Posts for Yagamoth


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Oh.. Thank you for posting, I did not know about this I wonder what kind of strategies I can gleam from this ^^ Although I have to admit, it's a bit hard to watch with all those texts scrolling across the screen. I assume this was screen capped from nicovideo, so not an original upload? Although I don't know how to find the original Edit: hm.... Is this the same TAS that's been on Nico since a few years? This seems to still not know about the stepcounter overflow and also splits Moria into 2 parts It's pretty good, certainly better than I could do RTA, but I wonder what the reason would be to not implement the other tricks
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How large are the RNG values? 1byte? 2 bytes? 4 bytes? Or maybe more? Edit: I've done a bit of testing, and came up with a few questions we would need to answer to figure out whether manipulating RNG to any extent is doable: - What determines the initial state of the battle? - Which addresses are relevant for inside the battle once it's running? - Can we predict what the next RNG number change is going to be, based on knowing the current RNG? - Can we work backwards from ingame numbers (damage done/received, action taken, enemy formation, etc.) in order to figure out the current state of RNG we are on? I did a bit of testing with a battle, to see whether I could figure out anything by just looking at some numbers and see what changed when I changed stuff, and whether I could reproduce certain behaviors consistently. I created a savestate with a solo berserker just 1 step away from a battle => Opening a menu and moving around the cursor changes what initially happens in the battle. That much is already known => Opening and just closing the menu sets a few values I've been watching to a set state. However, even if I have the same numbers in the addresses I'm watching, I can get different results. Basically, I'm not watching everything there is to see in addresses °-° The current ones I'm looking at is: 000150 000152 000153 000155 000156 000158
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Alright, I got it. Things are running now :) Now to find time to investigate whether RNG manipulation is reasonably possible via console
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Hello \o/ First of all, thank you so much for the detailed response, also the the pm with the files, this is really awesome. I didn't realize there was already someone looking into this :D Antlion is a real pain with low level characters, I agree. And from what you told me, you actually do that with a solo Berserker as well... That's crazy o_o; So, from what I gathered when you dropped by my stream earlier and also write, there's the 2 RNGs we need to manipulate in order to achieve the end-result. Now, I have a few questions: - You mentioned the RNG changing depending on how much time we spend on the titlescreen. Is this just a framecounter? - What makes the RNG change, that is just purely gameplay-related? Let's say, I have a Save at Necrophobias spot, load it, walk over to Exdeath, scroll through the dialogue, and start the fight. What would be factors? - You posted the RAM map. So, the RNG is affected by all values up to: -- RNG A: 7E03E8 -- RNG B: 7E07D0 -- I don't think I'm starting in the right place, do I? - What's the "SHA1" thing when I try to play back the movies? something doesn't work for me °-°;
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Greetings, I'm currently looking for information to figure out, whether some form of RNG manipulation is possible. I'm currently theory-crafting a potential way to complete a Solo character-Berserker-only-run on console, and try to look into, whether that is viable. As some of you may know, a solo-berserker run is supposed to be theoretically beatable, as this video demonstrates: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HtXNPuTpja0 However, it apparently took a tremendous amount of retries to get this completed, which makes it not quite reasonable to attempt on console, by just attempting to rely on sheer luck. In short, what I'm hoping to do is - Create a LUA script to figure out possible RNG-values that would lead to a successful fight - Figure out what the current RNG-state is on a savefile on console - From there, figure out some manipulation to reach the successful RNG values and execute it on console Well... I don't actually know, whether this is even possible. But you may hopefully enlighten me
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Question @HHS: I remember you writing something about a boss not being hit-able while a certain flag was set. Which address was that flag? Thank you
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A similar thing happens to me on Secret of Mana on BizHawk - but only on one monitor specifically, not on the other one, I'm not sure what that exactly is about. But older BizHawk versions seem to work fine
