something curious - I died, soft reset, and then started a new game. In the intro, the camera did not move, in the cutscene where the boy falls he does not fall all the way down and then I somehow do not control over him. What is happening there?
Frankly as far as I'm concerned, if you make an awesome movie using TAS tools, then it should be publishable on this site. Does it really "complete" the game? Who cares! Does it use inputs that a normal player would never be able to access? Who cares, so long as they're repeatable! Was the movie enjoyable to watch, that's what matters.
I support this opinion. I love watching superplays and combo fests in fighters, even though they are not speedruns, but actually playarounds. I love (TAS) speedruns that abuse the games AND consoles limits to create an astonishing experience of "What just happened?" and then reading up on how everything works. But I'm also a big fan of "no-glitch-runs" where the category limits the use of various glitches.
Similar thing with the disc swap (as posted earlier, swapping discs between unrelated games can result in incredible results) - I love watching this being used to it's full potential.
If for some reason we would, as a theoretical example, start PS Spyro 1 and then swap disc to some weird other game, walk into the next emerald, then the game freezes, we swap the disc back to Spyro 1 and the ending plays because it happens to load the ending - that would be amazing and awesome. But should by no means obsolete the current runs.
I have the firm belief, that most things can be solves by "different" - but clearly labeled and defined - categories.
Wow, that script is amazing.. Today at work I actually looked into the whole Lua scripting stuff to figure out how to display hitboxes - this makes it a ton easier, thank you :)
The hitboxes of your weapon is really gigantic in boss battles... Interesting - but only for melee weapons as far as I can tell.
The boss height seems to be a fixed number. Does that affect the hit rate in some way?.. Well it does, but I guess a better question would be - can you even out the height difference by standing on the stairs for example?
Also, did you figure out why the menu freaks out when being off screen?
Oh... So going through NPCs should technially work when not on stairs? I remember I couldnt go through the ones at Tasnica either... But I'll have to double check that - not sure.
Do some bosses have modifier for height? I mean, when simply "standing", not jumping around. The boss in question is the Spring Beak or his fiery version in the pure lands.
For values above $7ECCFF - I simply though it may be impossible because most things seem to be bound to a range of 0xFF when altering. But I don't know. I didn't figure out a way to test that yet. The problem I had so far was, that when trying to alter the x-position of the menu via emulator cheats it never stayed on the set value. Somehow the game seemed to override it every frame or something like that. So I never reached the values for exit-tile altering.
Speaking of which - what happens when opening the menu/equipment menu when your character is off screen? It seems to continuously spin and search for the specific item to settle down. After a while you can navigate in the normal menu. However, as soon as you open the equipment menu it never settles down and softlocks the game.
Hitboxes are twice as large in boss battles? Interesting - but it should still be way out of range from where I hit the Jabberwocky.
http://www.twitch.tv/yagamoth/c/2265786
~53:50
A rather random question: Why can't I sell any items when I don't have any armor items?
Thanks a lot for your support ^^
I have three questions regarding what I encountered recently:
- You can get back into Potos village by simply repeatedly switching characters (pressing Select) and pushing against the NPC blocking the path. Why does this not work on the Guards on Pandoras Ruins or the Guards in the Empires Castle blocking the left stairway when entering the first time?
- I managed to hit a boss from half a screen away with an overcharged-"regular" attack (at least the animation was a normal slash). How does the overcharge glitch influence the attack range/attack hitbox?
- When the Aagragopilon is on the very bottom of his arena, I can not seem to hit him with regular attacks. Is this because the "outside" is considered to be on a different height level?
I'm currently back into reading your post on page 22, if you some of these things there already I'll find it. But if you happen to have a simple explanation to some things that would be appreciated :)
Very interesting - I'll have to read through that a few times to actually understand it though.
Simply that I understand this correctly:
- If I change $7E0108, the Magic Rope would take me to a different entrance. Ok, out of range sadly
- As far as I can tell, a lot of siderooms in various dungeons use those exit tiles
- Changing $7ECD00-$7ECDFF doesn't do a thing, it's simply information, right?
- Changing $7ECE00-$7ECEFF however changes the thing an Exit-Tile does
In any case, $7ECE00 seems incredibly high to reach with the Equipment glitch.. We would have for one, be able to clip out of the normal camera range and for two make the equipment menu usable without it getting stuck in the build-up loop
Edit: Oh yeah.. is it even possible to change values outside of 0x7ECC00 to 0x7ECCFF with the equipment glitch? Because that's what touch-me wrote in his notes.
Updated my previous post and.. a quick question:
What's the value that indicates whether we can use Flammie Drum/Magic Rope?