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So, I managed to reproduce it reliably. From what I understand, the necessary steps are as follows: 1) Cast freeze twice on the orb 2) Activate the switch to make the stairway appear 3) Get into the staircase relatively fast, but not too fast o_o That's all there is to it.. Interesting
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Wow... No, I did not know about that o_o Fascinating.. I'll need to look into this. Also - no, there is no progress so far on the TAS, sorry q-q lrighty... Let's go through the Minorous skip step by step. What we may need to consider: 0) It's the Japanese version, which has some trouble with event-disowning happening by accident after bosses. However, this doesn't necessarily have to be relevant to be specifically the Japanese version. But it could 1) He specifically switched his main character to the Sprite before the Undine Orb room 2) Casts Freeze on the orb inside the room, then switches to the lady and casts a 2nd Freeze.. 3) Then immediately after channeling the 2nd freeze, he replenishes the Sprite MP with a Faerie Walnut 4) Afterwards he steps on the event-switch to make the stairway appear with the girl 5) Then he switches to the Sprite and goes into the room... It's interesting that the Sprite actually started charging up his weapon for a brief instant there.. But that may just have been an AI weapon charge flag set still 6) Then somehow the beginning of the battle arena intro doesn't play, and they run through to the screen... The arena never gets locked up or the boss battle initiated Either way, I have no clue how that could happen. From what I understand, he basically skipped the arena-closing-event somehow
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Oh wow... That's how it happened? I've done the 2 minutes wait before on my Sprite solo challenge ^^... https://youtu.be/av3TtkKBcf0 It's interesting - I wonder whether they realized the buffs wouldn't work out when the Mana Beast has Wall status with the self buffs (Kind of like Mech Rider III actually behaves) and just decided to make the portion of the code invalid that would execute them
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So, I have a question: What makes Tropicallo stay above ground when you hit him?
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During my recent 'glitchless' (ironically) I stumbled upon a new glitch that we didn't know about before. Crow managed to catch it's significance when I didn't even think about it. Short version: You can transfer the stats of one weapon and use it with the animation of another weapon Quote from Crow from the SDA forums:
During his new WR "Glitchless" run, Yagamoth discovered a way to temporarily use the stats of one weapon while utilizing the attack animations of a different one. Because "Glitchless." This might have applications in the 1c Spikey Tiger and Blue Spike fights, as well as 2c Spikey Tiger if things go very wrong. Here's the glitch: - Equip the weapon whose animations you want. For example, the Bow. - Cause a character to have numbers appear on top of him. Any color will do; use a Candy, or take damage, or whatever. - Use X to command the character to equip something that nobody currently has equipped. For example, the level 3 Spear. --- Note that the character's weapon is greyed out - you're not supposed to be able to alter his weapon at this time. However, the OTHER weapons can still be selected, and that's the glitch. - Once the numbers fade, you'll apparently still have the original weapon in hand, but its stats are those of the new one. In our example: --- The Bow will be as strong as the level 3 Spear. --- You can charge up the Bow to whatever weapon experience level you have for the Spear. --- Your Arrows will inflict Balloon. --- As you score kills, you gain experience for the Spear. - The effects of this glitch will fade when the game does a "weapon update." This can be triggered by status effects such as Pygmy and Barrel, or by going from an area where your weapons are not out to an area where they are, or by equipping a weapon during a more normal time, or explicitly by certain plot events. Other cases where a character's weapon gets greyed out (say, while a spell animation is playing) do not seem to work for this glitch; only the numbers animation seems to work. (As a side note, changing your weapon as a Saber animation is playing will reliably give you a "fake saber," like what sometimes happens after Frost Gigas.) Along similar lines, in a previous run Yagamoth discovered that you can have the special effects associated with a previous weapon attached to the stats of a newly forged weapon; for example, until a "weapon update" happens, when the Imp's Fork that is forged into the Elf's Harpoon, it retains the ability to inflict the Balloon status.
I wonder whether there are implications we didn't think of yet ^^
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Sweet, thank you for this list. To create a short list of enemies that have altitude changes that could be relevant. + Arena-related height difference (No clue whether that's sufficient/relevant, didn't test yet) ° Move-related height difference ° Mantis Ant +° Spiky Tiger + Jabberwocky +° Spring Beak + Ice Gigas + Vampire ° Metal Mantis +° 2nd Spiky Tiger ° Aegrogopilon +° 2nd Spring Beak ° Buffy Now to figure out which "number" the defensive hitbox actually is that is written in the memory value.. Somehow o.o Edit: I just figured out, that we can retain the charge-attacks via multitap-disabling without opening the menu. (If only there was an emulator that supports that kind of input :P ) I'm now wondering whether there is a sequence of inputs with which we could retain the charge-attacks just by switching characters around on the various controllers. For reference, how we do the charge-retainmnents is pretty simple: Controller 1: Charge up by holding B Controller 2: Open menu Controller 1: Release B Controller 2: Close menu Controller 1: Re-Press B before the menu fully closes Another method to retain charge-attacks is -> Have the AI charge up and then press Select to switch to the charging character and then quickly hold B before the attack-animation starts. From what I can tell, the method to this is, that the game realizes, that the original charger released the charge-attack, but at the same time the 2nd check that resets the charge-flag comes in too late and you're already holding B again
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So.. I assume the Spring Beaks "Beak"-hitbox is the bonking sound you refer to? Or maybe his legs? Also - how is it determined which value is affected? It seems oddly specific to have the height difference be exactly 59 pixels (118 half pixels). Or is that just the value that affects the Boomerang? Thank you for that information - that might actually be useful for the TAS if I can enhance the Boomerangs damage slightly
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Wow.. This sounds fantastic A few questions: - Can this be done before we have the boomerang? => Thinking of missing the Mantis Ant that exact way instead - Do all 3 characters have to miss the boss at the exact same time? Or can that be staggered? - I assume, the characters change the number from 0 to 7? Like, +1 for the Boy, +2 for the Girl and +3 for the Sprite? - Does the boss have to be hit-able? As in, technically vulnerable? Or would a miss on the Spiky Tiger work as well when he jumps? - Can you see a possible setup where we won't need to forge a weapon and still be able to level it up past level 1? This is really exciting, thank you so much :D Edit: One more question: - Does it specifically change the Boomerang into other things? => If we could change other things like... An item from 0x20 (1 Candy) into 0x27 (1 Flammie Drum) this would have a very interesting effect ^^
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So, little update on both the weird Boomerang glitch and the TAS: Crow mentioned, the variable that determines the Boomerang state actually gets touched during the end screen of the game. I believe it wasn't the first run of the day, so that might be something Also on the TASing: -> Your script is just too amazing/insanely good HHS. My respect, it's fantastic -> But that also means, since I don't really have any means to convert it to LSNES, I've started TASing on SNES9x now I've now reached the Water Palace after ~5 days of TASing. On the 3rd day I started over, switching from LSNES to Snes9X in order to use your script.. But I didn't need to redo much, since I literally hadn't beaten the first Rabite yet. Thanks to (understanding) the crit script, it went A LOT smoother afterwards. A little overview, comparing to touch-me s TAS: Note: I only started to really understand how getting onto/off stairs worked starting in Potos village. I may have lost 1-3 frames earlier to that. C: Current TAS N: New TAS -> Frames gained => --/++ Notes Start: I decided to use the name "TAS" instead of just using "A", which costs some time