Edit: Fun fact, if you go through the wall at Medusa towards the top you can simply get into the Geshtar battle
0x87 would be the cutscene just before the Machine Rider #2
Edit 2: Haha... This does not seem to be the only value to influence which room I get teleported to using the exit tile.. I just managed somehow to get to two different locations with two different savestates.. I wonder if it's simply more than 1 byte.. I think it is. Since it's different by 1.. I really wonder how I did that..
Edit 3: I'm dumb sometimes. That was when I didn't use the Rope in first place but still changed the value around. That's the difference.. hm
Unfortunately, $7ECD08 seems like an impossibly high number to achieve within "normal space" for the Thrash glitch -> I assume we'd have to set it inside the room for it to work?
It's possible with "special" maps that happen to not wrap around with the camera.. sort-of.. Hard to explain - like the Mushroom Castle-Entrance. To see what I mean: Go for noclip on that map and simply walk to the left. Eventually the camera will stop and after a while you'll come out on the right. That's how you can set the menu x-position outside the usual boundaries.. Would be interesting to know why that happens anyways. You simply disappear all of a sudden.
Also, turtle island shop to potos doesn't seem to be that useful ^^.. Did you happen to post a list of room exits? I think I remember seeing something like that.. I really should keep a list of files in my Dropbox, so I can look it up on my laptop
Optimally we want to land near the 2nd Machine Rider to get the Flammie Drum early/earlier.
And another edit before I post: What is an "exit tile"? I'm not quite sure how it would work now.. Can you give an example on what we would have to do to warp from Turtle Island to Potos?
Edit: I played around a bit with the vaue $7ECD08 - It seems like setting it to a specific number (via emulator cheat codes) does not affect anything in that bugged small room. It will still behaves like usual when I use the door to exit.
The interesting part about this room (or more specifically: About that Room-Exit-Tile) is, that it does not set $7ECD08 unlike any other Exit-Tile I've tried out in the near vicinity.
- When using the Rope inside that room it sets the value $7ECD08 to the one of the "Current Room" $7E00DC. Also, using the exit-Tile now uses the x and y coordinates to where I used the Rope before
- When using the Rope inside that room and then exiting through that tile to the outside before the screen fades, using that exit-tile puts me now outside at the posted screenshot location. Basically it alters the x and y coordinates but keeps the "outside" room information in $7ECD08 as it is... Or my assumption is, it re-sets it to the one I just wanted to go to.
So... My conclusion so far is:
- That specific Exit-Tile does not have it's own x and y coordinates and room-to-go-to set and uses whatever the "last transition" was.. I'm reasonably sure we knew that already. But I really would like to know which values I have to alter to get to other locations.
I have yet to warp to a different location playing around with setting various values. I'm currently trying out the find RAM number-tool on on the emulator. But I have no experience with it, so I have no idea whether I can even find what I'm looking for.
Edit2: I think I got it. It seems to be $7ECE08. Altering it does.. Interesting things.
Also, I'm not completely correct here. That Exit-Tile behaves still correctly when entering the room. however, using the rope seems like it uses $7ECE08. The remarkable thing is, that this is exactly $000100 above. However, the sad thing is, that this is an even more unlikely value to reach with equipment glitch :/
Edit 3: playing around with that value even though we don't have a way to use it yet - Value "0x80" seems to be right before the Flammie Drum. Unless we could directly warp to the credits or the Mana Fortress I guess that would be more or less optimal... Didn't think that one through yet though.
Edit 4: interesting to note, if I warp to 256 (dec.. which is 0 actually..) it's the intro cutscene on the waterfall. it warps me, but it does not make my characters invisible.
0x00 = Intro Cutscene
0x01 = Elders House
0x02 =
0xC8 = nothing
0xDC = nothing
0xFE = nothing
0xFF = nothing
etc..
Interesting... I didn't know having the Girl or Sprite in the lead would have different effects on losing control on events.
You can for example activate the Mana Seeds while using the Magic Rope. The event will then simply occur at the entrance... I'm not sure that's useful. but certainly interesting. I can't think of a single application for the "slide-corridoors" or the Magic Rope + Rope Pole though.
Flammie Drum seems to behave different though. You completely lose control. Is there a way to keep control even for just a moment?
And... Edit before I even submit this: I just had a very...interesting incident. I went into the Pandora Castle, the bugged room just at before the main entrance to the left where you can use the Magic Rope (Normally you get permanently stuck there when using the Magic Rope in that room). However, when I used the Magic Rope and the immediately left the room, I got to this location:
http://s14.postimg.org/hoh04bq01/Unbenannt.jpg
What happened? o.o..