and also gives me a bit of a different starting setup. I just think it's nice to have a TAS identified as such immediately :) After initial cutscene C: 6231 N: 6337 -> -106 => -106 -- Frames lost due to inputting name "TAS" And it being displayed during textboxes Reaching the next little cutscene on the left C: 6459 N: 6565 -> +0 Frames => -106 Frames total -- 2 Frames lost due to leaving the water frame rules, but touch-me somehow had 2 unnecessary steps in there After little cutscene C: 6644 N: 6756 -> -6 => -112 -- 6 Frames lost due to printing out the name 3 times Reaching the cut-grass cutscene on the right C: 6935 N: 7037 -> +10 => -102 ++ Gained 10 frames moving past the stairs more efficiently Cut-grass cutscene done C: 7054 N: 7157 -> -1 => -103 -- Lost one frame to the name display... One frame?.. Should be 2... Not sure why only 1 Reaching the sword C: 7166 N: 7267 -> +2 => -101 ++ Not sure where I gained the two frames. Probably due to frame rules on getting into the water Sword cutscene C: 10076 N: 10180 -> -3 => -104 -- 12 Frames lost due to longer name ++ 9 Frames gained because of better screen positioning (centering the screen didn't take as long) Leaving to the next screen + Initial textbox C: 10582 N: 10673 -> -91 => +14 ++ 14 Frames gained due to better leaving of the water and slashing down the brushes more optimally (Touch-me didn't know about the slashing frame-rules yet I guess) -- 1 Frame lost due to longer name (Should be 2..) Note, if we ignore the time lost due to the name, overall I technically gained 35 frames already before the first enemy First Rabite screen C: 11573 N: 11857 -> -193 => -284 -- 17 Frames lost on the first Rabite because it's impossible to manipulate a crit within time -> Using 2 slashes -- 1 Frame lost in order to manipulate Rabite spawns in the top right ++ 4 Frames gained due to better movement in the top portion -- 179 Frames lost because I killed 3 additional Rabites (Aiming to get Sword to level 1 before Tropicallo) 2nd Rabite screen C: 12150 N: 12470 -> -36 => -320 -- ~46 frames invested in killing the Rabite before the bridge ++ 10 frames gained due to better movement Reaching the Elder cutscene C: 12576 N: 12898 -> -2 => -322 -- Lost 2 frames to frame rules (Going below with delayed dashing was 1 frame faster than going above like Touch-me though) Mantis Ant intro done C: 15841 N: 16163 -> +0 => -322 -- Should have been 8 frames lost due to the name being mentioned 4 times.. Mantis Ant defeated C: 17974 N: 18134 -> +162 => -160 -- 162 Frames gained due to only needing 5 hits total (=optimal amount of hits) and quicker critical hit manipulation After Victory-Cutscene + Leaving the village C: 20268 N: 20428 -> +0 => -160 -- No frames lost despite the name being called in the after-victory cutscene ++ 4 Frames gained entering the house to better pathing -- No frames lost in the cutscene in the house ++ 5 Frames gained running to the Hippie guy due to bether pathing Through the field to the Water Palace C: 23456 N: 23631 -> -15 => -175 -- Different kill route, I killed 2 Rabites instead of just one Flower, 1 less experience, but better Sword Experience (Only 3 more enemies until the Sword levels up) -- Killed the first Rabite with 2 swings, lined up perfectly for a critical hit on the Rabite after the first bridge -- Manipulated the flower on the left of the river to not spawn, leaving a longer route to run open That's all for now. From what I know, level 1 sword should be saving a lot of time on Tropicallo - Note, I have not tested it yet. But from what I can tell considering the RNG behavior and how limited the influence over it is (mostly waiting), being able to prepare a charge attack should overall reduce the amount of swings required and speed up the killing by a good margin.
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Quick question to HHS: How does your script for for critical hits? I'm currently trying to pick up SoM for TASing, but the critical hits leave me stumped. I have no clue how those work. Also, is your script compatible with lSNES?
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Does the multitap actually have a switch on it for control? I don't remember this, maybe my memory is flawed...