Oh.. With the binary it makes perfect sense now. I was too locked into thinking with the Hex digits that I didn't even realize what this meant - thank you, now the 1F-item is also logical.
I always wondered why the "item counter" (well.. left Hex-Digit) always goes in steps of 2 - I didn't realize that this is the reason.
Nothing happens. 7ECF0F is set to 2 to indicate that the inventory is full.
Yes, I also tested that. The Rope Chest simply disappears and it can never be attained anymore. So sadly nothing useful there.
I have disassembled most of this game already, which is where the information I have comes from. IDA Pro is required to read the disassembly. If needed, I can post the IDB file along with the files necessary for SNES support in IDA Pro.
I'll probably read up on what these things are - thanks for the pointer :)
edit: I don't know why I didn't think of the somscp.txt for the names list.. There's a ton of stuff written in there, thanks for reminding me
Quick question here: Are the enemies ordered by coding table-order? (or however that is called)
=> Why is the glitched item "F" called 'Blat'?
I mean, there are a total of 11 usable items. Each item has it's own number. 0 = Candy, 1 = Chocolate, etc.
- Barrel = ?
- Candy = 0
- Chocolate = 1
- Royal Jam = ?
- Cup of Wishes = ?
- Faerie Walnut = ?
- Medical Herb = 4
- Flammie Drum = ?
- Magic Rope = 6
- Midge Mallet = ?
- Moogle Belt = ?
- Midge Mallet = ?
touch-me describes in his notes:
In Secret of Mana, collected items are stored in 12bytes of RAMs: 1 item per 1 byte. There are 32 kinds of items and you can possess at most 7 items of the same kind (though usually limited by 4 items). In the memory, lower 5 bits indicates what kind of item you have, and upper 3 bits tells you how many items you have. For example, 0x40 means two candies and 0x20 is one candy, or 0x26 means one magic rope and 0x06 is zero magic ropes.
There are a total of "32 kinds of items". I would have assumed it's 16, since 0xF is the highest single digit Hex number. How are those ordered/stored in the memory?
My first assumption was, that the item 0xF is called "Blat" because it happens to take the name/values from the monster table.. But I really don't know.
Edit: Also, sorry for bugging you again, but: What happens if my item list is full, and I should receive a fixed item, such as the Flammie Drum, Escape Rope, Midge Mallet and Moogle Belt?
Edit2: Also, how do I get into the more coding-related-knowledge? I'd like to figure out these things myself so I don't have to bug you constantly, but I have no idea where to start ^^;
Ok, so in case this would NOT be simply a sound glitch it should've at least transported him outside, gotcha.
Way to ruin my hopes ;)
Thanks HHS
It's still interesting though, how the sound seems to glitch out like this, let me describe what happened:
- He is running through the Fire Temple
- The cloud casts level 4 Blaze Wall on the Girl
- Girl is AI controlled, running when caught
- Girl only has 9 HP left (would die if not healed)
- Luigimeister uses Medical Herb on Girl, controlling the Boy
- Luigimeister uses Chocolate right after on Girl, before Blaze Wall animation ends
- Sound occurs
My assumption is, that the sound effect for Chocolate/Medical Herb somehow got mixed/modified and called the wrong sound file... ?
Interesting occurrence:
http://www.twitch.tv/gaming_4_a_cure/b/394035267
~1:31:20
Flammie Drum sound plays.. It may simply be a sound glitch, but hopes are that it's an actual call to the Flammie Drum item
-> What happens if you would actually use the Flammie Drum indoors? Would simply the sound play, but nothing else happens?
Thanks a lot for the files, I'm not quite sure what to do with them yet, but I'll gladly look through them.
Ok, please bear with me I've never done that kind of Memory research / test / watching before. Feel free to correct me if I do anything wrong (well, I will most likely..). Also, I'm not even sure I'm using the correct notation.
For the X-position of the item Menu I assume its a value between 0x0000 and 0xFFFF is "possible". So technically we can access a range of memory adresses from 0x7ECC00 to 0x7FCBFF?
Or is the added value only a maximum of 0xFF? That would be 0x7ECC00 to 0x7ECCFF (Which would be what touch-me describes in his TAS-notes)
Now, the reason why I'm specifically asking whether the value can be greater than 0xFF is because I'm now watching memory address of the X-Value and using "2 bytes" I can see that the value changes between 0x0000 and 0xFFFF. Specifically, I currently have the value 0xFEF9 displayed on my screen by glitching with the screenwrap in the mushroom kingdom entrance.
Do you happen to have a list of values more specifically for the range in where we might be able to access the addresses with the Trashing of equipment?
Nvm, that's on your earlier page
Thank you HHS ^^
Edit: I think I just figured out why the Mushroom Kingdom entrance behaves in such a weird way. (As a note to what it actually does: When you move a certain distance past certain coordinates to the X or Y direction, your characters suddenly disappear and your menu glitches out when you open it - because the position of the menu is way off screen.) I just frost-neko-save-resetted after being glitched out and I happened to land in a similar (not sure if the same) version of the entrance of the mushroom kingom as it is used in the ending sequence/credits. The reason I know its a similar version is there is no collision on anything, you can walk straight through everything without having the invisiblity - exactly the same as when you reset in the credits and walk around there.
Edit2: Ok... I don't think I'm getting too far with the equipment glitch. I'm fairly sure I understood now how it works for the most part, however the problem is quite simply this:
7ecc00 Player names
7ecc24 Hats
7ecc30 Vests
7ecc3c Bracelets
7ecc48 Items
7ecc54 Weapons
7ecc6a Money
7ecc6d Button configuration x 3
7ecc73 Action grid quadrant x 3
7ecc76 Mana sword power
7ecc77 Man's old weapon when using Mana sword
7ecc78 Woman's mana magic timer
7ecc79 Sprite's mana magic timer
7ecc7a Action grid configuration x 3
7ecc7d Auto charge configuration x 3
[...]
7ecf00 Sword picked up
According to your value list, there is a huge gap between some options the story elements. Now - even though I can access some extremely high X-coordinates via the glitched menu, I can not use it. As soon as I open the ring menu and it happens to be off-screen, activating the equipment seems to quite simply softlock the game.
So, this basically means - I'm roughly 0x200 short of a useful value, regardless on whether it would actually subtract more than a max. of 0xFF.
Btw. I recommend using noclip to skip getting the Mana Sword in the beginning and mess around with it. It has some very... interesting - and almost creepy - effects.
EDIT: I actually thought about the "we cannot create items" some more. That's not entirely true. We can in fact "create" BLAT. While this is basically nothing more than selling "nothing" and creating 7 total of that "nothing", it proves that we can change the values to a high number in those areas... Or more like, those numbers already are fairly high (FF FF FF FF..). Now, subtracting the correct amount might result in an early Flammie drum?...
I'd love to know whether that is actually possible.
Can you tell me what the individual values of the items actually are? - Got that
Edit 5: And... Maybe how much the individual armors/helmets/armlets subtract from the value?
Editomania: For the calculation in the RAM when unequipping-glitch, does the value actually subtract or add? I mean "No item" is signified by the memory readin "0xFF" for one slot. So actually subtracting the correct amount from the correct position would do the trick to get the Flammie drum early?
Editorsagain: So... I did some calculation and used touch-mes numbers considering the reduction.. And I think I misunderstood the part before about the reduction, so that's discarded. So now I know the hex-values reduced are always 0x40, 0x80 and 0xC0.
Since the number on the "right" indicates the item type there is probably no way to change that via equipment glitch oô.. I'm pretty sure you already wrote that, HHS, but at least now I understand it ^^
Editingeverythingnotreally:
The variables at 7ECD00 and up are related to calling Flammie, I think (saves information about the current screen to show for the landing).
Impressive how much better I understand this statement now than I did before 3 hours. You say it's related to "calling flammie", I assume thats simply the "depart" location of it? Since, if you Frost-Forest-Neko-Reset in on Flammie in the Mode 7 you still end up at the location you called Flammie from, that probably doesnt help. Unless you tell us that we can actually make the Flammie call from there somehow ^
Edit: Unless.. It swaps over?
Edit, the next day: I wonder, does the trashing equip glitch only work with throwing stuff away as the Girl?
Nevermind, I think I understand it now
Ok, so that probably also means that the numbers never go from 0 to the highest possible number when trashing items (I think underflow is the term?) - so it's not possible to get a higher value when its already 0?
The Flammie calling would be very interesting... If you could call Flammie anywhere, this would completely break the game.
Other than that... Do the values for the "last entrance" happen to be there somewhere? I mean those that are not set when you land in the Frost Forest at the Neko and save there and you can use to savewarp with that savegame anywhere you last soft-reset to?
What does the "X position of the last menu item" mean exactly? Is that the absolute value of the X-position on the current map, or is it something relative to the characters?
Again, thank you for your time :)
Edit: I skimmed through the thread but I probably missed it - wasn't there a list values with description what they actually do somewhere?
Thank you for your insight, HHS :)
Funny how that works out from leftover code. I did not expect a potential New Game+ to be the reason for this. This probably also means, that there is no way to create this glitch outside of the beginning area?