Yes, as mentioned earlier - There is a switch that you can flip in order to switch between 2-controller and multicontroller handling. No physical unplugging and replugging is required. You literally just flip the switch :)
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I recently encountered a new weird bug: http://www.twitch.tv/yagamoth/v/27153078 Short version: Somehow my Boomerang became a Chakram right before or after beating Spring Beak. I have no idea where it exactly happened, but the assumption is, that it is related to the Spring Beak, as he drops a Boomerang Orb. Note: The Boomerang-weapon was still rank 1 (only possible to charge up to level 1) despite being a Chakram (which is normally the rank 2 weapon). Later on I farmed the Ninja Masters in order to gain the last Boomerang Orb and went to upgrade the Boomerang as much as possible... And it became a Pole Dart... According to Crow, upgrading other things has some weird and interesting effects. Here's his post: https://forum.speeddemosarchive.com/post/secret_of_mana_1190.html#secret_of_mana_1190 Also, I'm going to start TASing Secret of Mana tomorrow for a full week. See how far I can get. My biggest worry are really manipulating the critical hits. I have no idea how to approach this outside of just brute forcing it
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Thank you for all the responses so far Just to give you a quick example of what we use the multitap for in 1 player 2 controller speedruns: https://youtu.be/VrDkcPhHUWQ?t=43m33s - Talking to an NPC normally locks your character into place - But talking with the 3rd controller, then deactivating the multitap with the switch reassigns that character to be AI controlled and I can just walk during the cutscene and mash through the textbox with L/R Just to make sure you guys understand what I mean: It's not technically unplugging the 3rd controller. Unplugging does not do anything. It's specifically deactivating the multitap-switch on the device that forces this reaction. What I -think- it does is, it sends the SNES a signal that says, that more than just one controller is going to be connected. Specifically that signal is activated/deactivated when I flip the switch on that device. This prompts the game to check whether there is a 3rd controller active, and disables it if that's the case. You can actually test this behavior on SNES9x emulator. Set the: "Config -> Controls -> Use Super Multitap (5-player)" in the emulator. Get a 2nd character in the game and press START on the 3rd controller (a small [3] will show up on the characters portrait). Then you just go into the SNES9X menu and set "Config -> Controls -> Use SNES joypad(s)". The 2nd character will instantly be back in AI control. Note, the little [3] in the character portrait will only disappear on screen change
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Thank you very much for the quick response. So this would be a reasonable way to TAS this game Now I only hop there is an available solution for the activating and deactivating the multitap on the fly :)
Post subject: TAS Multitap activation/deactivation? (SNES)
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Greetings everyone, I recently decided to tackle the TASing Secret of Mana (SNES) Now the problem I'm currently facing is, that I can't seem to find a preferable emulator which supports the usage of Multitaps. For a little overview, as to why I need multitap functionality: - Secret of Mana can be played with up to 3 players, so a lot of optimizations can be done with 3 controllers - Specificially activating/deactivating the multitap during gameplay saves a fair bit of time as well, since SoM has a built-in check to disable the 3rd controller in case no multitap is connected (Which allows for walking in some cutscenes) --> Every multitap has a switch to switch between 2 controllers and 3+ controllers. That's the activating/deactivating I'm talking about lSNES seems to have multitap functionality, but I can't seem to figure out how it works. Any pointers would be nice BizHawk does not support multitap at all from what I can read from the documentation logs Snes9X does feature multitap functionality, but it's not really an acceptable emulator to TAS anymore. Further, to my knowledge I can't simply activate/deactivate it during gameplay Is there an emulator I'm missing that would work with 3+ controllers?
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So, reviving an old thread to add some information just in case someone might be interested in picking up a TAS for this awesome game in the future. I'm currently picking up this game as a speedrun and I'm in the progress of creating a reasonable route for a single segment run. Thanks to the information here in this thread posted I've figured out a few extensions to the Stepcounter stuff, I've found an interesting (but probably pointless) glitch from the youtube to make your main character an unkillable zombie and I've also found something new but probably also useless, that you can run away from boss battles. Stepcounter & Stepcounter extensions As it was already mentioned here, certain actions increase the stepcounter, which can be useful to push it past 255. Surprisingly, almost anything that requires you to push the "action" button will increase the counter by 1, even if it doesn't do anything. Pressing "action" on switches that don't react anymore because they are pressed, reading signs from the side, breaking down walls, stepping on switches, etc. How does that help? If you use a Holy Bottle just before such an action, you will guarantee a overflowed stepcounter, resulting in absolutely no encounter in that room anymore, and the next room will start at 255 steps. Even before you have Holy Bottles it can be useful, plus it can extend the longevity of individual bottles, giving more availability to run in dungeons and reach inherently 0-step rooms. Mini-Tutorial I made for potential realtime speedrunners https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5LVq6idRvOw In this example I 'read' a sign from the sign, avoiding the textbox and increasing the counter as fast as I can mash the A-button. (I assume a TAS could increase the stepcounter by 30 times per second). Later on in that dungeon I spam A in front of a statue to extend the Holy Bottle I received from the golem to last until I reach the 0-stepcounter room (Timing it so I avoid both, a probable encounter before and a certain encounter after picking up the red gem) and then also entering the main hall with just a little Holy Bottle left, which will set the stepcounter to 255, regardless whether it'll run out 2 steps in. Avoiding overworld encounters On the overworld you can avoid encounters by walking into terrain that pushes you to a side, just as the stepcounter would reach 0. It's as simple as that. In the realtime speedrun I'll try to route some points where I'll use a Holy Bottle in a specific place and take a very specific route, but a TAS would be able to take complete advantage of unbottled areas and probably completely avoid having to use Holy Bottles on the overworld. From what I can tell, unfortunately it doesn't work in dungeons. Running from boss battles If you equip the +50% flee-speed accessory you can run from boss battles. It takes around ~1.5 minutes and is susceptible to being interrupted. What happens after differs from boss to boss. Example for running from Gnome where I discovered this in my casual playthrough: http://www.twitch.tv/yagamoth/v/17566310 I tried it on many other boss encounters, with varying results. Usually I was just able to roam in the bossroom a little, rarely ever able to do much. Sometimes potentially skip/ignore a boss encounter, but it seems to be never really worth it, as it takes quite the setup to survive and a long time to run away compared to just beating the bosses. In general the triggers to enter boss battles are not deactivated until the bosses are beaten. So if you try to walk through them, the bossfight simply starts a 2nd time. Funnily enough, it usually spawns a multitude of the character and boss sprites.. You could potentially overload and crash the game doing this. Although at some point it seems to simply stop loading sprites. The most promising boss-flee was on the Midgard-Fields battle, where you fight a dragon at the end. He is pretty easy to run away from in terms of setting it up, and - most importantly - you can actually enter Dhaos' castle early and even defeat him. In theory you'd skip the scene in the castle where you'd lose Gungnir and have the airbattle. The problem however is twofold: 1) You don't get Indignation, which is a ridiculously effective spell against Dhaos and Thor enemies. May not be as much of a problem for a TAS. But... 2) The "can't leave town" trigger in Midgard and the "battlefield" event on the fields are never cleared unless you beat the boss and play out the events. Since you have to cross the fields to get to the unicorn forest, you won't be able to reach there.. At least I haven't figured out how outside of simply going to kill the fieldboss. Two flee examples: - In the pegasus airfight you simply start the next battle in the set - In the coliseum you just straight up lose Zombie glitch Very simple: If you get killed by an enemy and petrified at the same time, you can remove the petrification outside of combat and Cress(Cless) will be alive with 0 HP. He can not be killed at all and functions like a fully alive character, no downsides. (Petrification and Paralyzation still count as loss condition). One would think this would be useful of a non-TAS speedrun, but unfortunately currently I have found no application for it. None of the bosses after Demitel are threatening enough to be an issue with the availability of spamming spells with Arche and Klarth(Clause). Setting it up with a save + reset costs me about ~1min assuming I'm already in the area. Of course a TAS would be faster, but.... Problems with that are: - Any levelup on Cress will 'heal' you above 0 HP, removing the Zombie status (Even if you are already at 9999 HP through HP+ items). So generally it's only useful for one boss battle - There are many, many little healing cutscenes that remove your zombie status - Environmental damage like Odins tower will not work to set up Zombie (not sure if it kills if you are already a Zombie) - There are very few enemies that petrify Minor - Using an hourglass/Chronoglass to get behind NeoDhaos is super simple, and will completely crush him as he doesn't do anything to anyone behind him. - I managed to open the menu just before entering loading-triggers on the overworld, and save. When loading that savefile it would simply immediately load the zone after spawning briefly on the overworld. The way to do is is weird: You save BEFORE stepping on the tile and then simply stepping on the tile holding X. If you don't save before, it won't open the menu before loading the zone (no idea why that works). So... Most of all, thanks a ton to Vykan12 for your run comments and insightful commentary on your testrun. This gave me a lot of base to work with. It's unfortunate that the run doesn't "look" exciting enough to TAS it, but to me it's a ton of fun to route :)
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Cross reference to the GameFAQs forums where Regrs managed to get more information: http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/588646-secret-of-mana/69150657/826294918
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It happened, we finally have footage from a speedrun where one of the characters completely disappeared :D http://www.twitch.tv/incroyablebb/c/6853352 I really wonder what happened there and how to reproduce it though oô