Another question - In the submission comments from Touch-me (http://tasvideos.org/3311S.html) he mentiones the Equipment Glitch. Do you (or anyone else for that matter) know whether it could be technically possible to "create" items that you don't own yet?
I'm still trying to understand how this works out in the first place.. Is there a simple explanation for how it works?
And one more thing - On certain screens you can make your Ring Menu appear outside the screen by going past the wrap-around-boundaries (walking through walls with the Invisibility), but the screen doesnt move along (happens in front of the Mushroom Castle). Would that affect the Equipment glitch in some way?
Thank you for your time
Edit: In the submission comments he mentions "GP" as one of the changable values. Would that technically mean, that you could change the GP-amount under certain conditions by throwing away equipment? Could that be potentially faster than executing the money glitch? (Probably not, but its a possibility?)
Edit2 : One more thing about resetting in the cutscenes: Some door/screen-transition triggers are set in the cutscene-stages and they always send you to certain locations (seems to be tile-based, since certain more broad-screen transition triggers lead to multiple locations). Easiest tested by resetting in the start-cutscene on the mana-fortress entrance. The top door leads to the Frost Forest. I don't think there is a way to manipulate the destination though, is there?
Ok, Luigimeister and me figured out some interesting stuff regarding soft-resets and specifically the first cutscene. We managed to complete the sequence break from when you acquire Flammie, directly going to Jochs trial without completing the palaces first and then shortcutting our way more or less directly to the Snap Dragon after defeating the Aegagropilon (or as we call it, Watermelon).
The skip directly to the Snap Dragon is - while not a huge time gain over the current route - necessary because we don't have the required spells to activate the orbs to progress (namely Lumina and Shade) due to the previous skip.
Here's what we do step-by-step
1. Get a Frost Neko Save
2. Reset (No need to hold for 5 sec)
3. Start a new game and get to the Cutscene where the boy will fall down
4. 5-sec-Reset (Hold)
5. Load the Frost Neko Save
6. You now have the actor glitch. Heal one of the characters and call Flammie
7. Go over to Jochs place
8. Actor Glitch your way into the Dopples Area and go defeat the Dopples
9. Go to the sunken continent and beat the Watermelon
10. Get another Frost Neko Save
11. Get the Actor Glitch again
12. Fly over to the Sunken Continent
13. Use 2 controllers with 1 person being actor glitched - while the textbox ("we can't go on" or something like that) is open, you can go through walls
14. Get onto the staircase to the right
15. Get to the previous room through various means and then go back to the main room where NOW Snap Dragon awaits
16. Proceed as 'normal' (as in, defeat the Machine Rider 3 and then skip the Barrier going directly into the Mana Fortress)
Now, the interesting part is this "Actor glitch". I don't even know whether that's the proper name for this thing, but that's simply what we called it. Does anyone know exactly what happens here?
http://www.twitch.tv/luigimeister/c/2156556
Some known characteristics of that state
- Characters are invisible
- It's removed by healing or taking magic damage
- Calling Flammie or Barrelling characters does NOT remove the state
- Some enemies can't seem to hit you (~Dopples)
- While a textbox blocks one character, the glitched character has essentially "noclip"
- You can walk through map-transitions without triggering them
- You can talk to specific "loaded" NPCs from anywhere on the map by simply pressing "B" (No idea how those are determined)
- When hitting a Rope-Pole, normally your characters briefly stop. However, a glitched character does not stop and during this short time he can noclip to anywhere
- Status effects such as "unconscious" does NOT remove the state
Any ideas as to "what" this glitched state actually is?
Quick question - does anyone know how the defense down from Acid Rain works? I don't think it's useful in a TAS, but might give an edge in normal runs if it hits certain key values
Interesting, do you also know what exactly happens during these 64 NAS Frames?
Also, how do you figure all these things out? Did you disassemble (no clue if correct word) the complete game? o-o
Edit: I mean, currently I keep getting ideas where I need little pieces of information. If I could find these things out myself I wouldn't have to bother you ^^;
And... Speaking of keep getting ideas: In your huge post on Page 22 you mention:
If the character's magic skill is 8, the spell will only be at level 7 unless magic experience is greater than Random*128+1, although the game will call it level 8.
This basically means, that a normal runner shouldn't bother to get spells above level 7, since at the "Level 8" I merely get a ->chance<- to to cast a level 8 spell, is that correct?
Edit 2: I just somehow managed to make the bridge appear on the sunken continent, just after I got Flammie... But it didn't help me at all, since one character is stuck in a dialog, which then sends me outside again when cancelled..
Edit 3: Also, for some reason the "which character controlls flammie" seems a bit weird.. Might be normal though and I simply never noticed before.
